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captain1976

Medical Question

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Got whacked on a real hard opening last week. Since this type of force on the body is probably unique to our sport, can anyone tell me what may have been effected on the left side of the body, under the armpit extending to the left breast.

Originally I had a lot of neck, back, chest and ass cheek pain but those have pretty much subsided, however my left side and breast pain have not.

Actually its is more severe now almost a week later.

I really don''t know what organs are there but I suspect something is torn or out of position.

Furthermore, how would you explain what happened to a Doctor? Would they really understand what forces are experienced and where.

Thanks
You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime

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This probably isn't a great place to get medical advice.

It could be as simple as a torn muscle, or it could be much more serious with internal bleeding or weaknesses that could be further aggravated by another jump. Visit a doctor. Simply explain you were skydiving and had a hard opening. Explain you were descending at about 120mph and suddenly decelerated to almost zero while being shifted from a flat belly to earth position to a standing position.

Deceleration injuries are common, and are often associated with a car crash. A reasonable doctor should be able to understand that.
Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

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Probably started with whiplash and moved onto some deep muscle or bone bruising. However, it could be something horribly serious that you should get looked at immediately!

I've personally found relief from the same thing with good massage and a good chiropractor, but YMMV. A traditional GP doc I went to tried to load me up on prescription pain killers and muscle relaxers (which I don't enjoy taking). A sports doc suggested rest and massage with stretching and advil.

Find a good sports doc in your area and try him/her.

This chart might help if you want something different: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_RQjQvxtmK8A/TLYv7qkUodI/AAAAAAAADVg/gbx_qcAB5nE/s1600/Alt+Med+Flowchart.png
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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Most likely pulled/torn muscles but I agree you should get checked out to make sure nothing more serious. As far as hurting more later, soft tissue injuries take 3 to 4 days to peak - often what you feel on day one is tip of the iceberg. Massage and stretching like suggested before are great for soft tissue injuries. Also Aleve or Ibuprofen. Avoid the narcs.

Remember advice here is worth what you pay for it:ph34r:
"We saved your gear. Now you can sell it when you get out of the hospital and upsize!!" "K-Dub"

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as a medic my guess would be fractured ribs or torn cartilage around the rib. if it were muscle, torn or strained it would have a burning sensation. go get checked out quick because rib issues could lead to fluid build up in your lungs from not expanding your lungs due to pain

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as a medic my guess would be fractured ribs or torn cartilage around the rib. if it were muscle, torn or strained it would have a burning sensation. go get checked out quick because rib issues could lead to fluid build up in your lungs from not expanding your lungs due to pain



Seems like you know what your talking about. Thats what I have all right. They say 6 months is the normal healing time and the issue with fluid build up requires hourly breathing exercises that make it pretty painful.

The problem I have now is the recovery time which probably means I'm out of it until at least the end of the year. A real bitch since I'm use to making several jumps a week. :P

Thanks
You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime

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Did it happen on your Spectre? If so, was it lined with Microline or Dacron?



Yes, it was on my 230 Spectre with Microline. Quite surprising that such a soft opening canopy would bite me, but I guess they all will if something ain't right.
You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime

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Any canopy can slam you at any time, especially if you use a packer. Its back to basics, slider pushed to the stops and don't do anything screwy with the pack job (like pushing or pulling the nose in our out) and a Spectre will open great...usually.

That's not really for you Capt, since you know that, more for those reading the thread.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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Did it happen on your Spectre? If so, was it lined with Microline or Dacron?



Yes, it was on my 230 Spectre with Microline. Quite surprising that such a soft opening canopy would bite me, but I guess they all will if something ain't right.



I quess Dacron lines are another line of defense. They could have made a difference in your case (taking the G-forces' spike off). I posted it a while back, but here is what BILL BOOTH has said on dropzone.com about DACRON LINES. Great source of info!:

"My tests show up to a 300% increase in opening shock felt by the jumper using Spectra vs. Dacron suspension lines. It is not always that much different. It depends on how quickly the force is applied...and canopy makers have done a good job of designing canopies that open slowly enough to allow the routine use of Spectra. However, when a rare hard (quick) opening happens, Spectra lines will definitely make it hurt more."

"Anyone who doubts that suspension line stretch is a factor in reducing the opening shock felt by a jumper, should make a bungee jump...only replace the normal stretchy bungee cord with a stainless steel cable. What's going to happen when you hit the end of that steel cable? Your leg is going to be torn off, that's what. Now remember, Spectra line stretches about as much a steel cable."

"If you are not using Dacron lines, they would help. They stretch a little, and also slow the slider down due to surface friction. Spectra (micro) line does not. If you are already using Dacron lines, and still having hard openings, get a canopy that opens slower."

"The best way to avoid injuries from that occasional super hard opening (as well as the hard openings themselves), is not to jump no-stretch lines. Ask yourself, "Do I really need the (slight) advantages no-stretch lines offer?" If not, get Dacron. Your body will thank you, because even if you are not ever seriously injured on any single jump, each even slightly hard opening on no-stretch lines is damaging your body...and it all adds up."

"Spectra (micro line), Vectran, Kevlar, and HMA are "no-stretch" lines. They do not "absorb" opening shock the way Dacron does. This means that the same "hard" opening can hurt you a lot more. It's like doing a bungee jump with steel cable. The same force is applied...but a hell of a lot more shock is felt by the jumper. All the opening shock caused broken harnesses (two PDF tandem harnesses recently broke), injuries (a guy just broke both femurs), and fatalities (4 in the last two years that I know of) have all been on "no-stretch" line canopies, and could probably been prevented if Dacron line had been used. No stretch line is used because it is thinner, lighter, and has less drag than the same strength Dacron. While this is an "advantage" in a high speed swoop, it has no place in tandem. 85 year old grandmothers jump tandem. They, and many other tandem students, need the softest opening shock possible. This is why we only use Dacron line on our tandem products. Not to mention that our tandem equipment was NOT drop tested with no-stretch lined canopies.

I don't care if you have 1,000 jumps on a particular canopy with no-stretch lines with no problems. Ever canopy opens hard eventually. When that happens, I want some "bungee cord" between that canopy and the tandem passenger."

"One thing is for sure, if you jump "no-stretch" lines, especially Spectra (because it's so slippery, and reduces slider drag) your chance of being injured or killed by a hard opening shock is much greater than if you jump Dacron line, which stretches just enough to absorb some of that shock before it hits you."

"Spectra (or micro-line) is strong and tiny, so it reduces both pack volume and drag , which means you get a smaller rig and a faster canopy. Unfortunately, It has a couple of "design characteristics" (this is manufacturer talk for "problems") It is very slippery (less friction to slow the slider), and stretches less than stainless steel. This is why it hurt people and broke so many mini risers when it was first introduced. Now, I must say that the canopy manufacturers did a wonderful job handling these "characteristics" by designing new canopies that opened much slower than their predecessors. However, the fact still remains, that if you do have a rare fast opening on a microlined canopy, Spectra (or Vectran) will transmit that force to you (and your rig) much, much faster, resulting in an opening shock up to 300% higher than if you have Dacron lines. (It's sort of like doing a bungee jump with a stainless steel cable. At the bottom of your fall, your body applies the same force to the steel cable as it would to a rubber bungee cord, but because steel doesn't stretch, your legs tears off.)."

"Reinforced type-17 webbing risers rarely break. They have a new breaking strength of around 3,500 lbs. This is not that much less than type-8 risers breaking strength of 4,000 lbs. The real difference is whether you have mini rings or large rings...and the difference here is in cutaway forces, not breaking strength. While properly designed mini-ring risers can easily release even a 250 lb. jumper in a 3 or 4 "G" spin, the problem is that it is harder to manufacture mini-ring risers correctly. What causes any riser to break is usually a combination of a heavy jumper, a hard opening canopy, and no stretch (Spectra, Vectran, or HTML) line. Broken risers on Dacron lined canopies are very rare indeed."

"Single rear riser break is very rare. Risers usually break where they go around the large harness ring. It is obvious that since the "reinforcement" in type 17 risers is below the confluence, it does nothing to prevent this kind of damage. When this riser broke, it "released" a lot of energy, thus preventing much more serious injury of the jumper. Which is a good thing. The only way I know of to prevent "killer" opening shocks, is not to jump Spectra (Microline) or Vectran. They don't stretch at all, and therefore do nothing to help absorb the energy of a really hard opening. As long as we insist on jumping non-stretch lines, incidents like this are bound to happen. (Canopies with Dacron lines can still open hard, but much less shock is actually felt by the jumper.)."

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tests show up to a 300% increase in opening shock felt by the jumper using Spectra vs. Dacron suspension lines. It is not always that much different. It depends on how quickly the force is applied...and canopy makers have done a good job of designing canopies that open slowly enough to allow the routine use of Spectra. However, when a rare hard (quick) opening happens, Spectra lines will definitely make it hurt more."



I am very great full for your post. I am going to order a set of dacron lines tomorrow and install them while I recover. My body cannot afford another one of those and I will do anything and everything to make sure it doesn't.

Thanks again
You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime

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tests show up to a 300% increase in opening shock felt by the jumper using Spectra vs. Dacron suspension lines. It is not always that much different. It depends on how quickly the force is applied...and canopy makers have done a good job of designing canopies that open slowly enough to allow the routine use of Spectra. However, when a rare hard (quick) opening happens, Spectra lines will definitely make it hurt more."



I am very great full for your post. I am going to order a set of dacron lines tomorrow and install them while I recover. My body cannot afford another one of those and I will do anything and everything to make sure it doesn't.

Thanks again



Your welcome :)not slippery like Microline, creating lots of friction for the descending slider grommets). Result: slider comes way slower on EVERY opening.

I also installed a smaller collapsible F-111 PC, resulting in almost no snatch force felt (again, big difference).

Talking to Norman Kent (who carries up to 32 lbs on his head), he said he also ordered one size larger slider (for his Dacron-lined Stiletto) with brass grommets (for even more friction). In your case, larger slider is not an option, since you are jumping the largest Spectre (and largest Spectre slider, for that matter) there is.

Moreover, be aware of the potential problems between long Dacron lines and Slinks (heat issue, scortching Slinks, confirmed by master rigger Mike Gruwell and PD). Although, this concerned large student and tandem canopies, so your 230 may be "safe".

Dan BC from Arizona Airspeed also relined his Stiletto with Dacron, after his spine infury.

Also, check this from PD:

"Why would anyone want to use Dacron line on their canopy?

Though most people prefer the lower bulk and drag of Microline or Vectran, Dacron is often the best choice for some applications. Dacron is a fairly elastic line, so it gives a little when there is a sharp "spike" to the opening force. This elasticity won't change the really good openings very much, but it can take the edge off those occasional abrupt openings where your packing was a little off or your airspeed was a little high at opening time. Dacron may be preferable in a student operation, where unusual body positions can compound opening issues. Some camera flyers with very heavy helmets also prefer Dacron lines. Older jumpers, who may not want to subject their bodies to hard opening.".

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tests show up to a 300% increase in opening shock felt by the jumper using Spectra vs. Dacron suspension lines. It is not always that much different. It depends on how quickly the force is applied...and canopy makers have done a good job of designing canopies that open slowly enough to allow the routine use of Spectra. However, when a rare hard (quick) opening happens, Spectra lines will definitely make it hurt more."



I am very great full for your post. I am going to order a set of dacron lines tomorrow and install them while I recover. My body cannot afford another one of those and I will do anything and everything to make sure it doesn't.

Thanks again



Make sure there is room in your container for the dacron lines.

If its a pain in the ass to close with spectra, it will be much worse with dacron.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
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I also installed a smaller collapsible F-111 PC, resulting in almost no snatch force felt (again, big difference).



IIRC there is a certian percentage of your canopy size that should determine your PC size.

I went with F111 on my new rig because it seems after talking with several very experienced riggers, the F111s don't 'bounce around' while trying to inflate. I could have sworn there is a video about that somewhere... but I can't seem to find it off the top of my head.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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I also installed a smaller collapsible F-111 PC, resulting in almost no snatch force felt (again, big difference).



IIRC there is a certian percentage of your canopy size that should determine your PC size.

I went with F111 on my new rig because it seems after talking with several very experienced riggers, the F111s don't 'bounce around' while trying to inflate. I could have sworn there is a video about that somewhere... but I can't seem to find it off the top of my head.



Yup, F-111 does not "spill" air. PD told me recently they recommend a 25-27 inch Zero-P, or a 27-28 inch F-111 type PC for most canopies. Also, check the attached document from PD.

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