Christians don’t believe in Democracy

[JoeWeber 2,315]

7 minutes ago, jaybird18c said:

Who is "they?"

They who believe that the Bible is the word of God and use it to support their faith, you know, by quoting it as evidence. 

I guess you're taking a pass on the opportunity to proselytize here by offering up the power of your own personal narrative of how you received Christ. Why?

[gowlerk 1,915]

4 minutes ago, jaybird18c said:

What specifically are you talking about?

Well Jay.....I'm using sarcasm to point out that the Bible is a book of fables and that relying on its words as a reference in an argument is both pointless and a little feeble. As John said.

Edited August 31, 2023 by gowlerk

[jakee 1,257]

1 hour ago, jaybird18c said:

We live in a Republic, not a democracy. 

It’s not an either or situation. Again, this is really basic stuff.

1 hour ago, jaybird18c said:

 And a Christian might kill to defend his country. However, he/she would NEVER kill to get what he/she wanted politically.

Did you only serve in combat against countries which had directly attacked the USA?

If you’d been ordered to Iraq in 03 instead of Afghanistan would you have gone?

[gowlerk 1,915]

2 hours ago, jaybird18c said:

I don't know any American Christian who would EVER want a theocracy. And a Christian might kill to defend his country. However, he/she would NEVER kill to get what he/she wanted politically.

Just because you don't know them does not mean they are not out there. Have you not heard of white christian nationalism? Here is what the Baptist News thinks about it. Even they are worried.

https://baptistnews.com/article/christian-nationalism-is-a-danger-to-our-nation/?gclid=Cj0KCQjw9MCnBhCYARIsAB1WQVV4BrUqIu3VYBsR_Otk5V_sG0Z5HBR-knamazomxu522kIxdcPUnmEaAgthEALw_wcB

[jaybird18c 4]

17 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

They who believe that the Bible is the word of God and use it to support their faith, you know, by quoting it as evidence. 

I guess you're taking a pass on the opportunity to proselytize here by offering up the power of your own personal narrative of how you received Christ. Why?

Would that make a difference? I'll summarize. I was not raised in a practicing Christian home. It was more of a "cultural" Christianity for us (e.g. extended family members were Christian and we'd attend church (Methodist) maybe on Easter Sunday to make the grandparents happy). I've always had a sense that God was real and that I was separated from him. However, I had very little spiritual conviction at that time. I didn't want anything to do with God. It cramped my lifestyle. I even referred to myself as atheist for much of that time. I was all about me. Until finally, after many years of ignoring him, the things I've done piled up so high that my conscience could no longer manage. Life circumstances were also vey hard. 26 years of age is when I began asking the real questions that mattered. My brother-in-law had many deep and sometimes argumentative conversations with me. I began to understand who God is, who I am, my sin, its consequences, and what my response should be in light of what he did for me. God called me through his Word to repent and believe. I placed my faith in him.

[jaybird18c 4]

48 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Well Jay.....I'm using sarcasm to point out that the Bible is a book of fables and that relying on its words as a reference in an argument is both pointless and a little feeble. As John said.

So your spiritual gift is sarcasm. I can appreciate that!

[jaybird18c 4]

27 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Just because you don't know them does not mean they are not out there. Have you not heard of white christian nationalism? Here is what the Baptist News thinks about it. Even they are worried.

https://baptistnews.com/article/christian-nationalism-is-a-danger-to-our-nation/?gclid=Cj0KCQjw9MCnBhCYARIsAB1WQVV4BrUqIu3VYBsR_Otk5V_sG0Z5HBR-knamazomxu522kIxdcPUnmEaAgthEALw_wcB

I didn't read your article. I refer you to the WMW999 quote "When you look for justification for a point you can usually find it."

[jakee 1,257]

7 minutes ago, jaybird18c said:

I've always had a sense that God was real... I even referred to myself as atheist for much of that time. 

See this is again where you simply don't have any basis for understanding a conversation on this topic, otherwise why would you ever have called yourself an atheist when you were not one? An atheist is not someone who has rejected god. An atheist is someone who thinks that god is not real. It's literally the only criteria.

[gowlerk 1,915]

3 minutes ago, jaybird18c said:

I didn't read your article. I refer you to the WMW999 quote "When you look for justification for a point you can usually find it."

I will briefly summarize for you. It is an opinion piece in a Baptist oriented publication warning of the danger to America posed by a growing white nationalist movement that thinks the nation should be governed as a "Christian Nation". The infamous Lauren Bobbitt is quoted as one of its proponents.   

[jaybird18c 4]

1 hour ago, jakee said:

It’s not an either or situation. Again, this is really basic stuff.

Did you only serve in combat against countries which had directly attacked the USA?

If you’d been ordered to Iraq in 03 instead of Afghanistan would you have gone?

1st question: I've been to many countries on many different types of deployments. I've served in allied countries. I've served in what were classified as hostile fire zones. There have only been two times in my career when I was involved in actual combat situations. The first was when I was 21 years old during Desert Storm. However, the ground war ended so quickly that my team did not go. We were then deployed elsewhere. The second time was during Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan. I was downrange September 2002 - March 2003. I watched the invasion of Iraq take place in a tent on TV. I remember thinking to myself that they'd better find WMD or they'd own this thing. I sincerely believed that it must have been there given what had happened during Desert Storm. That turned out not to be the case. I'm quite sure there were lies at high levels to justify action. I do not believe now that it was justified. Long story short in answer to your question. No.

2nd question: Yes. I was not deployed to Iraq. However, if I had been, I would have had to go and I would have done my duty.

Edited August 31, 2023 by jaybird18c

[jaybird18c 4]

10 minutes ago, jakee said:

See this is again where you simply don't have any basis for understanding a conversation on this topic, otherwise why would you ever have called yourself an atheist when you were not one? An atheist is not someone who has rejected god. An atheist is someone who thinks that god is not real. It's literally the only criteria.

Well...it could have been, and I think it was, that at the time, I didn't fully understand the meaning of the word. However, the word atheist is many times thrown around kind of casually. If you insist on being strict about it in order to justify your saying I "have no basis for understanding a conversation on this topic" because of a single word you read, I'll ask you this. Do you possess all knowledge?

[jaybird18c 4]

15 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

I will briefly summarize for you. It is an opinion piece in a Baptist oriented publication warning of the danger to America posed by a growing white nationalist movement that thinks the nation should be governed as a "Christian Nation". The infamous Lauren Bobbitt is quoted as one of its proponents.   

Is ISIS correct in their theology and do they represent all of Islam? 

[normiss 622]

8 minutes ago, jaybird18c said:

Is ISIS correct in their theology and do they represent all of Islam? 

ISIS is used to distribute IP routing information throughout a single Autonomous System in an IP network.

[gowlerk 1,915]

14 minutes ago, jaybird18c said:

Is ISIS correct in their theology and do they represent all of Islam? 

Of course not. And I don't think of you or most professed Christians as white nationalists either. But they are out there and must be guarded against. 

 

16 minutes ago, jaybird18c said:

I didn't fully understand the meaning of the word.

There is a lot of misunderstanding of that word. Even among people who would call themselves atheist. I am an atheist in that I believe none of the religious beliefs held by the various branches of humanity have any validity at all. They are all equally false. At the same time I feel that the very nature of my existence, and all of ours, is and shall remain an unfathomable mystery. I have learned to be fine with that because I must. You and many others have a different need. I respect that. I do not appreciate your need to change my mind and I feel no need to change yours.

Edited August 31, 2023 by gowlerk

[jaybird18c 4]

15 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Of course not. And I don't think of you or most professed Christians as white nationalists either. But they are out there and must be guarded against. 

 

There is a lot of misunderstanding of that word. Even among people who would call themselves atheist. I am an atheist in that I believe none of the religious beliefs held by the various branches of humanity have any validity at all. They are all equally false. At the same time I feel that we very nature of my existence, and all of ours, is and shall remain an unfathomable mystery. I have learned to be fine with that because I must. You and many others have a different need. I respect that. I do not appreciate your need to change my mind and I feel no need to change yours.

"Unfathomable mystery." You don't possess all knowledge... I agree... So...you're...agnostic? I can respect that!

Edited August 31, 2023 by jaybird18c

[gowlerk 1,915]

14 minutes ago, jaybird18c said:

Unfathomable mystery... You don't possess all knowledge... I agree... So...you're...agnostic? I can respect that!

You could look at it that way if it makes you feel better. I'm not sure why you would be surprised that an atheist doesn't think he possess all knowledge. I don't believe in a creator of any kind. Theists do and when asked about the creation of the creator simply reply that the creator always existed. Which I see as simply an effort to remove one layer of the mystery of existence. Atheists are people who don't feel the need to fool themselves that they understand. Theists are the ones who think they possess knowledge of the unknowable. In the end we know nothing.

Edited August 31, 2023 by gowlerk

[jaybird18c 4]

2 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

You could look at it that way if it makes you feel better. I'm not sure why you would be surprised that an atheist doesn't think he possess all knowledge. I don't believe in a creator of any kind. Theists do and when asked about the creation of the creator simply reply that the creator always existed. Which I see as simply an effort to remove one layer of the mystery of existence. Atheists are people who don't feel the need to fool themselves that they understand. Theists are the one who think they possess knowledge of the unknowable. In the end we know nothing.

Do you speak for all "atheists" with your definition, because you referenced "feelings?"

Edited August 31, 2023 by jaybird18c

[gowlerk 1,915]

Just now, jaybird18c said:

Do you speak for all "atheists" with your definition?

I speak for my understanding of atheism. As I said earlier belief is a very personal thing. No two people think exactly the same about it. One of my favourite expressions of it comes from a song written by Laura Nyro at the ripe and wise old age of seventeen. "I can swear there ain't no heaven. But I pray there ain't no hell." 

[kallend 1,635]

17 minutes ago, jaybird18c said:

. . . 

Do you think specifically Christian beliefs** should drive legislation that affects non believers? 

 

** so this excludes moral codes that are universal, like prohibitions on murder, stealing, perjury, etc. which long predate Christianity, such as found in The Book of the Dead, the Code of Hammurabi. . ..

[jaybird18c 4]

12 minutes ago, kallend said:

Do you think specifically Christian beliefs** should drive legislation that affects non believers? 

 

** so this excludes moral codes that are universal, like prohibitions on murder, stealing, perjury, etc. which long predate Christianity, such as found in The Book of the Dead, the Code of Hammurabi. . ..

I believe our republic should function constitutionally, as founded. "Separation of Church & State," is a principal, not in the Constitution, but that I agree with. I do not think that the church should dictate policy. That is theocratic. Separation of Church & State, however, does not mean removal of Christianity from government. Elected leaders are absolutely able to and should let their religious and moral beliefs (e.g. conscience) inform their decisions.

Edited August 31, 2023 by jaybird18c

[JoeWeber 2,315]

1 hour ago, jaybird18c said:

Would that make a difference? I'll summarize. I was not raised in a practicing Christian home. It was more of a "cultural" Christianity for us (e.g. extended family members were Christian and we'd attend church (Methodist) maybe on Easter Sunday to make the grandparents happy). I've always had a sense that God was real and that I was separated from him. However, I had very little spiritual conviction at that time. I didn't want anything to do with God. It cramped my lifestyle. I even referred to myself as atheist for much of that time. I was all about me. Until finally, after many years of ignoring him, the things I've done piled up so high that my conscience could no longer manage. Life circumstances were also vey hard. 26 years of age is when I began asking the real questions that mattered. My brother-in-law had many deep and sometimes argumentative conversations with me. I began to understand who God is, who I am, my sin, its consequences, and what my response should be in light of what he did for me. God called me through his Word to repent and believe. I placed my faith in him.

Thank you.

[JoeWeber 2,315]

7 minutes ago, jaybird18c said:

I believe our republic should function constitutionally, as founded.

Forgive me if I take that non answer to mean that you do think some things need to be imposed on non believers.

[jaybird18c 4]

7 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Forgive me if I take that non answer to mean that you do think some things need to be imposed on non believers.

I expanded on my thought above. Sorry about that. I believe decisions should be made democratically within our representative form of government. If you look at it the other way around, there are states in which very non-Christian principals are applied and "forced on believers," as you put it. That's America. Vote wisely!

Edited August 31, 2023 by jaybird18c

[jakee 1,257]

1 hour ago, jaybird18c said:

Well...it could have been, and I think it was, that at the time, I didn't fully understand the meaning of the word. However, the word atheist is many times thrown around kind of casually. If you insist on being strict about it in order to justify your saying I "have no basis for understanding a conversation on this topic" because of a single word you read, I'll ask you this. Do you possess all knowledge?

Yeah… the thing is Only a couple of days ago you were very keen on us knowing that you “once also did not believe”. you brought it up because you want us to know that you get where we’re coming from and you’ve been there too. But you haven’t. You were never an atheist. You always believed. You are not and were not ever the same. If you think (as you appear to, and as many of you cohorts do) that you’re just further along the same sliding scale of attitudes to Jesus as we are, you couldn’t be more wrong.

 

 

[jakee 1,257]

1 hour ago, jaybird18c said:

2nd question: Yes. I was not deployed to Iraq. However, if I had been, I would have had to go and I would have done my duty.

So you’d have gone, even though it had nothing to do with what you just said would make a Christian justify killing (defending their country) and even though you had serious doubts about whether even the stated justification was true.

The only reason I’m questioning this is because you just claimed that Jesus would bring peace to the world. I asked you how that was going to happen and you didn’t answer. But again, seeing as he wouldn’t have stopped you from going to fight a dodgy war started by another devout Christian, how is Jesus going to bring peace?