Using hook knives

[Avion 0]

I'm just curious why. Ever had any type of spinning malfunction?

> No, but I have unstowed only one brake just to see how fast the canopy will turn. It turned moderately slow, and I have done hard spirals diving straight for the ground, above 2500 of course.

Ever practiced pulling your hook knife out fast?

> Yes.

Ever had any training in identifying which line is causing the lineover?

> No, where can I get some?

Ever landed on rear risers?

> No, but I'm planning to do that soon. I'm waiting for a day with a steady moderate wind for my initial attempt.

Ever practiced your cutaway procedures?

> Repeatedly, before every jump.

Trying to cut the line is just a waste of valuable time, in my opinion. Cutaway procedures are quick, easy, and well practiced. Fiddle with that hook knife for a few seconds and you might suddenly find yourself under 1000 feet with no idea what to do. Bad things happen faster than good things.

> I'm only considering cutting a brake line when I am at an altitude that allows me the option. Cutting a suspension line strikes me as more involved than I want to get at this time.

So why try to cut a line? Save some time and maybe some money if all goes well?

> Historically, as you probably know, the argument goes chopping the main also involves taking on the risk of having your reserve open properly. If it is only a brake line that is over, which should become obvious when unstowing the brakes, and if the canopy is flying straight or turning slowly, it seems reasonable to take a few seconds and cut the line. If the canopy is spiraling down in a fast dive, I agree getting rid of it as fast as possible would be the best action. Even as big as my canopy is, five hard spirals equal 1000' in just a few seconds longer than freefall.

[Frenchy68 0]

Quote

I'm only considering cutting a brake line. Cutting a suspension line strikes me as more involved than I want to get at this time.

That's assuming you can tell it is a brake line. And assuming that you can tell without having to think about it for tooooo long...
I'm not trying to be argumentative with you; I am only stating MY train of thoughts regarding this particular matter.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Avion 0]

That's why I asked if there was any body out there who had cut a brake line. I have read posts where people claim,"If I had a control line over, I would cut it and land with the RRs. Why should I cut away an otherwise good main and hope the reserve opens right."

I am presuming, if the control line goes over the main, then when the toggle is unstowed and tugged the line can be seen to go to the front of the canopy instead of to the back where it's suppose to be. Zero thought, just pull and look where the moving line goes.

If it's a big tangled mess, pull red, then silver, and pray aye?

[Frenchy68 0]

Quote

That's why I asked if there was any body out there who had cut a brake line. I have read posts where people claim,"If I had a control line over, I would cut it and land with the RRs. Why should I cut away an otherwise good main and hope the reserve opens right."

I am presuming, if the control line goes over the main, then when the toggle is unstowed and tugged the line can be seen to go to the front of the canopy instead of to the back where it's suppose to be. Zero thought, just pull and look where the moving line goes.

If it's a big tangled mess, pull red, then silver, and pray aye?

There's a video of Tom Aiello using his hook knife on a brake line line over malfunctiun. However, in this particular case, tom had:
The advantage of:
- having a big ass BASE canopy
- having jump such canopies for quite some time
- quite a bit of experience
And the disadvantage of:
- not having a the option to cut away
- having to decide whether to land a lineover or trying to cut the guilty line
- a big unfriendly cliff waiting for him for a hug

Although Tom would be the best person to describe it.
There may be instances of skydivers cutting line(s) on a line over mal. There are, however, many instances of people clearing a line over mal without the use of a hook knife.
Once again, my OWN PERSONAL OPINION: I'd (try to) go for the knife as a last resort only.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Avion 0]

Quote

There may be instances of skydivers cutting line(s) on a line over mal. There are, however, many instances of people clearing a line over mal without the use of a hook knife.
Once again, my OWN PERSONAL OPINION: I'd (try to) go for the knife as a last resort only.

Hey, that's another good point. I see there are a bunch of posts about clearing lineovers with and without a knife. That will be good reading for a while.
There are also a number of good issues discussed in the "landing on the rear risers" thread.

Cheers

That's a good video.

[bob.dino 0]

Suggestion: pick those posts/threads that contain the most information, and link them in this thread. Save future generations some time .

[Guest]

***

...I used a knife twice so far to 'save my butt' and also always have one with me on every jump...
...two during demos.

[Avion 0]

Quote

Suggestion: pick those posts/threads that contain the most information, and link them in this thread. Save future generations some time

The issues about landing with the rears are basically will your canopy let you do it and did you practice. Thead here: >>> Clicky <<<

Methods of clearing lineovers are pumping the brakes, stalling the canopy with the toggles, yanking on the rear risers or particular line over, and last of all, you guessed it a hook knife. One thead that covers most of the arguments here: >>> Clicky <<<

[dtby74 0]

Totally agree Dave, identify the mal., and either get rid of it or deploy the reserve. Seconds count in a big way, especially when it comes to my life. Good point. By the way, I rarely carry one.

[pilotdave 0]

Just remember that what someone with 4000 jumps says he'll do in a particular scenario is not necessarily the best course of action for someone with fewer jumps. Someone with many cutaways might think very clearly during a malfunction and decide to spend a little more time trying to fix it before cutting away. You or I may not be clear headed at all during a malfunction, no matter how many times you've thought it through. It's just best to keep it simple when you're in a really dangerous situation. Don't expect to be able to think at all when you're having even a minor malfunction. Know EXACTLY what you're gonna do, and practice it over and over. You simply can't practice what you're planning to do. You can practice cutting away though. Reserves rarely malfunction. It's just my opinion... everybody needs to make their own choices. But this is something you might consider chatting with your instructors about if you haven't already.

Dave

[airtwardo 6]

Two for demos so that you have one on each side to cut away flags/demo gear etc? or drop one, still have another?

***

Exactly...the chance of getting something tangled up are greater with junk hanging all over you.

I want to be able to reach a knife 'easily' with either hand.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Avion 0]

This is a matter of on-going thought for me. For example:

I'm at 4500 my wave off altitude. So, I wave off and pull.

My Spectre Takes a good three seconds till the opening starts. I look forward rather than up durning that time. I only look up after line stretch and the canopy is starting to wided out.

So, if I have a PC in tow, a bag lock, or a container lock, it's going to take me 4-5 seconds to realize something's wrong. That means, I'm now at 3K or lower.

Hmm....

I should do something... NOW!

Whoops, oh yea, this is hook knife thread.

OK, well, I'm 4500....

My canopy is open but it looks like it's twisted around 1/3 of the way in from the right. It's flying level, but it's turning to the left.

Uh, WTF!

I look at my alitmeter...

I'm at 3,200'

OK, I can handle this. I got altitide; I got reserve.

Let's see...

I unstow the right toggle, and wiggle it a bit. I see the line running to the leading edge of the canopy. Cool! It's a brake line. I pull out my hook knife, and cut the control line below the eyelet...

The canopy canopy squares out, and looks good. But I'm still turning to the left... WTF!

Oh yea! Duh, the left brake is still stowed.

I unstow the left brake, and land the canopy with the rear risers.

Come to think of it, since the stall point of my canopy is below my full arm extention, and I would have to take wraps in order to stall the canopy with the toggles, which is more involved than I want to get at this point, I could first try a deep RR stall. That would be alot faster, just a second or two to try. Then, I could still try cutting the control line, or resort to chopping the main if need be.

I tend to agree with the view of cutting the main away as a last resort.

On the other hand...

I'm at 4500...

My canopy opens but the whole left half is a small, twisted ball of Sh#t.

I'm am spining fast to the right, and losing lots of altitude...

Uh, this is BAD!

PULL RED...

PULL SILVER...

F*CKING COOL!

My reserver opened. I guess, I owe my rigger beer

[bob.dino 0]

Quote

My Spectre Takes a good three seconds till the opening starts.

What do you mean by 'opening starts'?

3 seconds sounds awful long; per Bill Booth it should take 0.6-0.9s from pitch to linestretch.

[Avion 0]

Pull: Throwing out the hacky.

Start of the Opening: The lines are stretched, the canopy is out of the bag and starting to get wider than the slider.

It's a Spectre. The first time I jumped one, which was a 230 demo, the opening scared me because it easily took 2-3 times longer than the Navigators and F-111 9 cells I had been jumping durning AFF.

I said,"Oh my God, is it going to open...

is it going to open...

is it going to open...

Wow, that took a long time!"

It took 4-5 jumps just to get used to that

My openings regularly take 600-800 feet. Interestingly, the 230 Silhouette I demoed, opened almost as softly and only took about 500 feet to do it. The Navigators and the F-111 9 cells opened significantly harder.

[bob.dino 0]

Check my profile; I've 300 jumps on a Spectre 190. I'd happily agree that the openings take 600-800ft.

I'd say that canopy-wider-than-the-slider is a long time after the start of the opening and that that's what caused the confusion.

[Avion 0]

My AFF instructors said to count to 4 after pulling, before checking if the canopy is opening.

I might be counting in double time, but I get at least a good three, before I can look up, grab the risers, and see the canopy starting to spread out. So, that's at least a second and a half. In any case, I would definitely say substantially longer than 0.6 to 0.9 seconds.

[Stumpy 256]

You are not counting the same thing - 0.6 to 0.9 seconds is to linestretch, not the canopy out of the bag and half open.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[thelem 0]

Quote

>
?? Never seen any level of experience suggested for hookknife usage. Using a hookknife is like doing CPR on someone who's not breathing. You may screw it up, break ribs etc but they're dead anyway if you don't.

Yes, assuming you can identify that action is required. Doing CPR on a healthy person, or using a hook knife on a good canopy, can both be fatal. More likely it would just cause unnecessary damage to the canopy.

[Avion 0]

There was just another incident, making a total of three I know about, concerning an Omega rig porduced by Performance Variable. The video of the the second one, was a major motovator for me to jump with a HK. There was also a good video about a premature deployment that entangled a jumper's right arm in a spinning mal.

Since I have a RSL, for me the situation is complicated even futher. But, basically you have a deployment, either delibrate or premature, and for some reason you have a line entangled some where on your body or rig that is keeping the canopy from fully deploying. You cut away, but the entanglement, is still with you.

What do you do?

Pull the reserve and risk a main/reserve entanglement.

Or, pull out a hook knife, cut the entanglement, then pull the reserve.

Before yanking that reserve, remember that at least with these rigs, just doing that has worked out badly more than once.

Also, taking to long to fix a problem has worked out badly more than once.

So, should one, take a moment after cutting away to make sure they've cleared the main before pulling the reserve. Unless, you've pulled 2500 or lower, does this seem reasonable?

These scenerios have also been a major motovator for me to continue pulling high.

BTW Does anybody know of a case with one of there Omega rigs entangled like this, then clearing by itself as the reserve deployed?

[nate_1979 9]

Quote

I tend to agree with the view of cutting the main away as a last resort.

And I tend to go with the "If it isnt flying right and I dont feel safe landing it "as is"" then chop the damn thing and trust your reserve. Why the hell would I want to chop lines on my main, I can get my reserve repacked within a couple days usually.. Getting new lines put on my main canopy I would expect to take a bit longer... Also, saying that you would use your hook knife just complicates your procedures, increases the chance that you loose track of how fast your heading to the ground / how close to the ground you are, and you still might not want to land the thing after you've "fixed it" and now you have just given yourself less time to deal with your reserve before landing it so you can go find your now "more broken than before" main.

Screw that.
Not flying right? Red, silver. Period. As long as you have a good rigger and a good reserve, you should have nothing to worry about.

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[airtwardo 6]

Not flying right? Red, silver. Period. As long as you have a good rigger and a good reserve, you should have nothing to worry about.

***

How about if something is hung up on YOU?
or a horseshoe up high.

How about if your reserve deploys over the tail?

How about a line over on the reserve..it happens ~I KNOW!

How about if you land your reserve in a tree, and no body comes?

How about an AC emergency and a seatbelt that's jammed?

How about the time the cameraman's riser entangled with his helmet so he hook knifed the chinstrap?

How about if you land in Lake Otay and can't get your gear off...blub blub blub.

How about if the guy exiting ahead of you snags a boot lace and is hanging upside down from the door?


How about if....



There are too many scenarios where a 2 oz. tool can make a bad situation better to NOT carry one..or TWO!

Give it some serious thought Nate...

Pull red & pull silver took care of the 'not flying right' malfunctions you've had so far, but they were fairly simple 'standard' malfunctions of an 'open' canopy after a clean deployment. It's not always that way.

When Murphy strikes, the EP's taught in your FJC 'may' not always be enough.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[nate_1979 9]

Ok, clearly there are other things that can happen. Anything that happens after the reserve deployment obviously must be delt with at that point, clearly I'm not gonna sit there and just look at my reserve when it has a line over!

That is why I do carry a hook knife, and I've actually thought about getting a second one which might be easier to get to / use in the event that I needed it, .. But I'm just saying that I'm not gonna hook knife my main, unless ofcourse I try to chop it and it still has not left, then I'll start cutting away, literally.

I have thought about alot of these senerios, alot, dreamed about them, alot, ... Everyone gets to make up there own mind, .. But hook knifing a main just seems more problematic (is that a word?) than it's worth when you have a reserve just waiting to spring off your back at your command...

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[airtwardo 6]

Okay...i get your post now, I had to reread it a time or two!
I thought you were against carrying a hook knife.

We come from different times, in the days of a round reserve...I would rather land my main with a line or two cut than go to plan B.

And while I do agree with Sparky in his statement about not trying out your rigging skills under canopy,
I have and will cut a main line over. I can replace that line in 30 minutes...and I 've had two reserve problems in 12 tries...so I guess in the back of my mind I view it as truly the last resort.

Not saying anyone else should follow my lead, but
if it's square, over my head, not spinning...I'll land it.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[nate_1979 9]

2 reserve problems? Were these recent, or back in the day?

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[airtwardo 6]

2 reserve problems? Were these recent, or back in the day?

***

One of each...

I kind of 'blew up' several pannels of a 24" flat at terminal once, but 'hobbled' away relatively uninjured, landed in a wet bean field.

And had a packed in function of the reserve at Elsinore...some years back...but not "Back in the Day"!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~