landing accuracy technique for the novice? (a few questions)

[mixedup 0]

Still having a few problems trying to land in the 25m circle consistently...just wanted to clarify my understanding of what techniques one can use here (i.e. clarifying what I've learnt from my instructors, but also I think it's good/interesting to listen to other experienced people on the forum here, inbetween times I can make it out to the DZ).

So my high level understanding re landing accurancy techniques is:

Prior to turning final (coarse grain)
- all about preparing your circuit to match the winds, looking at the windsock, flying into wind at 2000 and judging ground speed etc
- aim is to get yourself turning into final at roughly the right height/location...

On Final (fine tuning)
- this is where I really wanted to clarify, maybe I should note I've been flying circuit at full drive too
- the main two techniques to fine tune I know are

a) sashaying
- only on basis no other canopies around (and I'm landing in the student landing area)
- seems to give me a medium grain level of adjustment...haven't been confident enough to do large enough sashays on some jumps as I have the "no big turns down low" drilled into me, and have overshot on these occassions

b) toggles
- applying some toggles to steepen approach, if looks like you'll overshoot, but make sure you go back to full drive for the last 1/2 of final (well before flaring)
- kind of feels like this should give more of a fine grain adjustment, but admit I haven't tried/practiced this technique too much to date


So overall I guess feedback I'm be interested in:

Q1) have I got this correct above, re for flying Final leg these are the two accuracy adjustment techniques available?

Q2) would it be ok to focus on use of "toggles" as the main technique on final? i.e. then this is available to you in the case there are other canopies around, and I'm guessing once practiced well it should give one the ability to really fine tune the landing into the circle?

Q3) should I perhaps be starting to fly first part of final say in 1/4 brakes, so I have room to go either way depending on whether it looks like I'm overshooting or undershooting?



thanks

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[theonlyski 3]

The things I do, I wouldn't recommend to someone with little experience. I have my reasons for it, mainly because one of them has hurt me because I did it wrong at around 50 jumps.

The most important part is BEING CONSISTENT. Set your pattern up before you go up, take into account the winds. Think you'll need to start your pattern at such and such place (use ground references and altitudes), turn base and final the same way. If you overshoot by 30', back your pattern up 30'. If you undershoot 50', push your pattern up 50'.

If you're consistent with it, you will start 'seeing' where you need to be and when.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[almeister112 0]

If you want to be successful and safe jumping at a big dropzone, I would entirely eliminate S-turns (sashaying) on final. You'll get a talking to from our safety guy and scare the crap out of everyone else on the load if you're bleeding off altitude that way. It's not a good technique to use in traffic, so I wouldn't rely on it. And S-turns also make it harder to figure out what you did wrong: if you set up your pattern consistently, overshooting some landings will help you dial in where you need to fine-tune your approach. Changing your pattern altitudes AND S-turning AND changing where you set up introduces too many variables to see what affects what, so try to stick to changing only one thing per landing and learn from it.

For over- or undershooting, talk to your instructors. I give myself a little bit of rear risers if I'm undershooting and use my front risers if I'm overshooting, but if you do either of those too low to the ground you're asking for trouble. I'd rely on first-hand coaching for that stuff.

[mixedup 0]

@almeister112 - thanks - so you don't use toggles yourself on final sometimes for adjustment? (I'm assuming at my level I'll need to leave use of front risers, and perhaps rear risers too?, on final to further down the track)

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[almeister112 0]

Yeah, like I said, don't go messing with that stuff until you've had a talk with an instructor. Both of those techniques can cause damage. But the same is true of toggles--I know a guy who's currently recovering from a compressed vertebra from using toggles to clear some gravel and holding on too long. When he went to flare he didn't have much of anything left, so he hit hard.

I tend not to do too much on my final approach. If it looks like I'm coming in short, I'll make an acute angle on my base leg to cut the corner a bit, and if I'm still too high I'll do an obtuse base leg. Then again, my accuracy is also kinda shitty, so I'm not necessarily a good source of info on this topic.

Edited to add: I don't really use toggles on final other than minor left/right adjustments. I need to work on it, but it's not a skill I've developed.

[sagan 0]

4 Pieces of Advice:
1) Keep jumping -- experience will come, ground education is important but at the end of the day, go jump, you'll get better you won't be able to help it. You'll develop a FEELING and that's not something anyone can coach.
2) Learn the couple of basic safety necessities and stop trying to understand finer points, that will come by itself. Off the top of my head: track / clear airspace, pull, deal with opening/issues, watch out for others and plan your traffic, land and flare in any condition (cross, down, into wind)
3) As far as sashaying, being in brakes, etc, that's the first advance after understanding 1 and 2. Flying a basic square pattern is important as it is predictable and gives you and others outs. The best airplane pilots I've seen do this very same thing, doesn't matter that you are in a plane or a canopy or a glider or whatever. The best initial piece of advice that was given to me by the late Wyatt Drewes was to think of a landing pattern as a biq square vs the traditional rectangle. This means instead of a long downwind, skinny base, and medium final you have a long downwind, medium base, and medium final. In that setup you can then shorten or lengthen your base by taking a slightly longer angle on the turn to the base based on what you feel and see. By doing that you avoid low turns, reacting vs proactive flying, and you become predictable for everyone else. Has worked for me, bless his soul and it freed me from the "be at this place at 1500', this place at 1000', this place at 500' and anything other than that you'll be off" which is how you have to start as a student.
4) Find an accomplished local jumper that knows you that you can ask more detailed questions to. The fact is none of us know you and although academically these forums are fine your circumstances are unique and generally best addressed by someone that knows and sees you day in day out at the DZ.


But back to #1 -- Keep jumping :) Good luck!

-Patrick

[pchapman 262]

Just some brief comments without the fine tuning needed for good teaching technique:

Prior to turning final:

If one can't do much on final but fly straight at normal speed (eg, busy modern dz), you have to adjust things before final. So then it is a matter of at what point to turn base or turn final. Or how one turns base and final: make the turns slowly or cut the corner, rounding out base and final. Or adjust the base and final vertically by flatter turns vs. cranking into a steeper diving turn to lose altitude.

On final:
As you know, a lot of moving around on final is not desired in modern style big DZ situations.

But if it is ok to do turns, it doesn't have to be sashays with deep, steep swinging. It can also be slow braked turns.

Don't get into too deep brakes though when turning or in turbulence.

Using brakes on final will affect glide ratio over the ground but the exact effects depend on the canopy type and headwind so isn't easy to describe in full detail. But with typical medium winds, and a canopy used by novices (not super ground hungry), one could use 1/4 brakes for the start of the approach, going into more or less brake for steeper or shallower flight.

The shorter one makes the base and final, the more accurate one will be. That has to be traded off with expectations of how big the circuit should be (if there is other traffic) and with safety (too little time for a novice - don't take my idea too far). For example, if you turn final at 800 ft and have estimated one's glide angle wrongly, you'll end up four times further from the target than if you turn final at 200 ft and make the same error in glide angle. (This is before any corrective measures one might take to fix the error, which may be limited.)

Trying to land near a target is almost best done outside of the main landing area, in some place where one can indulge in accuracy techniques. In the busy modern DZ situation, landing is about doing so anywhere along a landing strip while not interfering with other traffic in the air. It isn't about landing accurately near one point along the landing strip.

[nigel99 144]

I am not sure where in the progression it is suggested that you use front or rear risers to assist in accuracy, so maybe talk to a local instructor on this.

One point to consider is using the identical parachute on every jump. It is really difficult to dial things in if every jump is "different".

Also try breaking it down into smaller chunks. Are you consistently over-shooting or under-shooting? Are you always left or right of the target?

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[popsjumper 2]

Here's and article that may help.
It talks about the use of audible altimeters for landing patterns.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=754

Here's one that talks more about landing patterns and accuracy.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=725

Here's another that talks about accuracy
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=31

Also, see if you can find TK's Accuracy Seminar. I did a light search but came up bonkers. Maybe you can find it. It talks about how to discern where you are going to land and how to adjust your canopy flight to put it where you want it.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[DaVinciflies 0]

I think the one thing that helped me was to realize that the pattern is built from the ground up, with a thought process similar to this:

1. If I want to land on target, where do I have to make my turn to final at 300'?
2. If I want to be at that spot at 300', where do I need to start my turn to base at 600'?
3. If I need to be at that spot at 600', where do I need to start my downwind at 900'?

With differing winds, the spots will change, but not the altitudes. This allows you to get used to how much time it takes to fly each leg. If all the legs lose 300' of altitude, they will all take the same time (in full flight). In Zero wind they will all cover the same amount of distance of the ground, too.

The amount of correction you can make to your pattern decreases the further you are into it. For example, you can miss your 900' point by quite a distance and still make it to your 600' point. If you miss your 600' point, you can still make some corrections to hit your 300' turn to final. Ideally, after you turn to final you will not be using any inputs other than minor harness corrections to stay on line. This allows the canopy to settle into full flight for a powerful flare.

Edited to add: The above altitudes are merely examples and are not set in stone. It is a good model for a novice to follow to improve accuracy but under certain circumstances (eg. strange wind conditions) one may have to abort the plan in the interests of safety. In those situations it may be advisable for the novice jumper to be on the ground instead of in the air!

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

The amount of correction you can make to your pattern decreases the further you are into it. For example, you can miss your 900' point by quite a distance and still make it to your 600' point. If you miss your 600' point, you can still make some corrections to hit your 300' turn to final. Ideally, after you turn to final you will not be using any inputs other than minor harness corrections to stay on line. This allows the canopy to settle into full flight for a powerful flare.

Can you tell us what kind of corrections you would be making if you missed your points as in your example here?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[DaVinciflies 0]

Quote

Can you tell us what kind of corrections you would be making if you missed your points as in your example here?

Typically, if one is too high at one point one can widen then pattern to take a longer path to the next, thereby losing more altitude on the way. For example, one could fly the downwind leg as a gentle arc instead of a dead straight line.

If one is too low then the options are to either fly in some brakes to "float" more to the next checkpoint, or to cut a corner off the pattern and join the next leg somewhere along its length. Additionally using flat turns in the pattern will reduce altitude loss.

Poor ways to deal with pattern inaccuracies include rapid, unpredictable maneuvers such as sashaying or (God forbid) whipping a 360!

Patterns are not only for accuracy, but also to help us be predictable to others to avoid collisions.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

- if one is too high at one point one can widen then pattern

-If one is too low then the options are to either fly in some brakes to "float"

-cut a corner off the pattern and join the next leg somewhere along its length.

-using flat turns in the pattern will reduce altitude loss.

Are any of those ways related to the poor ways you later mentioned?
("Poor ways to deal with pattern inaccuracies include rapid, unpredictable maneuvers such as sashaying or....whipping a 360! ")

Can you think of other ways to adjust your approach to your pattern checkpoints?

Quote

Patterns are not only for accuracy, but also to help us be predictable to others to avoid collisions.

Tell us what you think is more important - accuracy or collision avoidance?
Tell us what you know about vertical and horizontal separation in the pattern?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[mixedup 0]

thanks for the advice & links guys - I think in summary what I'm hearing overall is focus on pattern setup into final as the main technique for accurancy & try to limit any need for major corrections on final, however a little bit of correction in the early stage of final is probably ok if done carefully

Quote

Here's one that talks more about landing patterns and accuracy.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=725

re this "The D Point" article and adding another checkpoint prior to the entry into the Downwind Leg, what do you think. Probably best not to try taking this on board at my stage - rather just stick to the standard pattern.

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