jf951 1 #1 December 14, 2010 what would be the proper procedure to do in a case like this for both the TI and the camera man ti's would u want the camera man to help untangle you? would you want them to cut the bridal? (could you even cut a bridal with a hook knife? ) camera guys would you try to help or just stay out of it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lP-Wm_-bSI&feature=related im curious because of the vastly different comment responces on youtubeJump more, Bitch less. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #2 December 14, 2010 There was a lengthy thread on this a while back. The Camera guy was trying, but he should have remained clear and allowed the T-I to do what he was taught, two attempts at clearing and then fire the reserve. The T-I should have done a better job of the exit first and foremost. Every fatality in the UPT Incident Reports could have been prevented buy the T-I doing the Proper Procedures. Yes, this was a different rig, but still; Start Right to Fly Right. If I get tangled I would ask the Video Flyer to acknowledge it, then back up and film my opening. If I am at fault it, will exonerate the DZ. If I am not at fault, I can learn from it as well as others. I have told many a Video Flyer if some thing goes wrong stay a safe distance away and let me handle it. I do not want to be responsible for your life too (any more than I am already). MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jf951 1 #3 December 14, 2010 QuoteThere was a lengthy thread on this a while back. The Camera guy was trying, but he should have remained clear and allowed the T-I to do what he was taught, two attempts at clearing and then fire the reserve. The T-I should have done a better job of the exit first and foremost. Every fatality in the UPT Incident Reports could have been prevented buy the T-I doing the Proper Procedures. Yes, this was a different rig, but still; Start Right to Fly Right. If I get tangled I would ask the Video Flyer to acknowledge it, then back up and film my opening. If I am at fault it, will exonerate the DZ. If I am not at fault, I can learn from it as well as others. I have told many a Video Flyer if some thing goes wrong stay a safe distance away and let me handle it. I do not want to be responsible for your life too (any more than I am already). Matt awesome. thanks for the response dude. nice to have a little input from the other sideJump more, Bitch less. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #4 December 14, 2010 I think this was the original discussion about that video. It's an An-28 I think, and not a Skyvan, but I think it's the same one.Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GLIDEANGLE 1 #5 December 14, 2010 Quote cut the bridal What the heck does divorce have to do with this video?The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #6 December 14, 2010 Matt pretty much answered. That being said. If I were the video guy, it would be VERY hard for me not to try. I *know* the chances of me being able to do anything is practically nil, but that is human nature. Would I try? Yeah, I'd want to try to help. SHOULD I try? No. There are just too many issues with helping. *With 300+ pounds already being applied to the bridle, there is almost no chance I would be able to do anything. *Me mucking around would just delay the reserve pull. *The TI might just dump the reserve while I was mucking around and kill all of us. This could be a very good lesson in how trying to do the right thing could very well kill everyone. The camera guy could be messing around when the AAD fires. Quotecould you even cut a bridal with a hook knife? I strongly doubt it, and not with a hook knife that most jumpers carry."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Para5-0 0 #7 December 14, 2010 Along similar lines I knew an AFF Instructor who lost a very light student. The camera guy with wings, flew in to assist the student. So fast forward and this turns into a bit of a dispute or pissing match. AFFI-"do not touch my student you are not qualified" Video-"Dont put me in the situation to make the decision and we will both be fine." Both parties were very experienced but the video guy was not AFF rated. Led to some serious beer discussions. I think it is hard to make this black and white. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
djmarvin 2 #8 December 14, 2010 QuoteThere was a lengthy thread on this a while back. The Camera guy was trying, but he should have remained clear and allowed the T-I to do what he was taught, two attempts at clearing and then fire the reserve. The T-I should have done a better job of the exit first and foremost. Every fatality in the UPT Incident Reports could have been prevented buy the T-I doing the Proper Procedures. Yes, this was a different rig, but still; Start Right to Fly Right. If I get tangled I would ask the Video Flyer to acknowledge it, then back up and film my opening. If I am at fault it, will exonerate the DZ. If I am not at fault, I can learn from it as well as others. I have told many a Video Flyer if some thing goes wrong stay a safe distance away and let me handle it. I do not want to be responsible for your life too (any more than I am already). Matt Ditto Some one in the original thread mentioned why not let it go further, the drogue is out so terminal is not an issue. Consider the force generated by the drogue and stress it put on the tandem student and/or instructor's legs. If I were this T-I I would have wanted to get the drogue out long before the camera guy gave him room to. Hopefully those folks learned from their mistakes and so should we. DJ Marvin AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E http://www.theratingscenter.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #9 December 14, 2010 QuoteAFFI-"do not touch my student you are not qualified" If the AFFI could not get to the student....Seems that AFFI was not qualified either. Good on the vidiot for stepping up in that case. But it is a bit different situation. There is little the video guy could do in the tandem situation BUT make it worse."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #10 December 14, 2010 >>Along similar lines I knew an AFF Instructor who lost a very light student. The camera guy with wings, flew in to assist the student.If this was a traditional single AFF Instructor dive the student should have be fine alone in freefall as this is a post release dive. If it's one of those funky tandem to freefall programs it could have been single JM right off the bat. And in that case the student is trained to pull and stop the skydive after losing the JM. The point being is take care of the emergencies on the ground so you don't have take care of them in the air. On the other hand, and not being privy to the video, if the student was alone and totally freaking out, and don't take this the wrong way, that's what a student AAD is for. In the early days of AFF, before we had ultra reliable AADs, many AFF JMs and Instructors would wind up chasing students below the hard deck. And I recall at least two that lost their lives doing that. But in those days the mentality was very different. You took the ten bucks and that meant, if it comes down to it, giving up your life for your student. But the current wisdom in AFF courses nowadays is, or should be, if the student blows through their pull altitude, with no attempt to pull, and you can't get to them, then at least try to get into their sight line and pull yourself. The reasoning is you've already blown it. You blew it by not staying with them (which is usually a case of dressing for success,) you blew it by not training them hard enough to handle what ever the problem was in the first place, and you blew it by not drumming altitude awareness into their heads. So who needs you! Like in baseball it's time to bring in the closer from Germany. And after you land, give back the ten bucks . . . LOL! NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites