Time to stop this embarrassing farce

[Amazon 7]

PLFXpert

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Why does the US need to be uniquely vengeful among western democracies?

I never argued the death penalty was vengeful. I am not sure those who favor it support it out of vengence. I did say (imo) life in prison seems like the harsher sentence to serve; would that not make life in prison more "vengeful" if vegenence was my goal/argument (it is not)?

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People (including women) in the rest of the civilized world seem to manage OK.

Or you could say people here (including women) seem to manage OK with it. Not sure what speculating to what extent people manage OK has to do with it.

Judging from the responders here in many threads, that vengeance and retribution is indeed the desired outcome. Some it seems are just plain blood thirsty and if they could torture someone to death for what they perceive as heinous crimes, they would support the most brutal death imaginable.

Evidence the fact of the tortured execution of the perp in Oklahoma.


Lockett’s lawyer, David Autry, described the scene of the execution as being “like torture.” Autry added, “This was botched. It was difficult to watch.” The first drugs, a painkiller and a sedative, were not administered properly according to reports. Authorities failed to notice this and began administering a paralytic and a drug to make Lockett’s heart stop. Those drugs went into Lockett’s system successfully. Though without the painkiller and sedative, Lockett would have been in agonizing pain.

[PLFXpert 0]

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Evidence the fact of the tortured execution of the perp in Oklahoma.


Lockett’s lawyer, David Autry, described the scene of the execution as being “like torture.” Autry added, “This was botched. It was difficult to watch.” The first drugs, a painkiller and a sedative, were not administered properly according to reports. Authorities failed to notice this and began administering a paralytic and a drug to make Lockett’s heart stop. Those drugs went into Lockett’s system successfully. Though without the painkiller and sedative, Lockett would have been in agonizing pain.

Agree, that sounds awful and inhumane.

When a doctor botches a surgery resulting in severe and painful consequences for the patient (or even death), we do not ban all surgeries of that kind going forward. Now, if most doctors were making the same mistake with similar outcomes, we may then look at alternative methods.

Perhaps not the best analogy since one's goal is saving a life and the other ending it. But, I believe both should be as precise and painless as possible.

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Judging from the responders here in many threads, that vengeance and retribution is indeed the desired outcome.

For those responders, but how certain are you those responders are representative of the entire majority who support the death penalty?

For me, if it is humane and not anti-constitutional or whatever, and the majority supports it then the death penalty is not near the top of my list of immediate concerns for change. It seems to me a lot of the responders who are against it, are against it because an estimated four-to-eight percent of those on death row are thought to be innocent. This again--to me--is a "front-end" issue and holds little weight for me as to whether or not we should have the death penalty.

I would stand by a need for improvement on the front-end all day long.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[rehmwa 2]

PLFXpert

For those responders, but how certain are you those responders are representative of the entire majority who support the death penalty?

certainty isn't the issue for them. mischaracterization of a group's motiviation is easy. It's also intellectually lazy and a sad tactic.

too bad it's used so often by people that really are smarter than that in real life

they clearly hate puppies and minorities, else they'd do better

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Amazon 7]

rehmwa

***For those responders, but how certain are you those responders are representative of the entire majority who support the death penalty?

certainty isn't the issue for them. mischaracterization of a group's motiviation is easy. It's also intellectually lazy and a sad tactic.

too bad it's used so often by people that really are smarter than that in real life

they clearly hate puppies and minorities, else they'd do better

a Search finds interesting tidbits... and sometimes from surprising sources.

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Let it be said that I don't think much of the death penalty. There are all too many innocent people who die as the result of a flawed legal system.

OTOH, if you have someone dead to rights, perhaps it's not so bad.

And no, I don't care that he has a brain injury or a low IQ. My only regret is that he won't die a slow, painful death.

Emotion-driven? You betcha. But then again, that's what the death penalty is all about.

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I hope she suffers horribly before being sent to Hell. And some folks think we don't need the death penalty. She doesn't even have insanity as an excuse.

There are more...

[kallend 1,623]

rehmwa

***For those responders, but how certain are you those responders are representative of the entire majority who support the death penalty?

certainty isn't the issue for them. mischaracterization of a group's motiviation is easy. It's also intellectually lazy and a sad tactic.



It certainly isn't mischaracterizing skydivers who post on SC and support the death penalty. They have characterized themselves by what they have written.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

And I've been distressed by those members also that they don't understand what 'justice' is.

But the comment was how do you know "responders are representative of the entire majority" of those supportive of DP

You and Amazon reply "but,....but.....I have posts from these 3 guys......"

I can argue that everyone that is against the DP is clearly represented by the self hating liberal that will let their children die rather than defend them from a punk punching them to death on a freak out. That would also be an unfair misrepresentation.

You've read my posts, do I advocate ANY level of vengeance or emotion be factored in the execution of predators? Why do you insist on lumping me and people like me in with the "I want them to feel pain" crowd?

again - you're both being lazy and trying to elicit the emotional reaction - which is exactly what we want to avoid. I think better of you both.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[weekender 0]

"Evidence the fact of the tortured execution of the perp in Oklahoma."

you supplied the opinion of HIS lawyer and anti death penalty activist as evidence of torture.

according to the NYT, a very liberal paper, he sat up and said, "oh man". he was unconscious in a matter of a few minutes and died about 45 minutes later.

so using his crime as a reference for torture. he might have suffered some discomfort for 90 seconds before he became unconscious. his victim was anally raped, then shot with a shotgun and buried alive. IMO, he was not tortured in comparison to his victim.

what is humorous to me is that i am not even an advocate of the death penalty. i would be fine with life with no chance of parole. i just cannot relate to your belief that this was barbarous torture. it actually saddens me that you seem to have more sympathy for this man than his victims. i just cannot understand how you show so much animosity on this site for me and others while almost none towards this obviously horrible man. just weird.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[rehmwa 2]

weekender

he was not tortured in comparison to his victim....... it actually saddens me that you seem to have more sympathy for this man than his victims

I don't think the issue is whether 'his pain' is equal or not to his victims. The comparison of the two is completely moot to the discussion and I think this weakens your argument. I also think that any 'sympathy' in the matter between what is felt for the victims (as victims) can be completely separated for any concerns about a process that failed to execute correctly (I'm concerned about the process being humane, not the predator one way or the other).

Regardless of what the victims went through, that is not justification to have a sloppy process with mistakes that can be avoided.

I think your point that there is evidence that he experienced simple discomfort stands alone as a good argument that the mistakes in the execution were still clinical and humane, and can be corrected in the future in an effective way.

----Then it just comes down to which account do readers choose to believe---- (which is true, and which is hyperbole to press one agenda or the other)

Clearly, if DP is required, then doing it quickly, painlessly and without angst is the only way to administer it as a humane society. This is true regardless of the nature of the crime, the type of predator, or the experience of the victims or families.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[weekender 0]

rehmwa

***he was not tortured in comparison to his victim....... it actually saddens me that you seem to have more sympathy for this man than his victims

I don't think the issue is whether 'his pain' is equal or not to his victims. The comparison of the two is completely moot to the discussion and I think this weakens your argument. I also think that any 'sympathy' in the matter between what is felt for the victims (as victims) can be completely separated for any concerns about a process that failed to execute correctly (I'm concerned about the process being humane, not the predator one way or the other).

Regardless of what the victims went through, that is not justification to have a sloppy process with mistakes that can be avoided.

I think your point that there is evidence that he experienced simple discomfort stands alone as a good argument that the mistakes in the execution were still clinical and humane, and can be corrected in the future in an effective way.

----Then it just comes down to which account do readers choose to believe---- (which is true, and which is hyperbole to press one agenda or the other)

Clearly, if DP is required, then doing it quickly, painlessly and without angst is the only way to administer it as a humane society. This is true regardless of the nature of the crime, the type of predator, or the experience of the victims or families.

she is claiming torture. since that word is subjective, we need a reference point. i chose his victim. obviously, i did that to make a point. i want people to remember who truly suffered here. it was the women who was anally raped, shot and buried alive.

she seems to have more animosity for me and other posters than him. i think thats odd.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[kallend 1,623]

rehmwa

***he was not tortured in comparison to his victim....... it actually saddens me that you seem to have more sympathy for this man than his victims

I don't think the issue is whether 'his pain' is equal or not to his victims. The comparison of the two is completely moot to the discussion and I think this weakens your argument. I also think that any 'sympathy' in the matter between what is felt for the victims (as victims) can be completely separated for any concerns about a process that failed to execute correctly (I'm concerned about the process being humane, not the predator one way or the other).

Regardless of what the victims went through, that is not justification to have a sloppy process with mistakes that can be avoided.

I think your point that there is evidence that he experienced simple discomfort stands alone as a good argument that the mistakes in the execution were still clinical and humane, and can be corrected in the future in an effective way.

----Then it just comes down to which account do readers choose to believe---- (which is true, and which is hyperbole to press one agenda or the other)



If everything was hunky-dory why did the execution team close the curtains to prevent the witnesses from seeing what was going on? Seems like a classic COVER-UP to me.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Amazon 7]

weekender

******he was not tortured in comparison to his victim....... it actually saddens me that you seem to have more sympathy for this man than his victims

I don't think the issue is whether 'his pain' is equal or not to his victims. The comparison of the two is completely moot to the discussion and I think this weakens your argument. I also think that any 'sympathy' in the matter between what is felt for the victims (as victims) can be completely separated for any concerns about a process that failed to execute correctly (I'm concerned about the process being humane, not the predator one way or the other).

Regardless of what the victims went through, that is not justification to have a sloppy process with mistakes that can be avoided.

I think your point that there is evidence that he experienced simple discomfort stands alone as a good argument that the mistakes in the execution were still clinical and humane, and can be corrected in the future in an effective way.

----Then it just comes down to which account do readers choose to believe---- (which is true, and which is hyperbole to press one agenda or the other)

Clearly, if DP is required, then doing it quickly, painlessly and without angst is the only way to administer it as a humane society. This is true regardless of the nature of the crime, the type of predator, or the experience of the victims or families.

she is claiming torture. since that word is subjective, we need a reference point. i chose his victim. obviously, i did that to make a point. i want people to remember who truly suffered here. it was the women who was anally raped, shot and buried alive.

she seems to have more animosity for me and other posters than him. i think thats odd.

That sir.... is an exceedingly gross assumption

I do not think that the posters of SC should be locked up in the deepest hole for life where they could ever harm anyone... get the point?????

[airtwardo 6]

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It certainly isn't mischaracterizing skydivers who post on SC and support the death penalty. They have characterized themselves by what they have written.

No - You interpret what they've written through your 'unique' frame of personal reference and having not agreed with what your interpretation of what they said is...you file 'them' along with the other things your individual personality disdains.

Is it a mischaracterization to say that you consider everyone with an opinion which conflicts with your opinion, an uncouth ill educated vengeful caveman?

Of course it is...

Everyone has an opinion 'unique' unto himself, it's a personal belief that has been 'formulated' generally speaking, in the same way YOUR opinions have been ascertained -

Belittling someone for an opinion they hold is ludicrous because you have no real way of knowing how or why they believe what the do...by merely labeling them in a 'not as good as you' catagory, what you're in effect really doing is exemplifying the closed minded caveman mentality you accuse other of propagating.

That said ~ personally I like the death penalty, in MY case (despite what you may want to believe) it has nothing to do with eye for an eye vengeance.

It's a deterrent for some...argue with statistics all you want, but I know for a fact in certain facets of our society the killing of a LEO is consciously discussed and refraining from such killing is strongly encouraged because death upon a guilty finding is guaranteed.

One can not prove a negative - but I have no doubt there are a significant number of cops alive today because of the deterrent factor the death penalty holds.

Sure there are problems with it...as mentioned above, many are 'front end' problems. It's most certainly not administered in a fair & just fashion, age, color & sex are variables most often cited during discussion regarding the discrepancy of it's use - and there is no denying it's a glaring farce in those terms.

However, that doesn't take way IMO from the general concept that it IS an effective tool in the justice system.

The old Texas _Some people just need killin'_ statement was quoted sarcastically in a comment earlier in the thread...another attempt to characterize those 'right wing, conservative Christian dumbass Texans' - well OF those things, the only one that fits me is, I'm a Texan who does happen to believe 'some people just need killin'

In a 'perfect world' I agree, that would not be so - but I'm realistic enough to see we don't live in a magic bubble, that there ARE human beings on this planet that are dangerous and only live to prey on others.

People who don't value the lives of their victims, who knowingly and purposely commit horrible & heinous crimes against the society they inhabit - have (IMO) no logical reason to expect that society would allow them to inhabit any place at all within it.

It's not vengeance -

When someone knows quite possibly the penalty to pay for doing what they want to do is ultimate & final - yet they do said crime anyway...they then have made a choice, THEY deserve the death penalty because they put them self in a position of being penalized in that way.

'Society' doesn't choose to put a criminal to death, the criminal chooses to place a value on murder above the value they place on their own life...

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[billvon 2,400]

>she is claiming torture. since that word is subjective, we need a reference point.

No, we really don't. If this criminal was anally raped twice, shot twice, and buried alive twice before he committed this crime, it would not be OK to say "but by comparison his victim got off lightly so give him a break."

If the argument is "he must be removed from society permanently and capital punishment is the way to do that" fine, I think that's defensible. But the argument "well, if we cause him the same amount of pain that he caused - good, fuck him" doesn't work, IMO. That's an argument for revenge, and revenge is a poor driver for a justice system.

[weekender 0]

kallend

******he was not tortured in comparison to his victim....... it actually saddens me that you seem to have more sympathy for this man than his victims

I don't think the issue is whether 'his pain' is equal or not to his victims. The comparison of the two is completely moot to the discussion and I think this weakens your argument. I also think that any 'sympathy' in the matter between what is felt for the victims (as victims) can be completely separated for any concerns about a process that failed to execute correctly (I'm concerned about the process being humane, not the predator one way or the other).

Regardless of what the victims went through, that is not justification to have a sloppy process with mistakes that can be avoided.

I think your point that there is evidence that he experienced simple discomfort stands alone as a good argument that the mistakes in the execution were still clinical and humane, and can be corrected in the future in an effective way.

----Then it just comes down to which account do readers choose to believe---- (which is true, and which is hyperbole to press one agenda or the other)



If everything was hunky-dory why did the execution team close the curtains to prevent the witnesses from seeing what was going on? Seems like a classic COVER-UP to me.

they were killing a man, i didnt mean to imply it was hunky-dory. i dont know how to run an execution, so i can only speculate on why they pulled the curtain. i imagine, they wanted to investigate why it didnt go as planned and thought it might upset the visitors. similiar to Dr's pulling the curtain in the ER or a hospital room. sometimes its not for privacy of the patient but to protect others from seeing icky things.

i dont really care actually. i read the NYT article and do not think he was tortured. i DO think his victim, the one anally raped, shot and buried alive suffered a fate closer to torture, though. i suspect you dont really care about her. she doesnt help and is actually a hindrance to your political agenda.

you and the other poster would serve your cause better if you just ignored this thread and waited for a more sympathetic criminal to be executed. possibly one who didnt anally rape a women, shoot her and bury her alive. just my 2 cents.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[weekender 0]

billvon

>she is claiming torture. since that word is subjective, we need a reference point.

No, we really don't. If this criminal was anally raped twice, shot twice, and buried alive twice before he committed this crime, it would not be OK to say "but by comparison his victim got off lightly so give him a break."

If the argument is "he must be removed from society permanently and capital punishment is the way to do that" fine, I think that's defensible. But the argument "well, if we cause him the same amount of pain that he caused - good, fuck him" doesn't work, IMO. That's an argument for revenge, and revenge is a poor driver for a justice system.

im sorry but i disagree. torture is subjective. i consider visiting my wife's friends torture and she finds pleasure in it. silly example but makes my point.

some here are against the death penalty and are trying to use this execution to help their cause. i dont think this execution was torture and i dont think its a good case against capital punishment.

im not arguing for revenge or even the death penalty. i think its silly and insensitive to imply this criminal was tortured and is an example of why we should end capital punishment.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[billvon 2,400]

>i consider visiting my wife's friends torture and she finds pleasure in it. silly
>example but makes my point.

?? Are you seriously comparing the two situations as how you define torture? Hopefully that's a joke.

>some here are against the death penalty and are trying to use this execution to
>help their cause.

Yes, they are. And I think "the State is not competent to execute people" is actually a good argument against capital punishment. Of course, another good solution is to get more competent at it.

[rehmwa 2]

weekender

she is claiming torture. since that word is subjective, we need a reference point. i chose his victim. obviously, i did that to make a point. i want people to remember who truly suffered here. it was the women who was anally raped, shot and buried alive.

You've made that clear -

my point is that how we decide to execute a predator is on line here. and that is unrelated to the victim's experiences

talking about the crime and victim and generating sympathy for the victim is what's needed during the court case - it's what determined the verdict and the penalty. That part is over. he's guilty, DP was the penalty.

Now, completing the task of the execution - that has nothing to do with the case facts - at this point, the facts of the victim's treatment really is a tangent to this specific argument. Continually bringing up those facts (letting sophomoric tangents by other posters bait you into that) lessons the argument and gives weight to their counter position that we are less concerned about administering justice and more concerned about 'getting even'. You don't counter a stupid, emotional, off topic, mischaracterization, with a more poignant off topic emotional argument.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

kallend

If everything was hunky-dory why did the execution team close the curtains to prevent the witnesses from seeing what was going on? Seems like a classic COVER-UP to me.

weak, John. really weak. Not worthy of a response.

oh no, someone closed a CURTAIN....oh my god.....next thing you know, college professors will grade papers in private instead of in the hallway with their students watching and arguing

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

weekender

some here are against the death penalty and are trying to use this execution to help their cause. i dont think this execution was torture and i dont think its a good case against capital punishment.

there, that's a cogent argue that also stays on topic

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

billvon

I think "the State is not competent to execute people" is actually a good argument against capital punishment. Of course, another good solution is to get more competent at it.

amazing how pages of thread posts get all misrouted when the argument can be summed up in just a single sentence

people don't think in straight lines - this thread is torture

the inference that this example rises to the level of "not competent" is in question. (not perfect, does not equal, incompetent, so best to avoid those pointless arguments)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Amazon 7]

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'Society' doesn't choose to put a criminal to death, the criminal chooses to place a value on murder above the value they place on their own life...

The problem Twardo is that we as a people are being viewed by most of the civilized world as being just as barbaric as some of the worst regimes on this planet. All of the western democracies got rid of the DP long ago.

Those societies have chosen to isolate the worst of the worst from the rest of civilized society without the need to resort to bronze age solutions. They seem to be a tad more "enlightened" than most of this society.
I have several reason for no longer supporting the beliefs of my youth. On is I do not trust our system to get it right even most of the time when it comes to our "injustice system". Sorry but financial and political rewards await far too many people in the system to make it truly just.

It has been proven that far too many people have been swept into that system by a rush to judgment and the manipulation of "Evidence" to achieve the desired outcome of putting the wrong person behind bars because a persecutor or police chief is too lazy and they wish to clear a case.

Do you really trust your government to kill your fellow citizens( and the first one to bring up the asinine drone bullshit in this context deserves a swift kick in that buttocks) Star Fruit and Watermelons are NOT a comparison.

The Bible Belt does seem to forget about what Christ actually taught... how do you think he feels about the DP and about so many in our society usurping his fathers role of judge??

Me, as a member of society, do not want fellow citizens being killed in my name by my local and state government...it is WRONG and I do not want to be an accomplice to murder.

[rehmwa 2]

Amazon

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'Society' doesn't choose to put a criminal to death, the criminal chooses to place a value on murder above the value they place on their own life...

The problem Twardo is that we as a people are being viewed by most of the civilized world as being just as barbaric as some of the worst regimes on this planet. All of the western democracies got rid of the DP long ago.

Neither is "oh no, our IMAGE is more important than doing the right thing for society" a good argument either. I have a difficult time with the concept and hero worship of many other extremely self righteous and snotty, and pot/kettle type other cultures have in the eyes of some of our populace only - especially when viewing the spectatular failure of many of the those nations... However, as a nation, we are designed to have areas of experiment and we are supposed to learn from the best examples.....so I see this as the intent of the lead in.


I appreciate the next three paragraphs as well thought out debate.

I acknowledge your pointless last two paragraphs to be a necessity for you to vent out issues from your youth and accept them as a means to read those three good paragraphs.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[weekender 0]

rehmwa

*** some here are against the death penalty and are trying to use this execution to help their cause. i dont think this execution was torture and i dont think its a good case against capital punishment.

there, that's a cogent argue that also stays on topic

your making me laugh. your previous post was valid but sort of condescending as is this one. i believe its called a "complesult." you are complementing my point but also insulting my ability to make one.

good posts and definitely made me smile. even though its at my expense.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[Amazon 7]

rehmwa

***

Quote

'Society' doesn't choose to put a criminal to death, the criminal chooses to place a value on murder above the value they place on their own life...

The problem Twardo is that we as a people are being viewed by most of the civilized world as being just as barbaric as some of the worst regimes on this planet. All of the western democracies got rid of the DP long ago.

Neither is "oh no, our IMAGE is more important than doing the right thing for society" a good argument either. I have a difficult time with the concept and hero worship of many other extremely self righteous and snotty, and pot/kettle type other cultures have in the eyes of some of our populace only - especially when viewing the spectatular failure of many of the those nations... However, as a nation, we are designed to have areas of experiment and we are supposed to learn from the best examples.....so I see this as the intent of the lead in.


I appreciate the next three paragraphs as well thought out debate.

I acknowledge your pointless last two paragraphs to be a necessity for you to vent out issues from your youth and accept them as a means to read those three good paragraphs.

It is well to remember that the American people are composed of homo sapiens from every country, race and religion on the planet and are but a small percentage of the whole billions of our fellow human beings.
It is good to be a productive member of that Society of Mankind who has learned well the lessons of being able to play well with others rather than being the pariah that requires isolation.

[rehmwa 2]

weekender

****** some here are against the death penalty and are trying to use this execution to help their cause. i dont think this execution was torture and i dont think its a good case against capital punishment.

there, that's a cogent argue that also stays on topic

your making me laugh. your previous post was valid but sort of condescending as is this one. i believe its called a "complesult." you are complementing my point but also insulting my ability to make one.

good posts and definitely made me smile. even though its at my expense.

not my intent - I just see you giving them ammo by letting them divert you. sorry about that

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants