What is the etiquette for cutting across somone's base?

[DiverMike 5]

Had my first off field landing yesterday. I was following a skydiver downwind and he didn't turn his base leg until way out. He was a couple hundred feet in front of me and about 100 feet lower. He was 'A' licensed getting currency training and both of us were told to try to land as close to instructor as we could. I am a low number skydiver, but also have a pilots license. As a pilot, I would never cut across someone's base leg, but is it okey to do it? On final, he barely made it over the trees and into the DZ, and I had to do a 90 degree turn at 100 feet to avoid the trees land in a bean field.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[riggerrob 563]

The major issue is avoiding conflicts/collisions.
If you can cut INSIDE some one else's pattern without creating a risk of collision, then no harm, no foul.
The challenge is to cut inside them without flying so close that - an unexpected turn by them creates a risk of collision.
The biggest challenge is that you are approaching from their blind spot - above and behind them.
If you are both flying docile student canopies, then you should be able to fly parallel final approaches with little risk. The key to reducing risk is every one flying predictable patterns, with their eyes open.

OTOH mixing fast and slow canopies - in the same pattern - is a recipe for disaster, done only by the young and "bullet proof."

[pchapman 262]

Quote

As a pilot, I would never cut across someone's base leg, but is it okey to do it?

Just off the cuff, without careful thought as an instructor on how to teach circuits:

As a pilot you tend to let one airplane land at a time... as a skydiver there may be 10 of you all landing in the same general area at the same time. So some degree of proximity is expected.

In general it can be OK to cut inside someones base leg, as long as there is still plenty of separation. It's not like at the airport where if the student in the circuit is pretending he's already flying a B-777 when it comes to circuit size, you can't normally just zip in front of him in the circuit.

You can cut across if you leave enough distance & time, and put yourself in a position where the other guy can see you. That is unfortunately a bit vague sounding but you can get the idea -- don't put yourself in a spot where the other guy might not see you or make a turn and be within a couple seconds of a collision. You don't want to place yourself right infront of someone else (especially slightly lower, right in their flight path). But parallel landing runs side by side is OK.

What might work is to cut inside his base, but then turn final early too, so that his final will be inside his pattern -- Both flight paths therefore never cross. You just have a tight circuit, and the other guy a wide one.

Then overall there are the priority issues to consider. You have to balance that original plan, "land near the instructor", with other priorities that quickly become far more important:
a) don't have a mid air collision,
b) don't land in trees.



You'll find there are a few other differences between skydiving and airplanes. Swooping for example. Even Pitts pilots don't usually do a 270 diving turn at red line, chop the power, skim trees and fences and spectators and then try to land as far down the runway as possible...

[wolfriverjoe 1,371]

Not an instructor, but I am a pilot.

1 - Low man has right of way. Remember, there's no way to do a go-around on these things.

2 - It sounds like he would have had a smaller canopy than you, moving faster (assumption on my part). His going in front of you would then be the better thing to do, going faster, opening space. If he had fallen in line behind you, he might have caught up to you.

3 - From the OP, he was 100ft below and a couple hundred feet in front. Although this is nowhere near adequate seperation for planes, it is fine for canopies. As a student, keeping more space than needed is a very good idea. As you progress, you will find yourself more comfortable in closer proximity.

Your off-landing was probably not absolutely necessary, erring on the side of caution was a good idea.

What did the instructor say about the whole thing?

What did the other jumper say? He may not have even seen you.

You did discuss this with the instructor and the other jumper, right??

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[mdrejhon 8]

(Detailed explanation appropriate for a person with aircraft piloting experience)
Things get a lot more exciting when doing big formation jumps of any kind... The scariest part of most of my bigway jumps is the landing part because of being surrounded by dozens of canopies, people behind you, in front of you, to sides of you, so sometimes the decision to turn early is dictated as whether it's a safer airspace consideration and less 'rude' (turning to final early often gives the person ahead of you, more space to decide when to turn into final, if it's not going to interfere with anybody behind you). Often it means turning left (in left-handed approach) onto my final early to land at the left edge of the field (left edge from my perspective on final) while others are simultaneously landing 50 feet to the right of me. That might actually be safer if airspace is much cleaner over there, than simply trying to merge into more crowded airspace closer to the right edge of the field closer to the hangar, for example... As long as it's side by side landings (with safe horiziontal separation) on the final, it is okay if you land before the person that was formerly ahead of you in your base leg, if you ended up turning onto your final before the person ahead of you. Another way to think about it, as an airplane pilot, is that a large landing area can essentially be several parallel runways, so the etiquette of landing approaches is different from when you have just one runway. Turning early onto your final just lands you on a different parallel runway than the person ahead of you who hasn't turned onto his final yet, so it's not rude etiquette as long as you're not cutting across other people's airspace of the people behind and to the side of you. For pilots, imagine the landing field as a serise of parallel runways, and it begins to make better sense that turning early usually has a concern to the people below, to side, or behind you, or already on ground, rather than the people ahead of you who hasn't turned into final yet. If on base, you see a big clutter of pilots behind you but nobody ahead, sometimes it's polite to turn onto final slightly late to land on a further-rightmost 'runway' in the landing field. (This gives more space for the people behind you to decide on safe turns into finals) Likewise, if on base, you see a bit clutter of pilots ahead of you but nobody behind or to the sides, sometimes it's politer to turn onto final earlier to land on the further-leftmost 'runway' in the landing field. (This gives more space for the people ahead of you). It often gets more dicey when there's people ahead and behind you AND to the sides, so you have to 'go with the flow' and turn safely to be polite to both the person ahead and behind you. Usually, parallel landings like these begin to happen when you're dumping a full Twin Otter load at once (20-ways), and go up from there. It can get dicey if many people aren't following rules. Now, I'm not saying to follow my advice, but to help explain the mechanics of the landing field being like a series of 'parallel runways' - as a concept explained to somebody who has airplane piloting experience. Airports don't operate this way, as they don't have the equivalent of a series of 5 or 10 parallel runways running off one single landing pattern (with multiple different, independent opportunities to turn onto final).

This is a general rule of thumb that occurs when many canopies open very close to each other (i.e. big ways, boogies, etc). Please note, different dropzones can have very different rules for landings.

A GOOD thing for now, though... is to listen to your instructors, but as you gain more experience, you'll figure it out.

And you can (like me under A license, for example), intentionally safely land out in a nice comfy field if you're uncomfortable with the airpsace above the main landing area. I pratically intentionally almost always stayed away from crowded airspace until around about my 200th jump or so, landing in alternate fields instead. I eased into the busy traffic out of necessity when my bigway jumping got even bigger. I highly recommend this approach of staying away, especially on busy dropzone days (i.e. boogies).

[davelepka 4]

Quote

I was following a skydiver downwind and he didn't turn his base leg until way out.

Here's your first lesson - never follow anyone, there's a fair chance they have no idea what they're doing.

Granted, in the pattern, you will be following people in the sense that you're all going the same place, but don't follow them in the sense that you only turn when they turn.

Back to your story, you need to seperate some of your pilot knowledge from your jumping. In a plane, in the same situation, the lead pilot would have added power on the long final, and made the runway, and you would have done the same. It's true, in that case, that if you turned a closer base, you would have cut off the other plane, but these are parachutes, and they work differently.

Under canopy, if a guys flies out too far, he lands out there. There is no way to extend the glide.

Let's say he was 200 ft ahead of you, and at the same altitude. If you felt like he was too far out, and you wanted to turn base ASAP, you could have. Let's say he turned base at the exact same time. Just for fun, let's say you both turned final at the excact same time.

Picture the scene, you're both on final, facing the same way, at the same height, landing along the same line, but he's 200 ft behind you. Where's he going to go? He's going to a spot 200 ft behind your touchdown point. No harm, no foul.

In your case, you followed him, and could have created harm to yourself with a low turn, and an off-field landing.

It is an adjustment to make, but like others have said, there are no go-arounds, no way to add power, and there are several canopies all landing at once - all differences from airplanes.

Another difference is that you have many runways to choose from. On an airport, there's generally one strip of runway that every pilot is using. On the DZ, you can always move laterally to create seperation. You can also land long or short to create seperation. If you really have to, you can even land cross-wind (but that creates some other traffic problems).

Airplane piloting skills will help you flying canopies, but not all rules transfer. Without prior thought, you were correct to err on the side of safety, but spend a little time, and think about the dymanics, and you'll see how the differences apply.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

As an instructor I am always clear with my students that I will not sign off an accuracy requirement if it is achieved by unsafe flying. If you are worried about the conflict you should forget about the accuracy approach; just do it next time.
In the situation you described a little brakes applied would ensure that you would remain above the other guy for the rest of his flight. Therefore you could cut in front of him without interfereing with his line.

[DiverMike 5]

Thanks everyone for helpful advice. I realize unpowered flight in a canopy is different than flying a plane, but I haven't caught on to the landing pattern yet. I imagine it will come.

To answer some questions

I spoke with the instructor briefly and will discuss in further detail. I realize the best source is always the instructor at the DZ. I was high on adreneline and didn't discuss it in detail at the debriefing and probably a little embarassed at missing my landing spot by 100+ meters.


I didn't follow the jumper as much as notice him when I was looking for traffic before I turned base.


The other jumper didn't speak english that well. He approached the group and said 'sorry for landing out' or something similiar. He probably never saw me.

Once I turned final and saw my glide slope I knew I was going to be low above the tree line that separated me from the DZ. I adjusted to the gap with the smallest trees and continued the final. About 50 feet away from the trees I knew I would at least scrape the tops, if not Wile E Coyote straight into the trunk.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[wolfriverjoe 1,371]

Ok, I misunderstood your OP. I thought he cut you off. I now see that you chose to not cut him off, which put you too far out to make it back (please correct me if I still have it wrong).

Again, erring on the side of caution isn't bad, not cutting off other jumpers in the pattern was the polite thing to do. But as has been pointed out, there were ways you could have made it back without causing a traffic conflict.

And yes, I understand the problem of not thinking of these questions until after you have already left the DZ.

The only criticism I have is the "trying to make it over the trees" and waiting until 50' to decide not to. I've landed out because I wasn't absolutely sure I was going to clear the trees. I wasn't willing to put myself into a hole I couldn't get out of and took an out while still above 1000'. Far, far better to miss your spot by (in my case) half a mile than to land in a tree.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[aresye 0]

As a 7-cell pilot, I find myself in this situation a lot with the 9-cells. I sink a lot more on the downwind portion of my pattern, whereas the 9-cells go really far downwind. The general rule I have when making this decision.

I initiate my downwind a little lower than usual, because my pattern is going to be shorter. I then let the person in front of me get adequate separation, in which I'll then turn onto base early, and begin an early final approach.

The biggest things I look out for:

1. Keeping my eye on the other jumper, I ensure I maintain at least 4-5 seconds separation in case they turn right around and head towards me.

2. I avoid cutting across the entire landing area on base. This is just a recipe for disaster, so start your pattern at a lower altitude so you can start an early base and final.

Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours.

[DiverMike 5]

In hindsight, I definitely should have made the decision to turn away from the DZ much earlier. I did a lot of research about skydiving before re-entering the sport after a 30 year break. I realized most accidents and fatalities are due to low turns. I promised myself I wouldn't do any. I broke that promise on my fourth landing.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[pirana 0]

Quote

What might work is to cut inside his base, but then turn final early too, so that his final will be inside his pattern -- Both flight paths therefore never cross. You just have a tight circuit, and the other guy a wide one.

That is my approach if the area ia a little crowded; with a big emphasis on what you said about doing it only if everyone is still left with plenty of room. If it is too crowded (in my judgement and based on a pretty conservative comfort level), then land somewhere else. I also would be careful to give extra room to unexperienced canopy pilots.

I have no problem going somewhere else (we have lots of easy outs) and will readily land out (but not by much) to not make a crowded area worse.

Had to land down the runway just last evening. On downwind leg and ready to turn to base and somebody had just turned to final and was below me. Not enough room to turn inside them without getting too close for my comfort to the trailers. Let them pass below, and now here comes the plane. Didn't want to concern the pilot with my turn to base. Let him pass below. Now it's too late to turn at all (I would've flat turned had it been an obstacle avoidance issue; but not just to save a little walking). Ending up just riding it downwind down the edge of the runway. Fun little surf followed by a few hundred foot stroll.

No problem; and very worth developing a reputation that you will take an easy out rather than put others at risk.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley