Safe? - Photo inside

[Liemberg 0]

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please do-tell, why one would want to become "grumpy and old?"

It beats young, death, dum' and full of unused cum in every aspect, me thinks...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[stoneycase 0]

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please do-tell, why one would want to become "grumpy and old?"

It beats young, death, dum' and full of unused cum in every aspect, me thinks...

haha! i was only, humorously, trying to point out - what's the point of going through life "cautiously" only to arrive at old age and be pissed off? but again, it's all in good fun, i *am* looking forward to my grumpier-than-hell-on-my-porch-yellin-at-snot-nose-kids days. grandpa always makes me smile when he says shit like "boy you must have rocks for brains". i can't wait till it's my turn...."son, it's too bad your ugly, cause and ugly and stupid don't go together well" :)

Does whisky count as beer? - Homer
There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner
Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

[Andy9o8 0]

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i'd bet $10 that the jump was discussed beforehand with all parties and the passenger agreed (whether or not the passenger has the "right" or the "capability" to agree is a point for further discussion).

Nothing wrong with discussing it right here.
There's "decision", and then there's informed decision. In this case, they're worlds apart.
If the passenger is an experienced jumper, that's one thing. But a student tandem passenger simply does not yet have the capacity (due to lack of genuine understanding of the added risk) to make an informed decision on that.

[stoneycase 0]

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i'd bet $10 that the jump was discussed beforehand with all parties and the passenger agreed (whether or not the passenger has the "right" or the "capability" to agree is a point for further discussion).

Nothing wrong with discussing it right here.
There's "decision", and then there's informed decision. In this case, they're worlds apart.
If the passenger is an experienced jumper, that's one thing. But a student tandem passenger simply does not yet have the capacity (due to lack of genuine understanding of the added risk) to make an informed decision on that.

yeah...i guess that's my only real hang-up as well. i just can't say with a straight face that a passenger understands the risks that well to make the informed decision you're talking about. but still...

it's a good looking picture

[riggerrob 561]

Yes Sparky,

I have known and loved both Coral and Paco for years.
I probably know and trust half the other people on that load.
I might even have done a few jumps on that tandem rig when I worked in California City.
Tandem RW can be done well when properly planned, but that Mexican tandem hybrid does not look well planned.

[Trent 0]

Just ask next time... all of you.

This dive was planned on the ground and dirt dived a few times.

The hanger is a TM and AFFI.

I am the freeflyer docking on her wrist.

This was one of her first tandems.

Her boyfriend is an experienced jumper who had a pretty serious accident last year. He still jumps. She knows about the accident.

I'm pretty sure she didn't pay.

What else?

Oh, hello again!

[johnny1488 1]

Why not do it with an expierienced jumper if it is just for the pic?

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[Trent 0]

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Why not do it with an expierienced jumper if it is just for the pic?

As I said before... her boyfriend is an experienced jumper and she wanted to do something different. It wasn't just for a picture.

Oh, hello again!

[lisamariewillbe 1]

She was still a student, having a boyfriend thats an experienced skydiver does not make her one... Shayna Richardsons boyfriend was an experienced skydiver too.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[Trent 0]

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She was still a student, having a boyfriend thats an experienced skydiver does not make her one

What's your point? She wanted to do it, understood that skydiving was risky due to her boyfriend's prior accident.

Besides the fact that people act like they've never done any tandem RW with a first time tandem, which is bullshit, it happens everywhere... what is the importance of the fact that she is a "student"?

I guess I could sit here and tell you that she understood the risks till I was blue in the face, but most of you would just come back with the "she can't possibly understand since she's not a skydiver."

For my part, I've docked on tons of tandems in a sit. Should they have all been experienced passengers too?

Oh, hello again!

[stratostar 5]

Ok what about the other photos going around from the same people ( I assume) seem there is a habit of doing 3D with tandems there, even if it's mexico.
It don't make it safe or a smart thing to do. Docking is one thing, hanging under is another all together, just seems foolish to add the risk.
JMO.

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Trent 0]

I've seen it done twice... once with an ex-student jumper who came back with their jumper boyfriend and wanted to do something special. The second time was here in this picture. Any other times, I wouldn't know about.

I've never hung under a tandem and I wouldn't want to do it for my own sake. I don't see how it'd be any more dangerous than a normal hybrid or taking a heavier student on a tandem, however. Sure, you can imagine some bizarro scenarios that *might* happen, but for every one of those, I'll match it with one from a normal skydive.

Oh, hello again!

[stratostar 5]

Sure, you can imagine some bizarro scenarios that *might* happen,
(quote)

I wouldn't call a premature opening a "bizarro scenario", due to the fact is has happened more then once and everyone of the people I know that has had it happen to them didn't think it would happen, yet it did.

but for every one of those, I'll match it with one from a normal skydive.(quote)

That's ok, no need to get in a pissing contest here.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this subject.

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Trent 0]

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I wouldn't call a premature opening a "bizarro scenario", due to the fact is has happened more then once and everyone of the people I know that has had it happen to them didn't think it would happen, yet it did.

So ALL hybrids are unsafe regardless of any of the jumpers' experience since no one could react fast enough to avoid a premature happening underneath them.

If that's the way you want to go with it, I understand. I disagree, but I understand.

Oh, hello again!

[Liemberg 0]

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So ALL hybrids are unsafe regardless of any of the jumpers' experience since no one could react fast enough to avoid a premature happening underneath them.

Make that: No one with a passenger strapped in front and a drogue trailing behind could react fast enough to avoid a premature happening underneath them. There is simply no possibility for him to get out of the way in a split second, even if he reacts fast enough. And there are four arms, four legs and a drogue...

The problem isn't RW with a tandem. Also the problem isn't sitflying next to the tandem while holding hands with the passenger. The problem isn't "all hybrids being inherently unsafe"...

The problem is the guy hanging on to the passenger. That is not the place to be when you put some extra stress on your reserve ripcord housing and maybe find out that the cable lenght and/or free movement isn't right...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[stratostar 5]

So ALL hybrids are unsafe (quote)

No thats not what I'm saying, 3D's with tandems are however. Again JMO, we can agree to disagree.

I would add that yes doing a 3d is adding a higher risk to everyone involved, I have no problem with jumpers (not tandems) doing it as long as they understand the added risk and plan for it.

It may not have happened yet,(premature opening) but one day it will, and if it's the hanger, who ever is above is in for a world of shit when it dose, I think we will see someone go in one day from this "bizarro scenario", but I hope not.

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[davelepka 4]

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So ALL hybrids are unsafe regardless of any of the jumpers' experience since no one could react fast enough to avoid a premature happening underneath them.

Kinda, yeah. It's a risk that people take, but it is there. On a regular hybrid, the risk is the hanger, and his two closing loops. I would guess that a premie by the base guy would be no more than a good kick in the head to the hanger.

On a tandem, the trap door effect makes a premie by the tandem an additional problem. Also, the complexity fo the rig adds to it. How many parts are there involved in keeping the drouge in place? All of them are potential failure points (in addition to the hangers two loops).

On top of this, you have the higher body count when you hang from a tandem. It just seems that the small number of factors involved in a regular hybrid is an OK risk, while the tandem pushes the risk factor even further, and multiplies the number of potential problems.

[johnny1488 1]

The problem is that a Tandem is not a normal skydive. On tandem RW you can do it safely, docking from the right and then around. What if the student deployed while someone is hanging? What if, what if , what if.

By minimizing the risk, you make the jump "safer". And I dont think she can really comprehend the risk. She knows skydiving is dangerous. I dont think she knows that tandem hybrids are more dangerous than tandew RW or a regular tandem.

Nothing happened and thats cool. But lets not get into the "this is the future of skydiving" rants. Anything that endangers students endangers skydiving as a whole. We don't need that kind of publicity.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[billvon 2,435]

>I don't see how it'd be any more dangerous than a normal hybrid . . .

This bears repeating:

A tandem is NOT just another skydive. The risks are higher, the list of things that can do wrong is much longer, the potential for injury are doubled even if everything else is equal (which it isn't.)

Also, even if it is no more dangerous than a normal hybrid - would you really take a student on a hybrid? I wouldn't. Students are not there for our amusement; they are not even there for their _own_ amusement. They are there to learn to skydive, and the instructor's primary jobs are to a) keep the student safe during the jump, b) make decisions in lieu of the student (who cannot make informed decisions) and c) teach the student how to skydive safely. c) is often neglected by tandem factories, sadly. I really hope we don't start to see a) and b) neglected often as well.

[Trent 0]

I won't defend doing tandem hybrids as "the next big thing", but I won't listen to the BS about how she couldn't have understood the risk. She probably understood the risks of skydiving better than some of us do because of her boyfriend's accident. Don't beleive me? How many times have we told someone not to do something because it's dangerous only to have them say, "it is?" All I can say to you all is that she was briefed for a while. What they said, I'm not 100% sure because it was in Spanish, but it looked pretty thorough.

Anyone thinking that a sport jumper with a hanger having a premature could avoid it is kidding themselves. All hybrids suffer from that risk. Now, the point about "killing" two birds with one stone is valid, I agree. But what can you do when 2 adults make that decision in a country with little to no regulation?

And for the point about overstressing the harness and attachment points... Do you think having a hanger with a lightweight girl passenger is stressing that harness more than the opening shock with a 220lb passenger?

Either way, it happened, it may happen again there. We probably will never see it here, and that doesn't upset me at all. There's always going to be people who think something is irresponsibly unsafe when others don't.

Oh, hello again!

[Trent 0]

Re-read the parts where I, clearly in vain, explain the "students" situation. All of those disagreeing with her capacity to understand risks, I've noticed, weren't there.

So they hybrid aspect of this jump added more risk than any normal hybrid jump. Or is it that the sum total of risks is higher because of the fact that it's a tandem?

Like I've said, I wouldn't hang or be hung from on a tandem. I also wouldn't take super huge people on tandems. Other instructors would. I'd recommend contacting the dropzone in Mexico directly and bitching to them.

Oh, hello again!

[stratostar 5]

I'd recommend contacting the dropzone in Mexico directly and bitching to them.
(quote)

Wouldn't that be like pissing into the wind.
After all you said,

But what can you do when 2 adults make that decision in a country with little to no regulation?
(quote)

You have a valid point.

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[billvon 2,435]

>Or is it that the sum total of risks is higher because of the fact
>that it's a tandem?

Any hybrid is slightly more risky. A hybrid with a tandem is more risky still. The thing that makes it TOO risky (in my view) is that there is a student involved. Worse yet, it's a girlfriend; that makes the likelihood of bad decisionmaking much, much higher.

[Praetorian 1]

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Anyone thinking that a sport jumper with a hanger having a premature could avoid it is kidding themselves. All hybrids suffer from that risk.

I'm glad you said it, Hybrids are fun, and it would suck to have a hanger premature... but to pretend that when something (a parachute or pilot chute) stops or drops 90mph or more relative to your velocity 3ft in front of your face... your gonna hit it. drogue or no drouge reflexes of a cat or not the only way the base will not get hit by the premature of a hanger is if IT misses THEM.

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[billvon 2,435]

> but to pretend that when something (a parachute or pilot chute)
> stops or drops 90mph or more relative to your velocity 3ft in front of
> your face... your gonna hit it.

Pretend or not, Rick Horn has videos of AFF-I's doing just that, in his "stupid student tricks" video. He uses it as a warning to not get over the top of the student. In one I recall, the PC comes very close to the JM, but he backs up in time to avoid the d-bag. Of course that's not to say that it's always doable, or that it's a good idea to rely on the ability to do that. Much better to avoid the area above/below a student altogether.