"Ten Reasons why People who Support Wind Farms Are Deluded, Criminal or Insane. Which One Are You, Vince Cable?"

[billvon 2,435]

A good overview of the benefits of wind to Texas from Forbes: http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterdetwiler/2014/11/10/benefits-of-texas-wind-energy-estimated-to-exceed-3-3-annually/

========================
Benefits of Texas Wind Energy Estimated to Exceed $3.3 Billion Annually
Comment Now

11/10/2014

The American Wind Energy Association (AWEA) has just come out with an analysis highlighting the value of wind energy to the state of Texas, indicating that the overall societal benefits of the wind resource add up to about $3.3 billion annually. The gross annual savings to consumers are estimated at $1.2 billion.

As with any such analysis, the outcome depends upon specific assumptions that are made. However, whether the number is high or lower, the analysis – and its conclusions – is worth considering. Let’s break down the $3.3 billion number into its constituent elements so that we can better assess what is being put forth. . . .

In summary, there may be some legitimate disagreement among reasonable people as to the exact values assigned to each of these six categories. Some numbers may be higher and others lower. Economic models are – and must be – predicated upon reasonable assumptions. But at the end of the day, it appears fairly clear: the economic value of wind resources to Texas is considerable. It is a lesson other markets should be mindful of as they plan for their energy futures
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[rushmc 18]

JerryBaumchen

Hi rush,

Quote

Two of the more interesting ones

And a 3rd one from today's edition of THE OREGONIAN newspaper:

http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2014/11/how_wind_power_helps_rural_ore.html#incart_river

You will probably disregard it but it is an interesting perspective IMO.

Jerry Baumchen

Actually the tax base raises a good bit of money for the coutny and state. A fact. But, as to saving anyone any dollars for electricity? That takes a bit of number massaging to come up with.

Until some level of power storage is come up with, wind generation only increased the cost of electicy production.
I do not care WHAT the wind power associdation says

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,435]

>Until some level of power storage is come up with, wind generation only
>increased the cost of electicy production.
>I do not care WHAT the wind power associdation says

OK. Here's the NYT, with links to a study by Lazard, which is an investment banking group:

=============
Solar and Wind Energy Start to Win on Price vs. Conventional Fuels

By DIANE CARDWELL
NOV. 23, 2014

For the solar and wind industries in the United States, it has been a long-held dream: to produce energy at a cost equal to conventional sources like coal and natural gas.

That day appears to be dawning.

The cost of providing electricity from wind and solar power plants has plummeted over the last five years, so much so that in some markets renewable generation is now cheaper than coal or natural gas.

Utility executives say the trend has accelerated this year, with several companies signing contracts, known as power purchase agreements, for solar or wind at prices below that of natural gas, especially in the Great Plains and Southwest, where wind and sunlight are abundant.

Those prices were made possible by generous subsidies that could soon diminish or expire, but recent analyses show that even without those subsidies, alternative energies can often compete with traditional sources.

. . .

“Wind was on sale — it was a Blue Light Special,” said Jay Godfrey, managing director of renewable energy for the company. He noted that Oklahoma, unlike many states, did not require utilities to buy power from renewable sources.

“We were doing it because it made sense for our ratepayers,” he said.

According to a study by the investment banking firm Lazard, the cost of utility-scale solar energy is as low as 5.6 cents a kilowatt-hour, and wind is as low as 1.4 cents. In comparison, natural gas comes at 6.1 cents a kilowatt-hour on the low end and coal at 6.6 cents. Without subsidies, the firm’s analysis shows, solar costs about 7.2 cents a kilowatt-hour at the low end, with wind at 3.7 cents.

“It is really quite notable, when compared to where we were just five years ago, to see the decline in the cost of these technologies,” said Jonathan Mir, a managing director at Lazard, which has been comparing the economics of power generation technologies since 2008.

Mr. Mir noted there were hidden costs that needed to be taken into account for both renewable energy and fossil fuels. Solar and wind farms, for example, produce power intermittently — when the sun is shining or the wind is blowing — and that requires utilities to have power available on call from other sources that can respond to fluctuations in demand. Alternately, conventional power sources produce pollution, like carbon emissions, which face increasing restrictions and costs.

But in a straight comparison of the costs of generating power, Mr. Mir said that the amount solar and wind developers needed to earn from each kilowatt-hour they sell from new projects was often “essentially competitive with what would otherwise be had from newly constructed conventional generation.”

=====================

[billeisele 122]

Mr Bill - I can say that those numbers don't hold true for solar on the east coast, so I'm not sure what costs were included or excluded but clearly something is missing

and over here you can forget wind, it isn't even close, it is 2-3X more expensive in the best scenarios

but what I really like is this paragraph: Mr. Mir noted there were hidden costs that needed to be taken into account for both renewable energy and fossil fuels. Solar and wind farms, for example, produce power intermittently — when the sun is shining or the wind is blowing — and that requires utilities to have power available on call from other sources that can respond to fluctuations in demand.

That paragraph is what is widely ignored but yet such a clear and expensive issue. Clearly energy storage solves that problem but we aren't there yet.

I'm not anti-renewable but am anti-uneconomical decisions. The costs of grid intregration have to be included. That is another big problem and one that is not easily solved. In areas that have a wide dispursement of RE they are seeing grid disturbances, line coordination issues, nuisance tripping, etc. There are a couple studies that have been and are being done in NC. They have a problem there now and expect it to get worse.

One thing for sure, it's getting more interesting every day.

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[rushmc 18]

this was also noted in your post

Quote

Mr. Mir noted there were hidden costs that needed to be taken into account for both renewable energy and fossil fuels. Solar and wind farms, for example, produce power intermittently — when the sun is shining or the wind is blowing — and that requires utilities to have power available on call from other sources that can respond to fluctuations in demand.

AND
one of the biggest owners in the US still says wind makes no sense without the tax incentives

And
Power storage will change this
And it looks like it may be coming

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

billeisele

Mr Bill - I can say that those numbers don't hold true for solar on the east coast, so I'm not sure what costs were included or excluded but clearly something is missing

and over here you can forget wind, it isn't even close, it is 2-3X more expensive in the best scenarios

but what I really like is this paragraph: Mr. Mir noted there were hidden costs that needed to be taken into account for both renewable energy and fossil fuels. Solar and wind farms, for example, produce power intermittently — when the sun is shining or the wind is blowing — and that requires utilities to have power available on call from other sources that can respond to fluctuations in demand.

That paragraph is what is widely ignored but yet such a clear and expensive issue. Clearly energy storage solves that problem but we aren't there yet.

I'm not anti-renewable but am anti-uneconomical decisions. The costs of grid intregration have to be included. That is another big problem and one that is not easily solved. In areas that have a wide dispursement of RE they are seeing grid disturbances, line coordination issues, nuisance tripping, etc. There are a couple studies that have been and are being done in NC. They have a problem there now and expect it to get worse.

One thing for sure, it's getting more interesting every day.

Most of his numbeer come from wind association studies


and I agree
Things may change soon

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[JerryBaumchen 1,066]

Hi rush,

Quote

Two of the more interesting ones

And another interesting one ( submerged turbines ): http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/11/tech/innovation/scotland-underwater-turbines/index.html?hpt=hp_c4

Always interesting stuff,

Jerry Baumchen