High Winds: Putting theory into practice

[FlyingBlueJay 0]

A few weeks ago on an otherwise perfect day for jumping, the weather man (or woman) was calling for wind accelerating through the day. I made one jump early on with a steep, but uneventful landing and felt comfortable doing so.
After I had finished packing up again, I stepped outside to find that the winds had indeed picked up significantly, now gusting to ~23/24 mph from speeds between 13 and 18 mph. The uppers were also honking along! (30mph at 3000) I looked around and most of the experienced guys were sitting out, and I decided to stay off the loads myself.

Another jumper with experience and jump numbers comparable to my own said something I found interesting after I told him I was staying off.
It was "How are you ever going to learn to jump in high winds if you don't jump in high winds."

Though we shut down for most of the day and I waited until sunset when things had calmed down again to jump, I think he had a good point and it made me think "what if the wind picks up heavily while I'm in the plane one day and I don't know how to get myself down safely because I've never done it when I was prepared for it."
It seems to me like it is yet another valuable skill to have in your arsenal of things that might save your life.
Knowing the theory behind jumping in high winds is important, but is it something that we should put in to practice as well from time to time?

I hope some of you more experienced jumpers might be able to shed some light on the subject. Have you ever jumped in high winds to prepare for a situation like the one stated above, or do you stick to the idea that it's better to be on the ground wishing you were in the sky than in the sky wishing you were on the ground. i.e. you would not intentionally jump in high winds.

Hope you all had a fantastic weekend jumping and I look forward to the responses.
Blues,
-R

edited to clarify a mistake

There is an art, or rather a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss. Pick a nice day, and try it. - Douglas Adams

[pchapman 262]

There's little point jumping in high winds if there are other associated risks -- like dust devils, an approaching thunderstorm, or really strong gusts.

But one could certainly work ones' way up, gradually getting used to jumping in stronger winds, in situations where the wind is judged by experienced jumpers to be unpleasant but not particularly dangerous.

One doesn't need to learn to jump when most others are standing down. But there are times the wind is strong, most people are jumping, yet some are afraid to jump and choose to stand down. They may be unsure of themselves, unsure how to plan their approach, or squeamish about any turbulence and bouncing around under canopy.

While nothing says one has to jump at any time, it can be handy to be comfortable with dealing with stronger winds.

So, yes, I'd recommend slowly starting to jump in higher winds. Coaching and advice beforehand could of course help. One needs to figure out what is just scary (because one isn't used to it or trained for it), versus actually dangerous.

For many years I jumped a big accuracy canopy and I never felt I had to stand down before others did. It just takes more planning, and does make the landing more of a challenge than easy fun. These days there seem to be enough newer jumpers who are afraid of moderately strong winds because they don't think they have a high enough wing loading, even when one could quite easily and safely go up with a student canopy, if one flies it right.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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I hope some of you more experienced jumpers might be able to shed some light on the subject.

High Wind Landing Approaches
High Wind Landings
Get-Home-itis
also
Avoiding Canopy Collisions - not targeted to high wind issues, altho it is mentioned.

Do not jump in high winds on purpose, but the winds can come up after exit (even with a ground winds check on jump run).

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[jsaxton 0]

13-24 is dangerous no matter your experience level.
That is > 10kts gust.

While I may be comfortable jumping in 25kts (I learned at Byron) the winds must be steady for me to do that.

A 10kt differential is too high to be safe.

[Stuntbabex 0]

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"what if the wind picks up heavily while I'm in the plane one day and I don't know how to get myself down safely because I've never done it when I was prepared for it."

Well my whole philosophy on that is that the more times you jump in high winds or hazardous conditions, the higher your chances are for getting hurt, whether youre skilled, practiced, and experienced. You think those experienced jumpers have never flown in high winds and dont know how to? They most likely have and know how to get themselves on the ground. But they still dont jump. Why? unnecessary risk.

If theres high winds, I follow my elder fellow jumpers. Ive had one backwards landing in the past and it was terrifying. Dont intend on experiencing it again unless I absolutely have to.

Thats just my opinion on the matter.

[Broke 0]

AS was said at skyfest, "It is time to watch some people become experianced."

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192

[grue 1]

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13-24 is dangerous no matter your experience level.
That is > 10kts gust.

While I may be comfortable jumping in 25kts (I learned at Byron) the winds must be steady for me to do that.

A 10kt differential is too high to be safe.

Well put. I'm less interested in the static speed than the swing of the gusts and the direction it's coming from. Just because a student is allowed to jump a 14kt wind doesn't mean he should be jumping when it's 5 gusting to 14, after all.

cavete terrae.

[gavi_omen 0]

A few months back I decided to continue jumping in moderate winds with high gusts. Coming in for landing my canopy collapsed at 50-100 feet. I was lucky in that it re-inflated AS I was flaring. I walked away alright, but it could have killed me.

I think that the thing about jumping in high winds is that it is not just a question of experience but also the equipment that is being jumped. There are always factors that need to be weighted and it should be the jumper as well as those of seniority who make those decisions.

I agree with the other jumper's statement about learning to jump in high winds, but it also comes down to simply applying what you already know to the situation.

Think about downwind landings. People practice downwind landings in preparation for an emergency situation where they might be forces to, but think about what they are really doing. They are practicing for an emergency by creating one. Don't. When the time comes to deal with a situation, deal with it. But don't do something stupid so that you can practice doing something stupid in case you get stuck in a bad situation. That's just...stupid.

There's no such thing as free will; everything is dictated by the Uncertainty Principle.

[Butters 0]

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A few months back I decided to continue jumping in moderate winds with high gusts.

Their is a difference between high winds and high gusts.

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Think about downwind landings. People practice downwind landings in preparation for an emergency situation where they might be forces to, but think about what they are really doing. They are practicing for an emergency by creating one. Don't. When the time comes to deal with a situation, deal with it. But don't do something stupid so that you can practice doing something stupid in case you get stuck in a bad situation. That's just...stupid.

A downwind landing is not an emergency. People practice downwind landings in preparation for an emergency situation (landing out, avoiding an obstacle, etc...) where they might be forced to. That's not stupid.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[gavi_omen 0]

Downwind landings are by their very nature inherently more dangerous than going into the wind. In practicing downwind landings you are simply putting yourself into a dangerous situation that was not dangerous before. Nothing changes on downwind landings. Your flare is still the same, you just have more speed. There really isn't much to practice. All you are doing in practicing it is increasing the likelihood that you will hurt yourself on a landing without gaining much real experience.

That qualifies as unnecessary risk in my book.

There's no such thing as free will; everything is dictated by the Uncertainty Principle.

[pilot-one 0]

Ironically it has been unseasonalbly windy in my neck of the winds...I mean woods.

I have not jumped for almost 3 weeks now because of 10-15 MPH wind gusting to over 20 and sometimes 30. It amazes me how many people jump in these conditions, have a partial canopy collapse on final and report back that it's not too bad. Most don't even know what their canopies are doing. I see the low time jumpers that don't know the difference and the higher time jumpers that think they can handle it.
If the wind is steady, 22 or so is my limit. Gusting more than 7 MPH difference and I'm staying on the ground. Period.
I'll wait around a week or two or even a month rather than wait 6 months for my broken ankle to heal or worse.
Although not always indicative of favorable conditions it is smart to watch a load or two before you make your call.

[billvon 2,476]

>Your flare is still the same, you just have more speed.

Which makes the flare completely different in terms of how to translate what you see into where you move your hands.

If you are not comfortable landing in _any_ downwind, you should upsize until you are comfortable. Downwind landings are indeed inherently more dangerous, but if they are so dangerous that a jumper would never consider doing one, something's wrong. They WILL happen, and jumpers must be prepared to perform them.

[pilot-one 0]

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>Your flare is still the same, you just have more speed.

Which makes the flare completely different in terms of how to translate what you see into where you move your hands.

If you are not comfortable landing in _any_ downwind, you should upsize until you are comfortable. Downwind landings are indeed inherently more dangerous, but if they are so dangerous that a jumper would never consider doing one, something's wrong. They WILL happen, and jumpers must be prepared to perform them.

What if you're comfortable on the next size up but not so on the size you're on? How do you get comfortable on something you will never jump with your theory? There's got to be some point when the transition is made where there will be a higher pucker factor.

This isn't my situation whatsoever. I'm just playing devil's advocate.

[gavi_omen 0]

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>Your flare is still the same, you just have more speed.

Which makes the flare completely different in terms of how to translate what you see into where you move your hands.

If you are not comfortable landing in _any_ downwind, you should upsize until you are comfortable. Downwind landings are indeed inherently more dangerous, but if they are so dangerous that a jumper would never consider doing one, something's wrong. They WILL happen, and jumpers must be prepared to perform them.

Yes, I agree it is a situation that you should always be prepared for because it will happen. But what I am saying is that it is not something that I feel should be practiced because the risk in practicing it is high enough and the experience that you take away from it low enough that it just doesn't balance out in my book. I think that it is one of those things that should really only be done when the situation requires it of you.

I would put cutaways into the same boat. It doesn't make a lot of sense practicing a cutaway and reserve ride because the risk is just so high and, although the reward is high, it still doesn't balance out.

What was this thread about again? I don't even remember.

There's no such thing as free will; everything is dictated by the Uncertainty Principle.

[billvon 2,476]

>What if you're comfortable on the next size up but not so on the
>size you're on? How do you get comfortable on something you will never
>jump with your theory?

Excellent question! My answer is:

1) Fly the shit out of the canopy you are on. Be able to flare turn 90 degrees, flat turn 180 degrees, land downwind in 8mph winds, uphills, downhills etc. (Naturally, choose the right time to do these exercises. Landing right after a big way would be a bad time.)

2) When you first downsize, choose the conditions you practice in carefully. Make your first landings into the wind. Then land in no wind. Then land in very light downwinds. If you could land your previous canopy in a 10mph downwind, odds are you can land it the smaller canopy in a 2mph downwind.

The period of time that you have not yet done all those things is a big danger area. That's the time when you can land the canopy OK but cannot yet use its performance to keep you out of trouble. Practice is key to getting through this time safely.

[Baksteen 84]

But I do practice my cutaways.
Every three months I am suspended in a harness from the ceiling and an instructor watches while I cut away and pull the reserve ripcord. After that they give me some horror scenarios and ask me how I'd deal with it. Then they talk it over with me, giving suggestions and corrections.
While nothing like the real deal, thinking about this stuff helps me solve an actual emergency.
In addition to this, which is a requirement in the Dutch BSR, I touch my handles every time before I get onto the plane and just before exit. Occasionally, but especially when i am jumping a new harness/container system (which you regularly do before you got your own gear) I touch my handles in freefall and afterwards under canopy as well.

Similarly, once I have gotten to know my current canopy, practicing a crosswind landing and yet later agian a downwinder with a steady five knots will prepare me for an unexpected downwinder in worse wind conditions.
Not because landing downwind with 5 kts is not different from fifteen knots, because it is - and radically so - but because of the mindset. After all, having tried it under semi-controlled circumstances taught me that I know what to do, namely flare and PLF for all I'm worth.
Too much rconfidence may hurt, but so does too little

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom