New brake lengths on my Sabre 170 - throwing off my landings.

[mdrejhon 8]

I will definitely have instructors and all take precedence, but I do admit to having had a really frustrating weekend landings-wise after having my old brakes replaced on my rig by a rigger (rig was purchased used back at jump 59). Brakes are now PD factory settings.

I think (incorrectly or not) that for many people this is minor since all but one of them under the new brakes, were standup and have not gotten hurt, but, for me, it was really frustrating because of my erratic flares and also lost my ability to turf-surf. (A few things made up for it, including some really nice and friendly chats with the great people at the dropzone, as well as my "A" license being in the mail!)

Prior to today, I was getting much better at dynamic flares (some people call this two stage), to planeout, fly over the ground and then touchdown softly. I also nailed zero wind landings too as well and slid only once. Sitting in Scott Miller's canopy course was helpful too! Really great pillow soft standup landings! 40-50 feet turf surfs from just simple straight-in approaches. There were some less-than-perfect landings (i.e. slight early flares, etc), but still stood up pillow soft (no feet thump at all), except for the three times I had to slide it in under my new rig (mainly zero winders I was still tuning into). Landed really pillow soft from third brakes when I had to fly through ground-level turbulence. I did a successful slight 45 degree crosswind landing with a slight flare turn to compensate. There was that occasional slide landing on the nice soft dropzone grass, but I felt I was progressing well and safely.

My brake lines had to be replaced because my brakes lines were old. Brakes are now Performance Designs factory specs, but this really threw me off pretty badly. This weekend most of my landings were a little squirrelly, all of them standup or near-standup (a couple of feet slides), but I wasn't flaring smoothly anymore.

Looking at it, I guess it was kind of bad timing -- new brake lines (was necessary) only 20 jumps into my new canopy, and I have to relearn landings "all over again", I feel like I was flying 40 jumps ago. (New brake settings is a bigger challenge, because all the Sabres, rentals and otherwise, I've flown since jump 25, have all had shorter brakes than this, so this is probably the first time I am flying brakes at factory lengths).

I have been, and will continue to be doing lots of pratice flares, flat turns, braked turns, up high, many 5K pulls, but I am still only slowly tuning into the new brake settings.

And I had my first tarmac landing which I almost fell over on. I was upset at myself about that - it was stronger wind at 500 feet, lighter wind at ground, that threw me off and accelerated my forward motion at low altitude - it was either taxiway adjacent to landing field, or a low turn, so I chose tarmac when I noticed no planes were anywhere in the airport or vincinty.) I know, shame on me. I was visibly upset at myself for doing that (I'm a bit hard on myself at times), but somebody nice at the dropzone said that people make mistakes and it is a lesson learned.

I am pleased at how forgiving my Sabre 170 is -- I have not gotten hurt and manage to keep landing standing up, I just am no longer doing a smooth planeout, I'm either sometimes thumping my feet, or sliding my feet, or a little high. (I need to thank the dropzone people for patience with my frustrations.) It does humble me to stay on the 170 and never downsize for hundreds of jumps. Newbies like me need to be aware of the subtle fastballs like replacement brake lines. I'll just have to get used to PD factory setting. The flare range is totally different and not what I expected. Not getting myself hurt so far, but risk has gone up, so I am conscious about this.

There are the good and great weekends. There are the frustrating weekends. This was, on average, one of them. (But I thank the patience of so many people at the dropzone!)

Besides having to vent a bit, I am researching about how one gets used to new brakes (Beyond the existing pratice flares I'm doing on most jumps at 5K pull, except during my occasional RW jumps). Remember, I'm a relative newbie so take it easy on me. I know I won't be taking forum advice to heart -- but I'm going to do some research from all sources and cross-reference with my dropzone friends/instructors. (Note: I do have Brian Germain's "Parachute and its Pilot". I'll be studying it again before my next visit to improve the smoothness of my flares.)

[nate_1979 9]

If it really bothers you, you could have your brake lines shortened... I do believe that they can lengthen them again later on "assuming you have lines that shrink" ....

I had to have the brakes on my new canopy shortened because I also could not get a good flare out of it, ... A thing to check would be to see how far you can pull down on the lines before you see deflection on the back of the canopy, tell your rigger how much play they have and he should be able to tell you if they are too long or right.. I was able to pull the toggles past my sholders before deflection of the canopy, clearly too long

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[hookitt 0]

Wow ... I read that whole post. SOOooo ... in short.. the brake lines are longer and you aren't used to it yet.

And the question is: How do you get used to longer brake lines?

Make several more skydives and don't think so hard. Once someone has the book smarts, it's time to let the physical part of your intelligence kick in.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[mdrejhon 8]

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I had to have the brakes on my new canopy shortened because I also could not get a good flare out of it

I am told they will do it if I insist -- but, I really want to follow PD factory specs. I'm just trying to research. I know I do not want to piss people off by giving excuses I found off a forum but I'm researching from multiple sources THEN filtering through dropzone people I trust.

I am inclined to believe that PD knows WAY more than I do, but, I do admit that I felt MUCH safer under my old brakes. I think I was too used to short brake settings since jump 25 where I first started jumping Sabres. So it just frustrates me. They were old brake lines that have shrunk.

I've talked to some really nice people at the dropzone and the usual advice applies -- pratice makes perfect. I just feel like I'm back at jump number 25 landing experience levels - that's how I feel!

Oh ya, and I probably am a bit too hard on myself (People keep telling me that!).

[hookitt 0]

Don't shorten them just yet. Fly the canopy and make sure there's play in the lines. You should have to pull the toggles down several inches before the tail deflects.

If it's too many inches, it can be shortened. Here's how I set up spetra brakelines.

Go at least 2 inches longer than factory.
Create a one inch loop for the toggle, finger trap it and stitch in place. Don't make any knots.

If it's too long at first, simply figure 8 the loop through the grommet and around the sides a couple times, the pull the tail of the toggle through the loop.

As the brake line shrinks, just undo one of the figure 8's.

Hopefully that makes sense in text.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[mdrejhon 8]

Now I'm curious about tail deflection, thanks for that idea! (at least so I know what PD factory brakes look like and so I can occasionally observing it as my brakes age). Will have to watch it during one of my pratice flares. At least as a reference point. Anyway, it probably won't mean anything at this stage as I'm likely to keep the brakes the way they are.

I've only jumped these new brakes 9 times. I just don't want to jump 50 times just to get used to these new brakes to the same experience level as old brakes, but I will just have to be patient. It's a fastball I have to keep in mind in the wonderful sport of skydiving.

What makes this even more frustrating:
I haven't landed the last 9 times as well as my first-ever Sabre 170 landing after the 190->170 downsize!! According to my feet, anyway. (I could be wrong from an external perspective, mind you)

It wasn't all bad, I had a few fun freefalls in spetacular partial-cloud sky including a very memorable sunset jump, and I enjoyed a closed accordian 2-way jump with somebody I enjoy jumping with, and oh yes -- finally having the A in the mail. I'll remind myself of the positives.

[nate_1979 9]

Tail deflection... Basicly in full flight your brake lines are bowed behind you, ... There is slack, so that when you pull your front risers you dont pull the tail of the canopy at all.... I pulled the brakes slowly while watching the tail of the canopy to see when the breakes started pulling the back of the canopy... For me it was just way to far, well past where I would ever need for front risers

My brakes were long enough that my turns just sucked, canopy wasnt as responsive as I had seen in demos... And the flare just sucked...

Ofcourse, that was me and my canopy, nothing says the case is the same for you
I asked for the opinions of some of the "canopy coaches" and a rigger at my DZ.. Best thing I did

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[mdrejhon 8]

Good to know about the tail deflection trick. It's something I would do to observe then communicate to my rigger. I suspect it is probably okay the way it is and simply me being used to short brakes for approx 45-to-55-ish jumps. But it's a valuable reference point since something might actually be unusual.

Another (unrelated?/related?) observation is that my brake lines are somewhat loose when I pack. My stows are slightly messier than they used to be because the brake lines are longer than the regular lines when I pack.

Then again, my openings have been much better (soft, on-heading). Then again, I may just be better at packing. But very interesting theory -- brake line length affecting openings? Do they?

Brakes are probably not too long because I feel the flare earlier as I pull down, and sometimes I pop upwards before I'm even at half brakes. But I will doublecheck with the tail deflection observation and let the rigger know, so that I know it's good (looking at tail deflection, at least, would be a confidence building measure that brakes are good and that it's simply pratice I need to do). It's probably just a more confusing flare range since I'm not used to it.

Some people think I may be making a big deal about it and just need pratice. And I will. Just need to build confidence.

[billvon 2,406]

>Then again, I may just be better at packing. But very interesting
>theory -- brake line length affecting openings? Do they?

Yes. Brake length _above_ the stow position affects openings. Generally longer is softer. Length below the stow position does not. As others have mentioned, you should be able to pull your brakes at least 2 inches before you deflect the tail at all - if you can't, they're too short. If you are going to be practicing front riser manuevers, the brakes should be long enough that you can pull on a front riser without distorting the tail at all.

If the lines are way too long (i.e. 6" of slack or something) you can shorten them _below_ the stow position without affecting opening.

[Hooknswoop 19]

A couple of things;

1) Setting the brake lines to the factory settings after the line set has a bunch of jumps on it is the wrong setting. The lines have shrunk. If you set the steering lines to the original settings, they are too long because all the other lines are shorter.

2) You are flaring from muscle memory, not flying the canopy. It makes no difference where your hands are when you flare, just fly the canopy. If the lower brake lines are an inch longer or shorter than the lat jump, your hands will be an inch higher or lower to compensate, but you shouldn't have to think about it. Just pull the toggles as necessary to flare the canopy.

3) The lower steering lines don't shrink, well very little.

4) The longer upper steering lines are affecting the openings. If you like how it opens now, leave them and maybe shorten the lower steering lines, as long as thge tail is deflected in full flight. A quick test is to pull down one toggle about 2 inches, the canopy should not turn. If it does, the lower steering lines are too short.

Your best bet is to replace the upper steering lines back to the length they shrunk to, maybe a hair longer (because the steering lines shrink faster than any of the other lines), and your lower steering lines so that the tail is not deflected when in full flight. You need even longer lower steering lines if you use your front risers.

Derek

[EvilLurker 2]

What it sounds like to me (and not having seen your main, it's speculation only), you were flying in partial brakes up to this point, and now you've got full drive and a faster and flatter-flying canopy. It's going to take some modification of your technique and practice to land it.

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Brakes are probably not too long because I feel the flare earlier as I pull down, and sometimes I pop upwards before I'm even at half brakes.

That makes it sound like the brakes are not too long, so you're stuck learning to fly what you've got. It sounds like you're too agressive on the initial flare (you probably learned that by having to take the excess slack out of the stretched set of lines). Popping up is eating a lot of the energy you should be saving to bleed off sink rate/forward speed later in your flare.
Just my 2 cents worth, I'm not any kind of "landing guru".

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my brake lines are somewhat loose when I pack. My stows are slightly messier than they used to be because the brake lines are longer than the regular lines when I pack.

You've got me on that one. Are you Pro packing? Any "slack" should be inside the pack job and all the lines the same length after they leave the slider grommet. Have someone watch you pack and explain that one to you, I've never seen such a thing. ???

[tso-d_chris 0]

One of the more difficult things to learn about landings is to flare according to how much lift you are feeling through the harness, and the view of the horizon, instead of where your arms are relative to the stage of your flare. Your arm position is going to change according to conditions, altitude, temperature, brakeline length, etc. The look and feel of a successful flare should ideally only change in time duration.

In other words, a Spectre and a Velocity should feel much the same during a flare (speed and length of landing "runway" notwithstanding), but the time duration of the landing under a Velocity will likely be greater.

I tend to avoid terms like "two-stage flare" because a flare should be a smooth motion, and not staged. There is no point at which you should stop flaring and wait for the next "stage." Your arms should not necessarily move at a constant rate, but the idea is a smooth transition to a (softly) landable velocity.

For Great Deals on Gear

[mdrejhon 8]

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2) You are flaring from muscle memory, not flying the canopy. It makes no difference where your hands are when you flare, just fly the canopy. If the lower brake lines are an inch longer or shorter than the lat jump, your hands will be an inch higher or lower to compensate, but you shouldn't have to think about it. Just pull the toggles as necessary to flare the canopy.

That's a good point. I may have been using more muscle memory ("Autopilot") in previous flares. At least I have an excuse for me to to tell myself Really boils down to "fly the canopy till you've fully landed" advice I've been given at the dropzone - this is another way to interpret it.

I'll "dial it in"... Next two weekends is better almost guaranteed - I'm hoping to be doing my 100th!

[Fuzzy 0]

Mark

The Senior Rigger who changed your lines is a "Very Good" "Very Contientious" rigger as any rigger should be. The work was done right. There is nothing wrong with the canopy or lines.

It is not always the equipments fault.

I videoed one of your landings this weekend (a video you saw) and watched some others. As stated in my email to you, the canopy did just what "you" told it to do and when you told it to - in short - it did it's job.

Get someone to video some more of your landings. Video debrief is not just for freefall. It can do wonders to help improve with landing technique as well. A video will see something people on-line will not see.

Fuzzy
Ambition / Ability: Know the difference.

[mdrejhon 8]

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Get someone to video some more of your landings. Video debrief is not just for freefall. It can do wonders to help improve with landing technique as well. A video will see something people on-line will not see.

Best advice. I've been often reluctant to ask for video.

I'm pretty sure I am simply not used to this flying behaviour (doing its job, just need to familiarize)

[Andy9o8 0]

Get some videos of your landings and post them on here. Then we can really flame your ass.

[mdrejhon 8]

Nah. That's the instructor's job to critique me.