USPA and FAA reg violations

[Hooknswoop 19]

If he was trying to trash the DZ, wouldn't he name the DZ?

Derek

[mjosparky 3]

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Actually Sparky, if you take the thread in context, I was asked what kind of rules and regs were being violated. I listed a few, certainly not all, without giving any specifics about the nature of the violations.

I believe I did take the thread in context. And you listed more than a few giving specifics and nature. In post 14 you state:

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If we are dealing with ONLY the violations I witnessed first hand, we can start with these...

BSR section H, item 3 states that manned ground-to-air communications are to be present on the dropzone during skydiving operations.

BSR section K, item 2.d states that all students are to be equipped with a functional automatic activation device (AAD) that meets manufacturer’s recommended service schedule (this is also mandated in FAA regulations, section 105.43.c).

BSR section K, item 2.f states that a steerable reserve canopy appropriate to the student’s weight be provided.

BSR section K, item 2.g states that a freefall student must be equipped with a ripcord-activated, spring-loaded, pilot-chute-equipped main parachute or a bottom-of-container (BOC) throw-out pilot chute.

FAA regulations, section 65.111 clearly sets forth the criteria as to who can and cannot pack a main parachute.

FAA regulations, section 105.43 states that a reserve parachute must have been packed by a certifificated parachute rigger within 120 days before its use.

Then you go on to say in post #21:

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I'm not sure I'm clear on how you can make the assumption that I'm over reacting since, up to this point, we are talking in hypothetical generalities.

Followed by post #22 where you list 5 more very specific items.

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It appears you may have a personal ax to grind in this deal. Is there more to this story that you are not telling us?

Sparky

No I am not defending the DZO, just wondering what the whole story is.

I have already stated I am not defending the DZO. If you read some of the threads I have posted to I think you will find I am all for safety. But you seem to be very defensive when asked a simple question. Is there more to the story then what we have heard? There are usually 2 sides to every issue and we have only heard your side.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[goose491 0]

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Nice try though.

Just what is your problem Kevin? What is with your attitude? Your definately looking for support here... but you do not tell the whole tale and get all defensive when asked to?

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I think we're missing the point here. The question is, what actions, if any, should be taken.

Well then bro, you got your answer. Didn't have to wait long.. it was in post number 2!

Now, you realise you have posted a question in a DISCUSSION forum which means you may get what you are looking for out of it, but others may feel the need to DISCUSS. If you don't want to share the details, then don't... but don't be rude about it man.

I'd like to know more details too as I beleive you have some personal agenda as well. It's not the end of the world if you don't tell me though, so don't go losin' it.

Nick

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[riggerrob 558]

You're suggesting students and customers volunteer their time to help a DZ obey the rules?

Quite frankly, that's astounding.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

That is the way the good old boys did it in the good old days when clubs dominated the sport.
Everyone donated their time and labor to pack student mains, scrounge second-hand radios, etc.
Some of those good old boys are still DZOs, doing things the same way they did back in the 1970s.
Their USPA Regional Director probably knows what is going on, and probably gently teases them about "getting with the '80s," but unless an outsider is willing to put up substantial cash, things will only change slowly.
Maybe the RD knows that the good old boy's son plans on taking over the DZ in another year or two - meanwhile the young lad is busy earning ratings - and expects things to improve after his son takes over, but all this takes time.
Sometimes it is better to have a backward DZ "in the system" and gently encourage them to improve.
USPA politics are far more complex compromises than you can imagine.
People who love sausage and laws should never see them made.

[tombuch 0]

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You're suggesting students and customers volunteer their time to help a DZ obey the rules?

Quite frankly, that's astounding.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

That is the way the good old boys did it in the good old days when clubs dominated the sport.
Everyone donated their time and labor to help repack student mains, scrounge second-hand radios, etc.

'Back in the day' skydiving was organized into self supporting clubs for the benefit of the members. These days most drop zones are commercial operations organized to generate a profit that is returned to an owner. Do you think I should assist the salespeople at a local shoe store just to be nice? Should I volunteer time at my local lawyers office to help his paying clients? Should I swing by the grocery store and stock shelves to make things easier and cheaper for the corporate owners?

Times have changed. If you jump at a club where everybody shares in the decision making and profits, then by all means volunenter to help out. If you jump at a commercial center owned by an individual or corporation, let them know what your needs are and then stand back and be a customer.

Corporate drop zones are responsible for their own marketing, operations, and profit. That's not my job as a customer.

Let's not confuse the olden days with today.

.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[ClubANON 0]

Well, I'm gonna dig this old thread up. For the sake of my buddy Kevin.

I'm probably the most non biased person you'll get to reply on this from the DZ in question. I personally like the DZO, but do find many of his practices pretty damn scary.

I have spent just about every weekend for the past year and a half at this DZ. So I see what goes on week in and week out. I've talked to people who jump elsewhere that used to jump there. I've also saw many people jumping there when I first started who have moved to different DZ's. He seems to chase a lot of people off....and these usually are the ones who bring up safety issues.

Kevin has brought this up with the best of intentions. We've talked about it, and he is genuinely concerned for the students that jump there. For licensed jumpers (with their own gear) this place is fine. The plane is kept in very good condition...landing area is sufficient, etc. The only issue is the student part of the operation. He cuts far too many corners IMHO. That said...I'm one of those that tries to help out the DZO, I do this because I also am concerned for the students that jump here.

The AADs he uses probably scare me the most. My younger brother jumped there for his first 16 jumps. Had a cutaway on his 4th because he had an extremly hard opening and it jammed the toggles between the risers and slider grommets. And on a later jump had a sentinel fire at around 600 ft or so. The good thing in this situation is it didn't really work very well. It pulled the pin partially....and not completely until he landed....which popped the pin the rest of the way out, and out came the reserve pilot chute. It was good that it didn't function properly in this situation....but if actually needed....this would have been a fatality. Which goes back to why it fired in the first place?? MY brother probably weighs 150 tops....jumping a 240 sq ft canopy. But said DZO blamed it on him....said he should have stopped doing spirals at 1500 ft. Which is funny because I've got the whole thing on video....and he'd stopped spiraling long before 1000 ft., which is where they are set to fire. I didn't really get upset...no harm no foul is the way I usually am. And my brother continued jumping...I'm just bringin up some of the specifics people seemed to want to know on here.

Radio is where I helped out when I could. The DZO is extremly short handed....and this is his own doing...at one point he had plenty of instructors....but ran two of them off....which leaves him and ONE instructor. No other coaches or anything. Around 100 (I have just under 200 now) jumps for me I started radioing students down...not because I'm really all that comfortable with it...but because if I didn't do it...no one would. So me radioing them down is MUCH better than nothing. There have been days I was jumping, and there was no one on the ground with panels, smoke, anything...just what the student learned in the class. Which is fine if the student truly paid attention....which we know students probably don't always do. There have been 2 or 3 broken legs I've seen because of no radio and obvious inattention in the FJC. So I have little sympathy for these guys...even though with radio maybe the outcome would have been different. Hey its a high risk sport S**T happens. But still.

Packing is also a M-Fker here....Okay I personally think packers are Gods gift to skydivers like me who hate packing and are lazy. And I think the FAA should go and leave us the hell alone on this issue. But what he is referring to isn't packers not being supervised...its students with less than 10 jumps being shown how to pack once or twice and then left on their own 9 times out of 10. The biggest issue I have here is after a student is left to pack his own rig while he said he wasn't comfotable yet. This happens countless times....probably just about anytime a student gets more than 5 jumps here. And is probably the #1 reason students drop off....It almost caused me to quit as a student here. I was shown how to pack 2 times.....around jump number 7 and 8. Then was left to do it on my own....and being the typical student this freaked me the hell out...as it does just about everyother student this happens too. After the two lessons....I was left totally unsupervised....and when asking the DZO and instructors to look at my packing....was told I was being to paranoid....go finish up...or ignored. Okay fine I came through okay...maybe this is why I hate packing . But on several other occasions students have voiced their concern...been told to get over it (slightly more politely said than that) and go finish packing. Only to make the jump and have a cutaway....and then told they were just ultra paranoid and didn't give the canopy proper time to open....this happened once while I was doing radio and scared the S**T out of me. Guy exits at 3500 ft....has a streamer for a good 10-15 seconds...I end up yelling "cutaway" over and over into the radio before he finally does. This is on static line with NO AAD BTW. When the student lands him and I are told we were over reacting...it was only 6 or less seconds and he need to cough up an extra 100 and something odd bucks cause he dropped his handles. So student packs a streamer after asking for help, and being denied...I'm doing radio just to help....and were both told we were wrong.

Also....reserve canopies grossly undersized.....240 lb or so students jump 170 or 180 sq ft reserves....the main is a good 270+. One incident had a student not jumping for a few weeks because of a very hard landing under one of these reserves....because of a hard pull out of a Vynl leg mounted pilot chute pouch. Which are too small usually and have no give....this is because the containers are 20 yrs old....and the spandex or whatnot has gotton worn out and he just used some bit of material he had lying around to make a new one.

Okay this is the last I'll say on this already freakishly long post. Reserves. We aren't usually talking about a month or so out of date reserve...some of the puppies haven't been packed in a year or more. Okay fine, they'll probably still open, but come on the DZO is a friggin master rigger! Some of these have reserve pilot chutes that are shifted so much that they look to be about to bust out of the side of the container. And they aren't even pencil whipped most times....go grab a reserve repack card and you'll find a date from 2004 on that joker. And another thing that was pretty humorous......packing reserves after having a few beers. Seen this happen several times. Good friend of mines brand new G4...first time its ever been packed...and he's downing another miller lite......stabbing at it with a rusty old screw driver...I'm sure the screw driver isn't hurting anything with the chute...but its a brand new rig...come on go find a non rusty one at least! But the killer is he forgot to hook the RSL up....and is trying to get the temporary pin back in under the pin...using his trusty (rusty) screw driver. This is already after putting a cypress in another rig back ass wards!

Okay this was a freakishly long post. But Kevin really has the students at heart. He has no personal vendetta with the DZO...he actually likes the guy except for this stuff. He's said so many times. I really like the DZO and the dropzone. I'll continue to jump there...because of the next DZ being 3 hrs away. Plus I will pick up the slack where I can...try and keep bitching at him to change somethings around....and picking up a radio when they have no one else. But I see the other side. I've seen things that scared me...but I wasn't gonna say anything...Kevin felt he had an obligation...at least morally to do something. He wants feedback on what other people would do. He doesn't want to see the place shut down...just some things to change. I do too...but would be too selfish to say anything. I don't want to drive 3 hrs. Thats cold and stupid maybe...but it's the truth. Like I said...I spend lots of time out here...am friends with the DZO....eat out with him just about every weekend. Stay chatting for hours after jumpings ended. Drink some beer with him. Tell him he needs to get some new AAD's, rigs, and switch some reserves around...and to quite chassing instructors off. I think I can handle his B.S. better than most. I don't care what kinda stupid crap he says....I deal with it most days at work anyway! .

P.S. To all the jumpers that I'll probably here from that still jump there (the ones that love him )...I'm not hiding behind a fake name because I will print this joker out and show him myself . I've said most of these things to him...just on my regular profile its got the DZ as my home DZ. Probably would have been stupid to post with that one! PM me if ya like ! See you guys at the DZ.

[SwampThing 0]

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To all the jumpers that I'll probably here from that still jump there (the ones that love him )...I'm not hiding behind a fake name because I will print this joker out and show him myself . I've said most of these things to him...just on my regular profile its got the DZ as my home DZ. Probably would have been stupid to post with that one! PM me if ya like ! See you guys at the DZ.

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Then why bother to post it at all?

Why so vague about who and where?

If these are factual and legitimate concerns, ring the bell and point the finger!
I have NO RESPECT for someone that "Hides" behind a fake name to make accusations. If you have something to say, say it and stand behind it!
Your post is basically meaningless dribble without identifying both yourself and the person / people you're blowing the whistle on.

The Pessimist says: "It can't possibly get any worse!"
The Optimist says: "Sure it can!"

[ClubANON 0]

I'm not blowing the whistle on anybody. Another jumper was trying to figure out whether or not he should. People were saying he seemed to be out to get the DZO. I enjoy jumping at the place. Its close to home and I like the people who jump there. Including the DZO. So I have a conflict of interest...sort of. I like the DZO and everyone jumping at the DZ. I just disagree with the way things are being run. I only jumped in to back up what the other poster Kevin was talking about. Not hiding behind a fake name. My names Jordan....Anybody at this DZ or firmilar with it will know who I am.

MY profile however, has the DZ on it. So if someone "blows" the whistle...it won't be me. They can make that decision. I've already made mine. So if you have no respect for that...fine. The post was a lot of rambling. I tend to do that. But hey....I feel I got my point across.....My buddy has a base for his claim.

[SwampThing 0]

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....Anybody at this DZ or familiar with it will know who I am.

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How about your skydiving brothers & sisters that AREN'T familiar with your name , or the place.
People that may want to know if a certain operation is being run unsafe, and stay away during their travels.

If the reserves are a year out of date, the rigger drinks while rigging, all of the comments you made
are valid concerns, that should be brought out in the open so we all can decide if we want to jump there.

But then again, you KNOW all these things and choose to continue there, so how bad can it really be?

The Pessimist says: "It can't possibly get any worse!"
The Optimist says: "Sure it can!"

[billvon 2,434]

>But then again, you KNOW all these things and choose to continue
>there, so how bad can it really be?

There is a difference between a dangerous student program and a dangerous dropzone for experienced jumpers.

[SwampThing 0]

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>But then again, you KNOW all these things and choose to continue
>there, so how bad can it really be?

There is a difference between a dangerous student program and a dangerous drop zone for experienced jumpers.

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I might have to agree to disagree with you on that one. The student program is usually the bread and butter of most drop zones, especially smaller ones. If it's being run that sloppy, it surely HAS to carry over into other areas. An unsafe operation is an unsafe operation.

The Pessimist says: "It can't possibly get any worse!"
The Optimist says: "Sure it can!"

[billvon 2,434]

> If it's being run that sloppy, it surely HAS to carry over into other areas.

I don't think that's true. I have seen (fairly) safe DZ's with terrible student programs. Basically the primary issue with a DZ for an experienced jumper is the aircraft/pilot; I know at least one DZO who is a pilot and takes good care of the plane because he flies it, but just doesn't care much about the student operation because he jumps rarely if at all.

[skydiverjerry 0]

i have read all the posts about three times,

now if all that is said is true and you stand by your word and all are facts not just ax grinding then you should not be ashamed of your identity or the identity of the drop zone.

you have a moral responcibility to promote safe practice and ensure that those around you are not placed in unnessesary danger.

you have several opptions.

report the facts to uspa. if this does not bring about improvments in safety as you see it. have photographic evidense to make your case.

report the facts to FAA. if this does not bring about improvments in safety as you see it.

your very last opption is dangerus but you could
use the media,

one more choice you have is to inform the dzo of your plan, send it in writing and invite him to sit and talk about it. he may ban you from the dz but you may make him change his opperational practices.

just a thought here though skydiving allready suffers from bad press every time there is a fatality, we are allready acused of not policing the sport,
choose wisly dont be political or unjust, if you use the facts and only the facts you will help make the sport and your home dz safer.

good luck.

[airtwardo 6]

now if all that is said is true and you stand by your word and all are facts not just ax grinding then you should not be ashamed of your identity or the identity of the drop zone.

you have a moral responcibility to promote safe practice and ensure that those around you are not placed in unnessesary danger.

***

I couldn't agree more.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[stratostar 5]

Good in theory, mate.
However, have you ever turned in a DZO to the USPA or the FAA ?
I got news for you dude, the USPA is a joke and nothing but a good old boys club and if you say or write anything they don't like your then on the shit list for life and all the higher up's turn a blind eye and have for years.
Maybe if we vote out all the ex golden douchebag's from office
then the USPA would have a lot less covering up of the truth about DZO's who blatantly bust FAR's and BSR's.

As for the fed's, they really don't care about some damm jump op's after 9-11 they have more important things to deal with
and don't care if we kill ourselfs, they only care if we kill some one on the ground falling on them.

With that said if more people who knew about all of this stuff wouldn't turn a blind eye because they don't want to be banned or lose friends, we would be safer.
But it's like drugs, no one wants to rat out thier dealer cuz then they have to find the fix elsewhere and if all the dzo's stick together and ban jumpers who speek up, where you going to get your fix? well there is always base jumping or starting you own DZ.

Go ahead tell the USPA and FAA I'll bet after you turn off the main road and take a ride on this street you'll wish you never had taken that turn off the main road and kept your blinders on !
And be ready for EVERYONE to say "you have some personal agenda "

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[NickDG 23]

>>Radio is where I helped out when I could.<<

I'll assume what you are saying is true. I'll also assume you don't have an Instructor rating. If that's true please don't talk students down on the radio. It may seem like a simple thing that any reasonably experienced up-jumper could do but if something wonky happens it can take experience with students to know what the right thing to say is.

Also, by "helping" you are enabling this DZO in shortchanging his students. Yes, I read the part about if you didn't do it, no one would (big shudder) but in the long run you're exposing yourself to a liability issue and keeping this guy in business.

The place to start would be talking with your Regional Director, but I also agree with the poster that said USPA is sometimes non-responsive to these things.

Maybe it's time for more peer pressure from within the ranks. We all have to eat the soup this DZO is spitting in so let's start a group of vigilante Instructors (The Midnight Eyes) who go around and have "talks" with DZOs like this.

PM me the DZ name and maybe Airtwardo (the enforcer) and I will go undercover, sit through his first jump course, and if it is as you say we'll rip him a new one . . .

NickD BASE 194

[mjosparky 3]

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PM me the DZ name and maybe Airtwardo (the enforcer) and I will go undercover,

You 2 under cover, I gotta see this.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[sweep 0]

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I'll assume what you are saying is true. I'll also assume you don't have an Instructor rating. If that's true please don't talk students down on the radio. It may seem like a simple thing that any reasonably experienced up-jumper could do but if something wonky happens it can take experience with students to know what the right thing to say is.

I agree that it is important to know how to deal with students, and that this is not just something that any "reasonably experienced up-jumper could do", and also that helping to run a dodgy operation is not a good idea.

But I'm not convinced that a full Instructor's rating is necessary for student talkdown. Certainly in the UK, the regs require a B licence and a Ground to Air Radio Operator's licence. Beyond that it is at the discretion of the local Chief Instructor as to who they are prepared to delegate that part of their responsibility to.

I don't have an Instructional rating yet but I did begin to learn Student Radio Talkdown from not that long after I achieved my B licence. Originally this was under direct supervision of an Instructor until I had demonstrated that I could do it, then I was allowed to do it on my own.

However, I do consider my role to be solely to do the talkdown - I don't get involved in debriefing the students in any way beyond "did you enjoy that" and similar conversation. Any comments I have to make on canopy control etc are relayed to the Instructor (out of the student's earshot) to put forward as part of his overall debrief.

Personally I think that, if carried out responsibly and properly taught this can be a good introduction to working with students and either a stepping stone towards an Instructional Rating or a way to stay involved with the Student program for those who don't want or aren't able for whatever reason to go all the way.

Of course in the event of a malfunction or similar there is a lot of responsibility to say the right thing (or more importantly not to say the wrong thing) but that is something that can be trained for to an extent, and beyond that it is down to experience - and everyone has a first time. But the personal qualities that are involved in remembering the plan, avoiding panic and giving good advice don't necessarily only magically arrive when you get an Instructor rating.

Just my opinion,


Sweep

----
Yay! I'm now a 200 jump wonder.... Still a know-it-all tho..

[mjosparky 3]

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Personally I think that, if carried out responsibly and properly taught this can be a good introduction to working with students

The key phrase being "properly taught". I got the impression they just grabbed anyone available. When "properly taught" you become an instructor.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[skydiverjerry 0]

hi there

every thing on dz.com is theory as we dont know the name of the drop zone or the dzo.

that is why it is pointless to post annon

life is a journey not to arrive at the grave in a pristine condition but to skid in sideways kicking and screaming, shouting "fuck me what a ride!.

[SwampThing 0]

The dropzone in question has to be the one in Chickasha Oklahoma. It's a small 182, club type DZ.

I've been there. Seemed like a nice place and well run from what I could tell, but I didn't pay much attention to the student end of the operation.

The Pessimist says: "It can't possibly get any worse!"
The Optimist says: "Sure it can!"

[sweep 0]

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The key phrase being "properly taught". I got the impression they just grabbed anyone available. When "properly taught" you become an instructor.

I agree with you it sounds like they grabbed anyone available.

IMHO you are only an instructor if you hold an official, approved Instructor Rating of some kind, and my post was that you can be properly taught to do talkdown without being a full Instructor.

In other words it wasn't in response to the situation at this DZ but more to the post which urged people not to do talkdown at all unless they were instructors.

Sweep

----
Yay! I'm now a 200 jump wonder.... Still a know-it-all tho..

[riggerrob 558]

In Canada you need a minimum of a Coach 1 rating before you can talk students down by radio.
Then you usually talk down a dozen or more students - while being closely supervised by a senior instructor - before you are allowed to talk them down on your own.

[exnavykds 0]

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now if all that is said is true and you stand by your word and all are facts not just ax grinding then you should not be ashamed of your identity or the identity of the drop zone.

I know this was directed at Jordan, but I gotta field this one. If anyone was just out "ax grinding" (be it myself, Jordan, or anyone else who has jumped at this DZ) wouldn't we have mentioned the name of the DZ right off the bat? I'm certainly not ashamed of my identity. If you are a licensed jumper with your own equipment you'd be in absolutely no danger at this DZ. The BSR violations all deal with students and student operations, with the exception being the drinking while packing reserves (just make sure your rig is already repacked and up to date BEFORE you arrive).

If you're an up-jumper planning on jumping in Oklahoma and want to avoid this drop zone, PM me and I'll be more than glad to tell you. But, like I said, unless you're a student or in need of a reserve repack, you have nothing to fear.

-Kevin

[exnavykds 0]

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And be ready for EVERYONE to say "you have some personal agenda"

Amen to that brother!! LOL Care to count how many times in this thread I've already heard that??

-Kevin