Ohio death penalty: untested drugs

[PiLFy 0]

"The only thing that proves is your attention span."

Right back atchya, SkyDud... I watched the whole vid out of curiosity a while later, & saw nothing to change my opinion of his bias, or yours.

[FreefallingCari 0]

"Our bodies are wired to respond to hypercarbia by increasing the breathing rate and triggering other muscle responses in an effort to correct the situation, resulting in panic and distress (our suffocation response)."

Yes, they are. HOWEVER, strong narcotic pain medications like Morphine or Dilaudid are effective at stopping that "air hunger" sensation and it's movement related effects on the body. It does not stop the condition, but it stops the distress sensation.

As a Nurse who has worked Hospice, I have seen countless dying people made a LOT more comfortable with potent doses of narcotics.

As an FYI to add to this conversation.... We COULD give these people potent doses of narcotics to prevent the distress of hypoxia.

Skydiver Survivor; Battling Breast Cancer one jump at a time. DX June 19th 2014
I have been jumping since October 5th 2013.
https://pinkribbonskydiver.wordpress.com/

[skydiver30960 0]

WRT my mentioning Prozac: SHIT! You're right. I was thinking about Xanax. My bad.

WRT swilson's point about hypoxia not causing tachypnea and distress: this is why I mentioned hypercarbia first. But, as you get more and more hypoxic and your cells switch to anaerobic metabolism, you'll become more and more acidotic, which in turn gets buffered into more CO2 which your body will try to blow off through tachypnea, no?

But you're right that at least in the beginning it's all about CO2, and this does highlight a valid difference between your example of N2 by NRB and the Andromeda Strain monkey which was treated with pure CO2.

FURTHER EDIT: The more I think about this, the more I'm swayed to your line of thought. You're basically using the nitrogen to simulate an immediate increase in altitude, to a point where the partial pressure of oxygen is zero. Everything I say about the body trying to compensate for the increasing acidosis holds true, but by then the victim/condemned is going to be completely unconscious, so there wouldn't be any awareness or distress. Hmmmm... OK, so then the question becomes: if it's this easy, why isn't it done this way all the time?


Elvisio "still pissed at myself about the Prozac thing" Rodriguez

[skydiver30960 0]

For me, I guess the best part of this whole conversation is the article's implication that dilaudid and versed are "untested" death penalty drugs.

Anyone in emergency healthcare or EMS can tell you DOZENS of stories of addicts who have done a very good job at proving their effectiveness!

Elvisio "push the Narcan VERY slowly, or be as far to the front of the ambulance as humanly possible" Rodriguez

[FreefallingCari 0]

Sorry about the Prozac thing, I was being facetiously picky.

You are 100% correct.. We know these drugs can cause a fairly quick death, and many OD victims do not present in a state of specific distress.

Skydiver Survivor; Battling Breast Cancer one jump at a time. DX June 19th 2014
I have been jumping since October 5th 2013.
https://pinkribbonskydiver.wordpress.com/

[kelpdiver 2]

swilson

I have been hypoxic on a 23k foot skydive, and there was no distress. If you watch Skyrad's link from 32 minutes on (or any other hypobaric chamber test), there is no distress.

At 42 minutes in Skyrad's link, there was a test with pigs, comparing CO2 to nitrogen. CO2, predictably, caused distress, while nitrogen did not.

Pigs don't know they're dying, and on your 23k jump, you knew that once you're out the door, it's about 45 seconds till thicker air. A DP recipient knows it's going to get worse. Same with CO poisoning.

(I have done one 24k jump myself and it is remarkable how woozy you get once you take off the mask).

I was hoping we'd have more legal participation in this thread. My presumption is that many simple drug cocktails aren't in the mix because of a risk of not killing, but merely lobotimizing the convict. And then being in a situation where you can't execute a vegetable.
I'm not going to discount the nitrogen proposal outright, but these two test examples are incomplete.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

kelpdiver

...I was hoping we'd have more legal participation in this thread. My presumption is that many simple drug cocktails aren't in the mix because of a risk of not killing, but merely lobotimizing the convict...

The actual risk, or the lack of proof that the risk isn't there?

Kind of like the approval process for airplane parts. It isn't that other stuff can't or won't work as well, it's that the other stuff hasn't gone through a lengthy, complicated and expensive approval process.

Heroin, for example, would work pretty well. The purity would be controlled, and a lethal dose would be pretty simple to figure out. (easiest way - LD50 and then quadruple it).

Quick, painless. One shot, unconscious in a few seconds and dead in a minute or two.

But it hasn't been tested or approved. So it won't happen.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[kelpdiver 2]

wolfriverjoe

***...I was hoping we'd have more legal participation in this thread. My presumption is that many simple drug cocktails aren't in the mix because of a risk of not killing, but merely lobotimizing the convict...

The actual risk, or the lack of proof that the risk isn't there?


either. I believe the answer to why aren't there hundreds of ways we can execute this people (again, ignoring the debate over should we) is contained within this question, complicated by the fact that a number of people and drug makers refuse to participate.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

kelpdiver

******...I was hoping we'd have more legal participation in this thread. My presumption is that many simple drug cocktails aren't in the mix because of a risk of not killing, but merely lobotimizing the convict...

The actual risk, or the lack of proof that the risk isn't there?


either. I believe the answer to why aren't there hundreds of ways we can execute this people (again, ignoring the debate over should we) is contained within this question, complicated by the fact that a number of people and drug makers refuse to participate.

Agreed.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[PiLFy 0]

Big Pharm kills people every day. They do it in the name of profits. I think you give them far too much moral superiority.

Any drug from those categories can be substituted. Some might work a little better, or be cheaper, but they'll all get the job done.

It's not drug efficacy. It's not the higher ethical constraints of an industry that lets many thousands of AIDS patients, for example, die to protect their profit margins within the Western world. They'd back-door in whatever drugs the different States wanted. No. It's the bureaucratic BS. The DP is a hot potato, politically. Lots of others agree w/those here who want a pain-free death to make them feel superior to the trash. Maybe they tell themselves the white lie of not feeling any sense of vengeance? Sorry, separate debate... Under the table deals w/certain pharmaceutical companies? Unwillingness of the Pols to address the issue in any way, especially in an election year? My money is on those types of reasons. The others simply don't make sense.

Sorry if that rambles a bit. Running on very little sleep, here.

[turtlespeed 212]

PiLFy

Big Pharm kills people every day. They do it in the name of profits. I think you give them far too much moral superiority.

Any drug from those categories can be substituted. Some might work a little better, or be cheaper, but they'll all get the job done.

It's not drug efficacy. It's not the higher ethical constraints of an industry that lets many thousands of AIDS patients, for example, die to protect their profit margins within the Western world. They'd back-door in whatever drugs the different States wanted. No. It's the bureaucratic BS. The DP is a hot potato, politically. Lots of others agree w/those here who want a pain-free death to make them feel superior to the trash. Maybe they tell themselves the white lie of not feeling any sense of vengeance? Sorry, separate debate... Under the table deals w/certain pharmaceutical companies? Unwillingness of the Pols to address the issue in any way, especially in an election year? My money is on those types of reasons. The others simply don't make sense.

Sorry if that rambles a bit. Running on very little sleep, here.

I don't think any human anywhere, ever should be killed by any other human, ever.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[PiLFy 0]

"I don't think any human anywhere, ever should be killed by any other human, ever."

OK, start a thread about that. This one is just on the drug question the OP asked.

[turtlespeed 212]

PiLFy

"I don't think any human anywhere, ever should be killed by any other human, ever."

OK, start a thread about that. This one is just on the drug question the OP asked.

I responded to a different subject line . . . please keep up.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[PiLFy 0]

turtlespeed

***
"I don't think any human anywhere, ever should be killed by any other human, ever."

OK, start a thread about that. This one is just on the drug question the OP asked.

I responded to a different subject line . . . please keep up.
I don't follow. You mean my statement about Big Pharm?

[turtlespeed 212]

PiLFy

******
"I don't think any human anywhere, ever should be killed by any other human, ever."

OK, start a thread about that. This one is just on the drug question the OP asked.

I responded to a different subject line . . . please keep up.
I don't follow. You mean my statement about Big Pharm?

Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't it big pharm that supplies the DP drugs?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Andy9o8 0]

turtlespeed

*********
"I don't think any human anywhere, ever should be killed by any other human, ever."

OK, start a thread about that. This one is just on the drug question the OP asked.

I responded to a different subject line . . . please keep up.
I don't follow. You mean my statement about Big Pharm?

Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't it big pharm that supplies the DP drugs?

Increasingly, major pharmaceutical companies are forbidding the use of their products for capital punishment; so many states are now turning to lightly-regulated "compounding pharmacies" to prepare DP drugs.

[PiLFy 0]

W/some of things Big Pharm does, moral highground is unattainable for them. The market for DP drugs is very small, though. Perhaps they feel it's not worth the risk for something so high profile?

There are mickey mouse pharm operations in all corners of the globe. Plenty of places to get the required drugs...

[kelpdiver 2]

PiLFy

Big Pharm kills people every day. They do it in the name of profits. I think you give them far too much moral superiority.

I wasn't aware that I made any statement at all about Big Pharm here. You may have imagined this.

I've been seeking legal input here, not angry rants about drug makers, which is really not relevant to this discussion.

[PiLFy 0]

kelpdiver

***Big Pharm kills people every day. They do it in the name of profits. I think you give them far too much moral superiority.

I wasn't aware that I made any statement at all about Big Pharm here. You may have imagined this.

I've been seeking legal input here, not angry rants about drug makers, which is really not relevant to this discussion.

You cherry-picked the wrong quote to take a jab at me. This is the quote that directly answered your question:

"Any drug from those categories can be substituted. Some might work a little better, or be cheaper, but they'll all get the job done.

It's not drug efficacy."

My comments on Big Pharm are not rants. I'm simply stating facts to support my opinion. Ultimately, I've been answering the OP's query, not yours.

[kelpdiver 2]

PiLFy

******Big Pharm kills people every day. They do it in the name of profits. I think you give them far too much moral superiority.

I wasn't aware that I made any statement at all about Big Pharm here. You may have imagined this.


You cherry-picked the wrong quote to take a jab at me. This is the quote that directly answered your question:

"Any drug from those categories can be substituted. Some might work a little better, or be cheaper, but they'll all get the job done.

It's not drug efficacy."

My comments on Big Pharm are not rants. I'm simply stating facts to support my opinion. Ultimately, I've been answering the OP's query, not yours.

If you reply to me, and say that I gave someone moral superiority, it's hardly a stretch to believe you were in fact talking to me.

[PiLFy 0]

kelpdiver

*********Big Pharm kills people every day. They do it in the name of profits. I think you give them far too much moral superiority.

I wasn't aware that I made any statement at all about Big Pharm here. You may have imagined this.


You cherry-picked the wrong quote to take a jab at me. This is the quote that directly answered your question:

"Any drug from those categories can be substituted. Some might work a little better, or be cheaper, but they'll all get the job done.

It's not drug efficacy."

My comments on Big Pharm are not rants. I'm simply stating facts to support my opinion. Ultimately, I've been answering the OP's query, not yours.

If you reply to me, and say that I gave someone moral superiority, it's hardly a stretch to believe you were in fact talking to me.

Here's your moral high ground: "...complicated by the fact that a number of people and drug makers refuse to participate."

Really don't care enough to argue about it. Enjoy your Kelp...

[kelpdiver 2]

PiLFy

Here's your moral high ground: "...complicated by the fact that a number of people and drug makers refuse to participate."

Really don't care enough to argue about it. Enjoy your Kelp...

bullshit, you've been nothing but argumentative in this thread.

You confuse a moral judgement with a simple statement of fact. Hard to help you there.

Many drug makers will not sell product that will be used for executions. Many doctors, if not most, would have objections to doing to sort of research necessary to test drugs for lethal injection. And many people, both voters and legislators, oppose the principle of an eye for an eye.

Whether you think they are wrong or sanctimonious is irrelevant - the fact that they will not participate is a technical barrier.

[Bolas 5]

Simple. Allow death row inmates to choose to be test subjects for new execution techniques.

"If it doesn't work, you're free to go..."

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[PiLFy 0]

kelpdiver

***
Here's your moral high ground: "...complicated by the fact that a number of people and drug makers refuse to participate."

Really don't care enough to argue about it. Enjoy your Kelp...

bullshit, you've been nothing but argumentative in this thread.

You confuse a moral judgement with a simple statement of fact. Hard to help you there.

Many drug makers will not sell product that will be used for executions. Many doctors, if not most, would have objections to doing to sort of research necessary to test drugs for lethal injection. And many people, both voters and legislators, oppose the principle of an eye for an eye.

Whether you think they are wrong or sanctimonious is irrelevant - the fact that they will not participate is a technical barrier.

Jeebus... What, are you smoking that Kelp?? I have not been argumentative. I simply don't agree w/you. The Drugs don't need to be tested anymore than they already are. Lethal doses are determined before the Drugs are brought to market. Some of the larger Pharm companies distance themselves from the DP? OK. There are plenty of smaller Drug manufacturers in the lesser parts of the world who won't have those qualms. I addressed this in a prior reply. Many People oppose the DP? OK. Many People don't, too. This thread isn't about that. It's not about you catching an attitude w/me, either. Go fight w/someone else...

[kelpdiver 2]

PiLFy

I have not been argumentative. I simply don't agree w/you.

Hilarious stuff. You performing all week?