Pull sltitudes for recent student grads

[Pendejo 0]

I'm aware of what the S.I.M. says... In another forum there was a post regarding a jumper being upset when someone who has recently graduated student status (yes I am cleaning up what was said a little) wants to break a 4-way at 5000ft. I'm curious if this is what most students face when they graduate or is this just a single case.

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!

[jumpjunkie2004 0]

On my first RW jump (three way), I told them that I wanted to turn and track at 5,000. We agreed to stop maneuvers at 6,000. They were ok with it.

On my third RW jump - it was just a two way - I said I wanted to do the same thing. The other skydiver said she set her audible for 5,000. We'd keep doing maneuvers until 5,000 and then turn and track.

At my dz, the more experienced skydivers seem pretty understanding. They consider jumping with Newbies a "fun jump" and don't expect too much from us.

Jump, Land, Pack, Repeat...

[peregrinerose 0]

I'm still new, and want to pull at 3500 or higher, so prefer to break off at 5000 (bigger than 3 way) or 4500 for 2-3 way. The folks I jump with are always more experienced than I am, and the breakoff has always been set to what the least experienced jumper is comfortable with. It has never been a problem, they've never made me feel badly for wanting to break off higher than they normally would.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Brian425 0]

The people I jump with are really good about break off altitude. It's reall simple, in anyone is unhappy with the break off altitude, speak up and we work on an agreed on number. We do try to keep them realistic, no break off at 7,000 and pull at 5,000. Usually break off at 4.5k or 5k and pull by 3.5k.

If you are uncomfortable and feel you are being forced to pull low, don't jump with them. Wait until you are comfortable with their numbers. Don't break your own safety rules to make others happy.

Be Safe and have fun.

B

The only time you should look down on someone is when you are offering them your hand.

[Andy9o8 0]

In the Incidents thread (WFFC fatality) that started this discussion, there seems to be a sort of clash of generational cultures – those that started in the 70's & 80's on S/L at 2500, hop & pops at 3500, etc., versus those trained more recently on AFF &/or tandem progression AFP where you get out between 10K & 14K and pulled anywhere between 4K & 6K. I learned doing S/L progression starting at 2500, so I, too, find it a little amusing when AFF trainees fear doing hop & pops from 3500, completely unmindful of the fact that they’re deploying at a slow, sub-terminal velocity that gives them plenty of time for EPs at that altitude. When I was a student, it was the higher altitudes that made my eyes grow wide, not the lower ones. Then again, I have friends who laugh at ME when I shudder when they tell of doing military S/L jumps from “maybe” 1,200 feet, because, holy shit, that’s so low...to me. (You know, in WWII S/L jumps into combat were often made from about 500 feet.) So, you see, everything is relative.

Anyhow, back in the earlier days, most Cessna DZ’s used 7500 as max altitude for 30 second delays, so every second of freefall was precious, especially on RW loads. Made dumping above 3K feel like you were shortchanging your jump; and dumping around 2K was pretty common. That’s a little different from getting out at 13,000 all the time, where dumping an extra 1500 feet higher doesn’t make you feel like you’ve diminished your jump.

So the newer generation of jumpers needs to understand that when an older jumper dumps around 2500, he’s not being unreasonably risky, he’s just doing what has been common and accepted as safe for him and his generation of jumpers for the past 25-30 years. By the same token, the older generation needs to understand that if a newer-generation jumper wants to break off at 5 and dump at 4 (and you can’t deny that leaves more time for EPs), it doesn’t mean he’s being a pussy who doesn’t have enough guts to be a “real” skydiver and should take up golf, he’s just doing what comes natural to his generation of jumpers.

<> Can’t we all just <> get along?

[Pendejo 0]

I agree with you about the static line thing..... Thats how I learned and it was common for a lot of us to pull at 2000ft. We were jumping from 182's at 8500ft. What I took exception to was the poster condemning someone for wanting to pull higher. I have on more than 1 occasion witnessed a person taking 1000 to 1500 feet to recognize, cut away, and get a good reserve above their head. At the DZ where I jump we mostly break off at 4500ft. It seems silly to me to spend the last 3 or 4 seconds watching a low timer being scared so we can get that extra point on the skydive....

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!

[riggerrob 561]

Good points!
Equipment has also changed over the years.

Twenty years ago, a Raven main canopy that opened in 3 or 5 seconds was the norm, so tossing your pilot chute at 2,000' was acceptable.
Now that modern ellipticals require 800' to open, pulling at 3,000' makes more sense.

[riggerrob 561]

4,000' is the normal break off altitude at many larger DZs.
The last 11 way at Pitt Meadows (the outer ring) started tracing off a 5,000' with the center waiting until 4,000' before we started tracking.

[teason 0]

At SL and IAD DZs it's pretty common to do a hop and pop after the students. (I have about 300-400 jumps from 3000-4500'!) Still, I have noticed jumpers and new instructors who return to the low altitudes do get a bit of nervousness when blasting out the door at 3000.

Silly, you can almost get terminal!

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[teason 0]

Another good point! Why is it we have no problem pulling at 3000' at terminal, with 15 sec. to impact but a 3000' hop 'n' pop that's 23 sec to impact is so intimidating

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Another good point! Why is it we have no problem pulling at 3000' at terminal, with 15 sec. to impact but a 3000' hop 'n' pop that's 23 sec to impact is so intimidating

For a student jumper, a stable exit isn't a given. For AFF that is. The S/L guys had to learn a good exit right away.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I'm aware of what the S.I.M. says... In another forum there was a post regarding a jumper being upset when someone who has recently graduated student status (yes I am cleaning up what was said a little) wants to break a 4-way at 5000ft. I'm curious if this is what most students face when they graduate or is this just a single case.

I don't think there are too many people getting upset, but there are a lot of diveflows where a breakoff of 4500 is suggested and used if the lowtimer doesn't speak up. Also a lot of plans that only give that person 1000ft to turn and burn, be it 5 to 4, or 4.5 to 3.5.

[teason 0]

I was talking about people with 100+ jumps! It's amazing how a low altitude can freak out an experienced jumper. They can take a 4-way nice and stable from the crotch but diving out at 3000' makes them kick

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[Pendejo 0]

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I don't think there are too many people getting upset

The good news is that you are right.... It would have been very sad if most of the responses had gone the other way.

Its hard for me to understand how someone would feel otherwise. Given that my canopy (and many others) take 800ft to open on a regular basis, if I were to still pull at 2000ft or even 2500ft, I would be starting out in the basement from the beginning.... Now add in that fact that it might be one of the newer jumpers that is under a crossfire (that still takes around 800ft to open) with a little slower reaction time to the malfunction, and what you have is a recipe for disaster.


The point of my post was to remind some of us "old timers" (not... 7 to 10 years does NOT make anyone an old timer IMO in this sport) that many of those with less jumps come from a different train of thought..... If I were still jumping my saber 1 and were still getting out at 8500 from a cessna I would still be pulling at 2000ft, but even then I would not give anyone a hard time for wanting to break a little higher than normal... But jumping my Katana and getting out at 13,500ft I don't see the need to pull at 2000ft anymore... Call me crazy, but I like having the extra time to deal with any problems that might arise.

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!

[Reginald 0]

Interesting. At my DZ we start students pulling at 5k. Throughout their AFF and coaching progression we bring them down to 3 or 3.5K. So when they get their “A” license they should be comfortable pulling at 3.5K with no problem. Most people at the DZ pull right at 3K except for a few free flyers who seem to think 4K is better. RW people (new and old) tend to be more comfortable pulling lower than FF’ers. Pulling at 3K tends to be a good general number as with normal 800 foot snivels it give just a short amount of time to work out a problem before a common 1,800 foot hard deck. A few people pull around 2.5K but not many. Honestly, I don’t see throngs of people freaking out about pulling below 4K.

Typical break off is 4k to 4.5k for experienced 4 to 8 way RW jumps. It’s 4.5K for most low time 4 ways. It’s 5K for big ways (36ish people). Still plenty of time to pull by 3K.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[billvon 2,435]

>Now add in that fact that it might be one of the newer jumpers that is
> under a crossfire (that still takes around 800ft to open) with a little
> slower reaction time to the malfunction, and what you have is a
> recipe for disaster.

Take away the slow opening, and you still have a newer jumper under a crossfire - and that's still a recipie for disaster. There is no way anyone who is not experienced enough to react instantly to a mal should be jumping anything like a crossfire.

[airdvr 200]

Personally, one of the changes in the sport I liked is the higher pull altitudes. Old school here and spent most of my time dumping at 2 grand. On the upside, I think most old schooler's won't stay with a canopy very long when its not behaving properly. When you're used to being in the saddle at 2 or less your response time to a mal is much faster...my $.02

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[kelpdiver 2]

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I was talking about people with 100+ jumps! It's amazing how a low altitude can freak out an experienced jumper. They can take a 4-way nice and stable from the crotch but diving out at 3000' makes them kick

Oh, I can see that.

I think that comes down to the infrequency of doing clear and pulls at any height. People nail their exits most of the time, but still you have some funnel percentage on exit, no?

How many DZs discount the 3-5k HnPs? I believe Elsinore is $12 instead of 21, and Lodi has the $5 special, but I think I may have paid full price on the two I did for my A, and definitely for the 2 I did at 7k for Germain's class. It may be one of those silly mental blocks in our minds (like worrying about 10c/gallon for gas, but not 40k for the car) - why pay the same price for 1/4th the altitude?

I guess it would be worth doing a day dedicated to it out at Lodi. 3500, climbing, no cut- if that doesn't get one comfortable, nothing will.

[Pendejo 0]

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Take away the slow opening, and you still have a newer jumper under a crossfire - and that's still a recipie for disaster.

OK..... Lets substitute the word Spectre for Crossfire.

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There is no way anyone who is not experienced enough to react instantly to a mal should be jumping anything like a crossfire.

I guess that would depend on your definition of "instant." I have yet to see a person just off student status (and yes I realize that only having 7 years in the sport pales to a lot of jumpers) cut away anywhere near what I would call instant. I only have 3 reserve rides. Two of those rides were with a camera on my head. Its interesting that what I thought was instant when I cut away turned out to be around 2 seconds from opening to cut away. I guess that when I have 4000 skydives and 20 years in the sport I will be able to recognize a malfunction and cut away in the blink of an eye.... But at 7 years and only 1800 skydives it takes me around 2 seconds.


So do you think that people who are just off student status should be breaking off at 3500ft or are you just picking apart the example I used?

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!

[tbrown 26]

Hey everybody, I'm the asshole who made the original post in the Incidents column.

The main reason I made the comment was in response to another post suggesting that the victim of the fatality in question was somehow "doomed" before he ever even got out the door. I took that remark as a case of extreme altitude paranoia and responded accordingly.

Personally, even in the old days I usually pulled somewhere between 2500 - 3000 ft and was usually under an open canopy by 2500 ft. In those days I once chopped a streamer malfunction and was still under my reserve just above 1500 ft, so I figured I was leaving myself enough room (no RSL's or AADs back then either).

Nowadays I usually pull at about 3 grand and I'm open down around 2300 most every time. I'm all in favor of breaking off at 4500 ft, or even 5 grand on something bigger.

But seriously, I DO think that newer jumpers need to gradually work their way down and get comfortable with pulling below 4 grand. For one thing, if you're open above 3 grand you're a hazard to freefalling bodies and if one of them hits you, you'll be just as dead as them. And that's one UGLY fatality, especially since it's often a double fatality. I don't see any reason why a safe novice jumper can't learn to acclimate themselves to breaking off at 4500 ft or gradually working their pull altitude down to 3500 and eventually 3 grand. And those are the altitudes we need to feel comfy with. THEN theres's the sometimes necessary pull below 3 grand. I don't like having to go below 2500 and 2 grand frankly scares me, but I know I can do it if I have to. It's not a matter of feeling comfy, it's having the confidence to do it when you have to. Because sometimes we have to do things we don't like.

So when I said "go play in the wind tunnel", I was being dismissive of someone saying a jumper was "doomed" by a very reasonable safety rule at a high volume event.

And by the way, I love jumping with newbies, even when they want to breakoff high. I usually make a face and will sometimes ask "not comfy with 4500 ?" and then agree to their asking for 5000. Because in real life I'm not such an asshole, only when I go online.....

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[kelpdiver 2]

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And by the way, I love jumping with newbies, even when they want to breakoff high. I usually make a face and will sometimes ask "not comfy with 4500 ?" and then agree to their asking for 5000. Because in real life I'm not such an asshole, only when I go online.....

That's a bit assholish.

[mdrejhon 8]

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Nowadays I usually pull at about 3 grand and I'm open down around 2300 most every time. I'm all in favor of breaking off at 4500 ft, or even 5 grand on something bigger.

The altitude of 3K is also my usual pull altitude and I'm okay with that (4.5K breakoff). However, I tend to like to ask for a 5K pull half of the time because I love the canopy ride.

Some say I should be going down to 2500 feet, but I haven't pulled at that altitude before. I think I will standardize on 3000 feet and stay there, but I'll go to 2500 feet if necessary (low altitude hop-n-pop or my first "bigway") or lower in order to bail out a doomed airplane. Does that make me a wimp?

[NWFlyer 2]

Static line baby here, who jumps in the NW, so pulling at 3 is no big deal for me. Another reason newbies may ask for a higher breakoff altitude is that they're not yet comfortable with their tracking capabilities and feel they need a little more time to get to the point where they're going to pull at 3 or 3.5K.

Oh, and Kelp, I've met Tom and jumped with him a bunch of times. He's about as far from an asshole as they come and really does like jumping with the newbies. Occasionally we show him a thing or two.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[kelpdiver 2]

I didn't say he was an asshole, just that making a face and reluctantly going along with their preferred safety practices isn't cool. It only discourages them from voicing such concerns in the future.

[tbrown 26]

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I didn't say he was an asshole, just that making a face and reluctantly going along with their preferred safety practices isn't cool. It only discourages them from voicing such concerns in the future.

You know what ? You're whining. That's something else we learned in the old days - don't whine. If I said I'm an asshole, it's because a.) I have a warped sense of humor, or b.) maybe sometimes I am.

Anyway, if I admit to "making a face", I'm just being honest on a fucking forum, so pardon me all to hell.

So to all the brain police out there, I don't think anybody out there under normal circumstances needs to pull below 3 grand.

And if f you want to whine, go play in a whine cellar ! And don't forget your cheese & crackers...

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !