USPA and FAA reg violations

[jloirsdaan 0]

I very much agree, I've seen people who have never jumped pack just fine....as well as younger kids. Thats fine and awesome in fact!! Packers are Gods gift to skydivers like me!!

These guys aren't getting paid....they are packing the rigs they jumped. Which is fine and necessary. But they are usually only shown once or maybe twice and expected to do it on their own without supervision everytime after that. Thats also fine if they get it...which most don't seem too. The DZO usually isn't very receptive to them asking for help or pointers...in fact he gets quite aggravated with them often times. Also, they pack the rigs when they are through jumping for the day...and them put them back on the shelf to be jumped another day by what usually turns out to be a first jump student...and as I said before...a malfunction requiring a cutaway was the result after one such incident where the student stated several times he/she wasn't comfortable packing. Which goes back to another issue....no AAD's used at all for static line jumps, which this one was.

Hope that clears up the situation a bit.

Jordan

Go Fast, Dock Soft.

[Scrumpot 1]

If they are packing the rigs they just jumped then who's to say they are going to necessarily be the same one's to jump it on the next jump it is used??

Just an observation/question based on one of your earlier statements you seem to be continuing with here.

-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Airgump 1]

i started skydiving at the DZ kevin is talking about and have seen some of the things going on that he is refering to.

one 'incident' that comes to mind happened when i passed through this particular DZ after completing AFF out in perris and headed to the ranch in NY on Easter weekend last year. The DZO (also pilot of the 182), a static line FJS, his jumpmaster and myself were all loaded up in the aircraft in front of the hanger. on start-up the aircraft backfired several times resulting in a fire in the engine compartment. everybody un-assed the A/C with the FJS deploying his main canopy and he departed. all those that were in the plane ran for fire extinguishers located in the hanger while the DZO was pulling engine cowlings loose. not one single extinguisher was found to be in working order. i ended up putting the fire out with 2 liter bottles of Mountain Dew. the next attempt to take the A/C to altitude resulted in the engine quiting halfway down the runway. (lucky for all involved that it didn't quit on takeoff or we'd all have been dead.)

eventually it was determined that the DZO used a water hose to wash out an old steel tank he was intent on using for fuel storage (previously a steel 55 gallon barrel was in use for fuel storage) and didn't equip the tank with any kind of sump to trap/drain any water that could migrate into there. (makes me wonder what kind of pre-flight is being done on the A/C before jump activities begin.)

that weekend was the last time i ever set foot on that DZ. this is just one instance that i witnessed while there.

kevin, you're right to be upset about what is going on there. from jumping with you at another DZ, i know that safety is 'job one' with you. let your fellow jumpers know and do what you have to towards letting others know, then find a home DZ that cares about your basic safety.

blue ones, bro!
gump

[jloirsdaan 0]

I went back and edited to add that in the earlier post...but they aren't always jumping the one they just packed....it often ends up being jumped (with the same pack job) by a first jump student.

Jordan

Go Fast, Dock Soft.

[skybytch 259]

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But they are usually only shown once or maybe twice and expected to do it on their own without supervision everytime after that.

That's how I learned to pack. And the DZO would get quite aggravated with me (and others) at times when we asked him for help. So we asked other people. In the real world (ie not the FAA's world) it doesn't take a rigger to help someone pack a main or answer a question about packing a main.

I don't see that the dzo is doing anything "illegal" or unsafe in this area. Anyone can pack a mal, doesn't matter if you've packed one main or ten thousand. Even riggers have packed mals. It's part of the sport; sometimes parachutes don't operate as they were designed to. I don't think that paying the money (whether for a student jump/gear rental that includes the pack job or for their own rig to be packed) means that the main pack job is guaranteed to work. It just means it's packed. So I don't see a problem with having students packing student mains.

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Which goes back to another issue....no AAD's used at all for static line jumps, which this one was.

None of the static line rigs where I learned/taught even had AAD's. The dz had a waiver from USPA for this; they were using the direct bag s/l system, which can be considered in and of itself a form of AAD (direct bag is where the bag is not attached to the main but is attached to the static line).

[jloirsdaan 0]

I am going to probably get flamed for this. No disrespect meant to ANYONE just an observation I have.

Seems a lot of the "older" jumpers...people who have been in the sport 10+ years....I'd go as far to say 15+...are always saying "this is how I learned, I survived and am fine." Well, my question is....there are proven and safer way of doing things now in the year 2005. So because it worked for you....it didn't work for everyone back then. The fatality rate seems to have been much higher...at least ratio wise.

So it worked for you, but should we not go with the safer way of doing things now that they are available? AADs aren't there to open mains...they are there to open the reserves as a absolute last resort....and this malfunction happened on a static line jump. So he cut it aways. No what are we relying on? A students first jump.....hopefully he will have paid attention....he obviously did...cutaway, and pulled the reserve just fine. But what if he'd been a idiot and hadn't paid attention....because he's a moron is he supposed to bounce?? Just seems to me that lots of people seem to have this opinion...."it worked for us." But there are safer ways of doing things. I'm not saying we should or could be 100% safe...nor am I saying require everyone to use AADs etc. I don't have one on my rig. I will, just haven't gotten one yet. But students I think, should be and are the exception. We should take every means necessary and available to make their induction into our sport as safe as possible. Then off of student status they can make there own conscious decision.

I ramble a lot and hope this comes off the way I intended. I have the upmost respect for the pioneers of the sport and those who came before me. I just get that a whole lot and doesn't make sense to me.....

Jordan

Go Fast, Dock Soft.

[airtwardo 6]

I ramble a lot and hope this comes off the way I intended.

***

It's coming off in the right way.

You guys are smart and you see things that aren't right...and you care enough to comment.

I think part of the discussion is aimed more toward HOW the situation is being handled....a lot of us "Old Guys" are telling you what we 'would' have done, or what could be done...

You guys that are jumping at this DZ can take it
from there, I know the DZO your talking about and he seems like a reasonable guy.

Somebody with his email addy, link this to him...I'd bet you'll see some changes.

It's ALL good!



Oh~ and edited to add:

I once heard someone ask D-1, "What's it like to be a 'Sky God'."

His answer...."When I meet one, I'll ask!"

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[jloirsdaan 0]

Thanks. I work nights here...its 2337....almost Thursday. Pointless info there.....

I sit here on DZ.com lots....read through stuff....can't get enough!! Only way I can really keep in "touch" with the sport.

Well, that and have my rig sent out here to me....theres about an 600-800ft tower just behind the camp........ Way off point...but figured I'd explain why I am kind of rapid fire with the replies.

Jordan

Go Fast, Dock Soft.

[airtwardo 6]

Currently In Iraq

***

Stay low and don't bunch up....just get back here safe okay!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[jloirsdaan 0]

Okay, thats the plan!.....175 jumps....need to make at least 1000 to be happy. And in the know . Joking.

Jordan

Go Fast, Dock Soft.

[skybytch 259]

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Seems a lot of the "older" jumpers...people who have been in the sport 10+ years....I'd go as far to say 15+...are always saying "this is how I learned, I survived and am fine."

I just get that a whole lot and doesn't make sense to me.....

You'll "get that" a lot, and not just from those who've been jumping 10, 15, 20 years. I've seen the same reasoning used by jumpers with 1, 3, 5 years in the sport to encourage new jumpers to purchase gear that's beyond their current ability ("I flew a 1.3 wingloading at 30 jumps and I was fine; you will be too").

It can also be a bit frustrating to have 10, 15, 20 years of experience and have somebody with 1, 2, 3 years in the sport telling them their experience is wrong.

Personally, I think there is a lot to be said for the way people who learned to jump 15, 20, 25 years ago were taught. There was less handholding going on - jumpers were taught from the start that it was up to them to save their own life, because it was and it would continue to be once they had a license. Skydiving wasn't marketed as Disneyland so fewer people who just maybe shouldn't leave an airplane in flight would think to go do it. But that's off topic, I'll STFU on that one.

Back to the point I had hoped to get across in the last post -

What is the purpose of an AAD? To get a canopy over a jumper's head if/when they cannot, correct? A direct bag static line system does that.

The only situations I can think of where a student on the dope rope would find himself in freefall would be if the static line wasn't hooked up (which is why s/l students are generally told to check it before exit) or if the static line had to be cut (ie if the student was in tow). In either case, the student has been trained to pull the reserve ripcord.

The rigs had RSL's as well, so if the student cutaway a main and didn't pull the reserve he'd probably survive.

The section of the BSR's that requires AAD's for student jumps is waiverable by the full USPA board of directors. If it was that unsafe for students in certain situations to jump rigs without AAD's, it would be non-waiverable.

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We should take every means necessary and available to make their induction into our sport as safe as possible.

I agree with you, and I think every jumper out there, regardless of how long they've been jumping, would agree as well.

I do not agree that not having AAD's on certain student rigs is unsafe.

[wmw999 2,126]

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Seems a lot of the "older" jumpers...people who have been in the sport 10+ years....I'd go as far to say 15+...are always saying "this is how I learned, I survived and am fine."

I didn't get that impression at all from most of them (I'm assuming I'm one of those old farts). However, since there is no skydiving police to call who will lock him up or regulate him or take him to court, whipping up a lot of righteous indignation won't do anything to help the situation, which is a substandard student program. Really. I was just trying to tell you why it won't work so well to simply tell him it's unsafe.

It's less safe -- not actively unsafe, but definitely less safe. Everyone has a risk level they're willing to accept, and obviously his risk level is higher than is standard now. But if you just tell him "you're unsafe" he'll disagree, and no one will get anywhere, because, again, there really aren't any skydiving police, and none of his students have died.

You can call the FAA to come look at reserve data cards or aircraft maintenance records. But, again -- do you want the DZ to close, or to simply start doing business by a book from the late 20th century instead of mid-century? He won't "see the error of his ways." He can be led to a better way, but getting him to admit he sucks and you were right all along probably isn't going to work. And it won't when you try it on a wife sometime either (or a husband, or a kid -- I've tried it ).

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[jloirsdaan 0]

and replys to skybytch too....Why do I feel wrong writing that!jking

Well, without all the testostermoe....the ladies come off with very good points!! I really wanted to avoid implying "old farts" sorry if it came off that way. In fact....from your picture Wendy...you'd never convince me that you have 30 yrs in the sport .

I also wasn't knocking the way the sport WAS taught. It most definitely did work. In fact, I very much agree that skydiving isn't for everyone...and sometimes the wrong people try it. It would in fact, be better if most students did come in knowing how dangerous skydiving really can be. That'd probably weed out those who needed weeding out!

The point I was getting at, wasn't that anybodies training was wrong...or flawed...or that we even do it better now. IMHO I just think if there is better and more proven safety equipment out there....we should use it. Yes, it was done relatively safe before...but why not keep striving to make it safer?

On the other hand, I am very much against anyone but skydivers stepping in to regulate and make rules...so I'd be very hesitant to involve the FAA. In fact I wouldn't involve anyone....because I like the DZO and the location...which we all pretty much like the guy and the operation....just not the student part. That is what I've been trying to do.....constructively tell him some things I observed....and usually I get blown off (maybe cause I don't know shit with 175 jumps ). Fine, I was just writing thoughts...and backing claims up. I've seen the things he takes shortcuts on....and the way he runs things...I also spend a lot of time at another GREAT DZ....and this is probably where I started seeing the differences and asking questions. I've seen how a stellar DZ is run (IMO). But hey, I love grabbing a beer at the end of the day and listening to the "old farts" tell stories. To hear our sports history.

You're also right, I see the very same thing with idiots like me....that have less than 5 yrs in the sport try and convince newbies that they'll be fine on this or that, etc. And I'd be quick to tell them to STFU and send the student to an instructor...or S&TA!

Hope I made that a little more clear. (even though I probably just made it worse ).

Jordan

Go Fast, Dock Soft.

[Andy9o8 0]

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What is the purpose of an AAD? To get a canopy over a jumper's head if/when they cannot, correct?

Correct, or if/when they DO NOT, out of fear-freeze, which is not unheard of in a first-jump student.

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A direct bag static line system does that.

It does indeed. Of course, whether that canopy malfunctions is another matter.

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The only situations I can think of where a student on the dope rope would find himself in freefall would be if the static line wasn't hooked up (which is why s/l students are generally told to check it before exit) or if the static line had to be cut (ie if the student was in tow).

Or, if the student has a cutaway.

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In either case, the student has been trained to pull the reserve ripcord.

Yeah, but it can be anticipated that some first-jump students will freeze & not follow their training.
I learned on S/L with direct bag. If I'd needed to cutaway on any of my student jumps starting with #2, I think I'd have done just fine. But on my first jump? -- whew, I'm really not sure, maybe, maybe not. I was completely frozen and greyed-out from the hop off the step until the canopy opened (at which point I was fine).

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The rigs had RSL's as well, so if the student cutaway a main and didn't pull the reserve he'd probably survive.

Agreed. Of course, there's a small chance the RSL will be disconnected.

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The section of the BSR's that requires AAD's for student jumps is waiverable by the full USPA board of directors. If it was that unsafe for students in certain situations to jump rigs without AAD's, it would be non-waiverable.

That presupposes that the people who make the rules, and permit them to be waivable, are not fallible human beings. But of course, they are. They are also replaced through attrition. That's why rules evolve over time.

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I do not agree that not having AAD's on certain student rigs is unsafe.

Agreed; however, I do think that AAD's on those student rigs is probably even safer than not (but I'm open-minded to be told otherwise by those more knowledgeable than I am).

[exnavykds 0]

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I hope you are still reading this thread..

I am Pops, thanks

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Start by asking local instructors why they are not following BSRs

The DZO has only one instructor left, the rest have quit and gone elsewhere. The one that's still there stays because he can't afford to go anywhere else. He knows that if he rocks the boat he won't be instructing there for long. I had already spoken to him about what was going on.

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Your S&TA should be spoken to

The DZO IS the S&TA

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USPA BSR violations should be reported to your USPA Regional Director

Done.

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FAA regulation violations should be reported to your local FAA Flight Standards District Office

Done.

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You can take your business elsewhere

Done.

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You have a moral responcibility to promote safe practice and ensure that those around you are not placed in unnessesary danger

I couldn't agree more. I'm thankful to everyone here who took the time to post and share with me their thoughts and ideas.

Kevin
POPS 9791, CSA 696

[exnavykds 0]

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BSR stands for Basic Safety Requirements. Many of them are waiverable.

Even better! A Requirement implies that it's REQUIRED unless waived. They're not being waived. They're being disregarded, violated, short-cut and ignored.

[skybytch 259]

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Correct, or if/when they DO NOT, out of fear-freeze, which is not unheard of in a first-jump student.

Nor is it unheard of in an "experienced" jumper. None of us know how we will react to an emergency situation until it happens to us. Some of us find out early. Others find out later. We all hope that we'll react as trained (or how we've drilled), we all tell ourselves we'll react as trained (or how we've drilled), but incident reports show that not all of us do.

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Or, if the student has a cutaway.

If the student cuts away, the RSL will deploy the reserve. I can't think of any reason for an RSL to be disconnected on a student rig other than carelessness. Are you saying that the dz in question routinely puts students out with disconnected RSL's? That I would call a safety issue.

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That presupposes that the people who make the rules, and permit them to be waivable, are not fallible human beings. But of course, they are. They are also replaced through attrition. That's why rules evolve over time.

Yes, the USPA board members are fallible human beings. As are all skydivers, regardless of their years in the sport, number of jumps, number and type of ratings, etc, etc. If someone feels strongly that the current board isn't doing the job, the process for running for a seat isn't all that difficult...

I hope no one thinks I'm supporting the dzo in question by my responses here. I know nothing about the dz or how they operate. My goal here is to point out that some of what you may be seeing may not be as dangerous as you think it is.

For those who've actively tried to change things that they feel are unsafe at the dz in question (or at any dz for that matter), good on ya for giving a shit. This sport can always use more people who care about safety enough to say something.

But as important as saying something is the ability to listen to explanations and the open mind needed to consider them.

[exnavykds 0]

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not one single extinguisher was found to be in working order. i ended up putting the fire out with 2 liter bottles of Mountain Dew

I've talked to other DZOs, S&TAs, Instructors, Pilots, and Riggers around the state (and even in Dallas), they all seem to have a horror story concerning this DZ.

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the next attempt to take the A/C to altitude resulted in the engine quitting halfway down the runway

I said earlier that I thought the place was relatively safe for licensed jumpers with their own equipment. I may have to rethink that.

Thanks Gump for your input.

-Kevin

[billvon 2,404]

>I can't think of any reason for an RSL to be disconnected on a
>student rig other than carelessness.

Or accident, per the student who had his RSL disconnect during a cutaway at Perris many moons back. After that incident, Perris put AAD's on the reserves too.

[billvon 2,404]

>Seems a lot of the "older" jumpers...people who have been in the
> sport 10+ years....I'd go as far to say 15+...are always saying "this
> is how I learned, I survived and am fine." Well, my question
> is....there are proven and safer way of doing things now in the year
> 2005. So because it worked for you....it didn't work for everyone
> back then. The fatality rate seems to have been much higher...at
> least ratio wise.

On the other hand, often us "old" jumpers who started 15 years ago have already seen that great new idea tried, and had it fail or not work much better than the old way. But then a new jumper comes along and says "you know, we should do X!" So you say "well, we tried that, and we discovered Y." They say "Figures, old jumpers want to live in the past."

There are many, many ways to train students, do RW, freefly, land canopies etc. A great many of those ways have been tried. Some work, some don't. The way we used to do it wasn't perfect; the way we do it NOW isn't perfect. But the 'old' ways often were as proven (in many cases more so!) as the 'new' ways.

[exnavykds 0]

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then a new jumper comes along and says "you know, we should do X!"

I guess what I'm trying to wrap my brain around is this - When a new jumper (like me) comes along and starts a jump course what's one of the first things you do? You hand him a SIM (which is written by smart, experienced, respected jumpers like yourself - true?) and say "read this." Why does it surprise anyone if we notice that what we read doesn't match what's really going on?

Look at it this way... (bad analogy forthcoming - lol) Lets say I've never been to church in my life and I decide to go. I go to a small country church where the preacher is also the Sunday school teacher and the organist and the youth director, and he hands me a bible and says. "Go home and study this" and I do. After a few months I start noticing that the Preacher is sneaking off into the woods with the Deacon's wife every Sunday afternoon... Now, I've read in the very book that the preacher gave me that this sort of behavior is wrong. I approach the preacher about it and he does nothing but get irate. So I start asking the church members, all of whom have been here much longer than I have, and I start getting responses like these;

"If you don't like it you should go to another church"

"This kind of thing happens at EVERY church"

"Oh that's nothing, back in my day the preachers used to do the whole choir - and hey, nobody ever got hurt"

"You haven't even been a Christian long enough to know the difference between right and wrong!"

"Oh, you mean that adultery commandment!? That's always been waiverable."

Okay, okay... this is all a little tongue-in-cheek, but you do get my point, right?

Thanks again for letting me share things from my point of view.

-Kevin

[airtwardo 6]

With logic like that...you could be a SKYDIVER!
You may not have the jump numbers Kev...but ya talk the talk AND walk the walk!!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[billvon 2,404]

>Why does it surprise anyone if we notice that what we read doesn't match what's really going on?

It doesn't suprise me.

When I started skydiving the SIM was really thin - basically the BSR's, and some stuff on the SL program, the demo rules and some high altitude charts. Shortly after I started, it started growing really, really fast. Everything got thrown into the SIM. AFF levels and descriptions. RW recommendations. After-student-status stuff. The ISP.

Nowadays it's quite the tome. I've probably read all of it at one time or another, but it's a safe bet that most jumpers (and that includes most instructors) have not read it cover to cover. They scan the areas that are applicable to them and leave it at that.

Also, some places decide to NOT do stuff that's in the SIM. Maybe they have a different take on the ISP, or they just don't want to do it. Maybe they don't think X is quite right so they do it their way.

In addition, some parts of the SIM are sorta ignored by consensus. The cloud separation requirements effectively end up as "don't punch clouds." The part about the SL JM rappelling down the static line to the hung-up student, cutting him free and then deploying his reserve - that was written by someone who had seen one too many Wally Gubbins movies.

> Lets say I've never been to church in my life and I decide to go.

Go to any church that uses a bible. You will meet people there who (sometimes) curse, who don't believe the earth is only a few thousand years old, and who work on weekends. All those things are contrary to the bible. Most people don't have a problem with that, because they don't take every part of the bible as literal truth. Same with the SIM.

The SIM is a good guide. If you don't know whether to heed its advice or not, it's generally a good idea to heed it. Once you understand the topic a little better, you may say "you know, I think X is a better way to do that!" And you might then try it, or talk to someone else about trying it. The SIM is just a place to start. (Note that I'm referring to the SIM and not the BSR's here; that's a slightly different story.)

[exnavykds 0]

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Seems a lot of the "older" jumpers...people who have been in the sport 10+ years....I'd go as far to say 15+...are always saying "this is how I learned, I survived and am fine."

The BSRs aren't continuously reviewed and revised because of the many who did things a certain way and lived to tell about it, they're for the few who wont.

[exnavykds 0]

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Go to any church that uses a bible. You will meet people there who (sometimes) curse, who don't believe the earth is only a few thousand years old, and who work on weekends.

Hey, I warned you ahead of time that it was a bad analogy! LOL

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The SIM is just a place to start. (Note that I'm referring to the SIM and not the BSR's here; that's a slightly different story.)

Very good point. The SIM in general vs. BSR's (kinda like the bible in general vs. the 10 commandments, huh? lol)

It is indeed the BSR's that are taking a beating at this DZ.

Thanks Bill for your input and advice.

-Kevin