Iran Nuclear Deal

[Andy9o8 0]

Gravitymaster

The purpose of this "Deal" is to blow all the news about Obamacare off the front
page.

It's not the only purpose, but that's in the Top 5 on the Hit Parade, and none of the other 4 are any better.

[turtlespeed 212]

Andy9o8

***The purpose of this "Deal" is to blow all the news about Obamacare off the front
page.

It's not the only purpose, but that's in the Top 5 on the Hit Parade, and none of the other 4 are any better.

You expect this admin to produce something GOOD?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[kelpdiver 2]

grue

Just out of curiosity, how would you suggest Iran power their country and defend themselves against the ever-present threat of Israeli and American aggression?

So here you (and Darius later) openly acknowledge that Iran is full of shit with this deal, that their intent remains to develop nuclear weapons. You're only defending that it is their right to do so. So what is clear is that we can't take anything that Iran says or promises to do at face value. Their history doesn't allow for faith or trust.

I find it highly likely that they will go on to violate the second portion of the NPT - where they give nations like Syria, or nationless bodies like Hezbollah the same nuclear capabilities. Without adequate monitors, it may not be possible to tie nuclear ordinance back to the source of origin.

As for powering their country - aren't they the 4th largest oil nation on the planet?

[mrubin 0]

Darius11

Also disgusted with Israel and how they are always anti peace, but then again nothing new from them.

Israel has every right to be upset about this. For years, Iran has been talking about wiping Israel off the map. Would you be comfortable if a country that has repeatedly called for your destruction had the ability to carry it out?

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery

[lawrocket 3]

I also have some reservations. Other countries have these weapons. Iran has, I think, some good reason for wondering why the world is against it doing what Israel, France, Russia, the US, etc. are doing. Contrary to North Korea - who have said all along their nuclear program is for weapons - the Iranians have paid lip service to peaceful purpose.

I don't think this can be reconciled. People with an active nuke problem don't want others obtaining an active nuke program. Meanwhile, those without it want it and I think have a legitimate complaint. I think grue and darius bring up these points. It's a matter of perspective.

I don't like the Iranian government a bit. My feelings are entirely different for the people of Iran.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Darius11 12]

mrubin

***Also disgusted with Israel and how they are always anti peace, but then again nothing new from them.

Israel has every right to be upset about this. For years, Iran has been talking about wiping Israel off the map. Would you be comfortable if a country that has repeatedly called for your destruction had the ability to carry it out?


Israel doesn’t have the right to speak as they have never signed a nuclear treaty and poses nuclear weapons.
They also have violated more UN resolutions then most countries in the region.

So I am not hear to say who can worry about what you can worry about unicorns if you wish, however I can point out the obvious hypocrisy which exist any time Israel express an opinion and point out why it is ridiculous for them to even think they should be allowed to talk.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[mrubin 0]

Darius11

I can point out the obvious hypocrisy which exist any time Israel express an opinion and point out why it is ridiculous for them to even think they should be allowed to talk.

Please enlighten me with examples of this hypocrisy.

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery

[Darius11 12]

Quote

So here you (and Darius later) openly acknowledge that Iran is full of shit

That statement is full of shit.

What i said is they have the right to have nuclear weapons.
I think anyone who is not confused by nationalism, their religions affiliations, can logically see how ridiculous it is for someone who has thousands of something to tell others there not allowed.

Oh and anytime we get mad we talk about using this thing that we have to wipe you and your people off the map.

Hypocrisy is so obvious.

Quote

As for powering their country - aren't they the 4th largest oil nation on the planet?

God that's a dim statement, for sovereignty!!

Do you know how much oil the US has? How much gas?
Why do we even try to learn any thing or even expand our technology?
Because it will not last long and it will be finished, plus self reliance is something Iran has always wanted and the west hates.

The west wants "Arab like nations" who gives up oil and you give them weapons, and technologies that the west can decide to cut off at any time. After the Iran and Iraq war Iran learned it needs to be self reliant or as self reliant as it can be.

I think even you can appreciate why a country would want to explore many options and soldifie the future of their people.

We would do the same.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

One Isreal poses nuclear weapons
Two, they have not signed a nuclear treaty
Tree, They have violated more UN resolutions then Iraq
Four, they are the country that has had preemptive attacks as a part of their standard MO
Five, They have an apartheid


I can keep going, and going.

The only people who think Israelis are innocent are uneducated Americans and Jews whos sense of morality is much smaller then the sense of camaraderie they feel to their tribe.

Your talking about over 60 years of abuse, that the world knows but you cant mention in the US because it is Antisemitism even if it is factual.


However the only two you need to know for this argument is that they have Nucks and have signed no treaty. So how can they even say anything???? Why should anyone listen?

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[lawrocket 3]

[Quote]any time Israel express an opinion and point out why it is ridiculous for them to even think they should be allowed to talk.

This is the same thing on the other side. There are people who think that Iran should not be allowed to possess nuclear technologies. It requires a value judgment and inherently belittles.

Opining that Israel should not be allowed to talk does the same damned thing. It belittles Israel and says that their concerns, regarddless of validity, should not be heard.

Of course, this is why the problems won't be fixed for the foreseeable future. Neither side thinks the other is worthy of a voice.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[mrubin 0]

Darius11

One Isreal poses nuclear weapons

This has not been proven. I'm not saying that they don't, because they most likely do, but there is no confirmation that this is the case. If you can show me some information proving otherwise, I would be very interested to see it.

Quote

Two, they have not signed a nuclear treaty

Signing a treaty would be saying that they have nuclear weapons when they will neither confirm nor deny it. If it comes to it, I hope you are this strongly opinionated about Iran signing a nuclear treaty.

Quote

Tree, They have violated more UN resolutions then Iraq

I don't have all the information about this so I won't make an uninformed comment.

Quote

Four, they are the country that has had preemptive attacks as a part of their standard MO

Most of Israel's engagements have been in response to being attacked. They have made pre-emptive attacks before, but its not normally the case.

Quote

Five, They have an apartheid

This is opening up a different discussion that would not be relevant to the topic of this thread, so I will leave it for another time.

Quote

The only people who think Israelis are innocent are uneducated Americans and Jews whos sense of morality is much smaller then the sense of camaraderie they feel to their tribe.

I am an educated American Jew who supports Israel. I don't support everything that they do, but I feel very strongly about their right to defend their existance.

Quote

However the only two you need to know for this argument is that they have Nucks and have signed no treaty.

Nucks? Are you trying to say that the Israelis have Canadians without signing a treaty?

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery

[grue 1]

kelpdiver

***Just out of curiosity, how would you suggest Iran power their country and defend themselves against the ever-present threat of Israeli and American aggression?

So here you (and Darius later) openly acknowledge that Iran is full of shit with this deal, that their intent remains to develop nuclear weapons. You're only defending that it is their right to do so. So what is clear is that we can't take anything that Iran says or promises to do at face value. Their history doesn't allow for faith or trust.

I find it highly likely that they will go on to violate the second portion of the NPT - where they give nations like Syria, or nationless bodies like Hezbollah the same nuclear capabilities. Without adequate monitors, it may not be possible to tie nuclear ordinance back to the source of origin.

As for powering their country - aren't they the 4th largest oil nation on the planet?

Don't put words into my mouth. I never said that's their intent, because I'm not the sort of asshole who claims to know things that I'm not privy to. Is it possible? Sure, but it's hard to believe that we didn't give nukes to Israel, and I think that's just as dangerous.

As for power vs oil… well, sure, they could be the same sort of fucking idiots who run our country and not plan for the future…

cavete terrae.

[grue 1]

mrubin

***Also disgusted with Israel and how they are always anti peace, but then again nothing new from them.

Israel has every right to be upset about this. For years, Iran has been talking about wiping Israel off the map. Would you be comfortable if a country that has repeatedly called for your destruction had the ability to carry it out?

It's been REPEATEDLY shown that was a mistranslation.

cavete terrae.

[grue 1]

mrubin

I am an educated American Jew who supports Israel. I don't support everything that they do, but I feel very strongly about their right to defend their existance.

On the other side of the coin, I'm an American who was raised Jewish that feels this whole situation could have been avoided if it wasn't decided that displacing one group of people to give a different group of people a place to stay based on some bullshit book was a reasonable idea. There were plenty of places to establish a "jewish state" (in itself a foolish idea), and they picked a stupid one that anyone with an ounce of grey matter would have known would cause a shitstorm.

cavete terrae.

[kelpdiver 2]

mrubin

***One Isreal poses nuclear weapons

This has not been proven. I'm not saying that they don't, because they most likely do, but there is no confirmation that this is the case. If you can show me some information proving otherwise, I would be very interested to see it.


the phrase 'plausible deniability' doesn't really have a place here. Israel has had nukes since before the Yom Kippur War. Debating this reality is pointless.

Quote

***Two, they have not signed a nuclear treaty

Signing a treaty would be saying that they have nuclear weapons when they will neither confirm nor deny it. If it comes to it, I hope you are this strongly opinionated about Iran signing a nuclear treaty.


You don't have to have nukes to sign the NPT. But being a signee to it does pledge to adhere to its restrictions. Iran did sign this, though some here think that shouldn't count.

Quote

***Tree, They have violated more UN resolutions then Iraq

I don't have all the information about this so I won't make an uninformed comment.


From a simple count the resolution perspective, it would be factually correct, though at the same time highly misleading. How many resolutions were lodged against Serbia or Rwanda for genocide? Or against the US or USSR? The passing of resolutions is a political exercise, and there are far more Arab and Muslim nations then there are Jewish ones.

Quote

***Four, they are the country that has had preemptive attacks as a part of their standard MO

Most of Israel's engagements have been in response to being attacked. They have made pre-emptive attacks before, but its not normally the case.


Indeed, it takes serious chutzpah to tarnish Israel with this label. The only reason they haven't been attacked first by a nation since 1973 is because of those nuclear bombs. Yet they have been attacked on daily occurrences since, just by Iran's (and Iraq's and others).

It is true that they struck out at Iraq to destroy a nuclear reactor, and much more recently against Syria who was developing a secret program in violation of the NPT.

[kelpdiver 2]

Darius11

Quote

So here you (and Darius later) openly acknowledge that Iran is full of shit

That statement is full of shit.

What i said is they have the right to have nuclear weapons.

It's tacky, not to mention obvious, to truncate someone's posting and then attack the straw man. I said Iran is full of shit on this deal, and you support that duplicity.

[kelpdiver 2]

grue

It's been REPEATEDLY shown that was a mistranslation.

So what was the mistranslation around the Holocaust Denial Conference, or Ahmandinejad's frequent remarks on the subject?

Gotta respect a convention that invites David Duke to come all the way over to Tehran!

[grue 1]

kelpdiver

***
It's been REPEATEDLY shown that was a mistranslation.

So what was the mistranslation around the Holocaust Denial Conference, or Ahmandinejad's frequent remarks on the subject?

Gotta respect a convention that invites David Duke to come all the way over to Tehran!

I'm not for a moment saying their government doesn't have some douchebaggery going, but the "wiped off the map" thing that gets bandied about is bullshit.

cavete terrae.

[mrubin 0]

grue

On the other side of the coin, I'm an American who was raised Jewish that feels this whole situation could have been avoided if it wasn't decided that displacing one group of people to give a different group of people a place to stay based on some bullshit book was a reasonable idea. There were plenty of places to establish a "jewish state" (in itself a foolish idea), and they picked a stupid one that anyone with an ounce of grey matter would have known would cause a shitstorm.

Maybe the whole situation could have been avoided, but the British were willing to give up the land to create the state of Israel. I don't understand why you say the idea of a Jewish state is foolish. There are plenty of Arab nations. Most western countries would call themselves Christian nations. So why can't Jews have a single state that's smaller than New Jersey? Or are you against all religious states, in which case I completely understand your argument.

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery

[kelpdiver 2]

grue

Don't put words into my mouth. I never said that's their intent, because I'm not the sort of asshole who claims to know things that I'm not privy to. Is it possible? Sure, but it's hard to believe that we didn't give nukes to Israel, and I think that's just as dangerous.

You probably need to be looking at the French for the bulk of the proliferation issues wrt Israel. There certainly were US spies and the debated MUF incident in 1965, but that differs from government policy, and in any event the NPT came along well after in 1970.

[lawrocket 3]

[Reply]whos sense of morality is much smaller then the sense of camaraderie they feel to their tribe

[grue 1]

mrubin

Or are you against all religious states, in which case I completely understand your argument.

This.

Plus, let's face it, setting up a Jewish state in the middle of the Arab world is like me setting up White Man Paradise in the middle of Somalia. Sort of calling attention to yourself that you might not want, no?

cavete terrae.

[grue 1]

kelpdiver

***
Don't put words into my mouth. I never said that's their intent, because I'm not the sort of asshole who claims to know things that I'm not privy to. Is it possible? Sure, but it's hard to believe that we didn't give nukes to Israel, and I think that's just as dangerous.

You probably need to be looking at the French for the bulk of the proliferation issues wrt Israel. There certainly were US spies and the debated MUF incident in 1965, but that differs from government policy, and in any event the NPT came along well after in 1970.

Fair

cavete terrae.

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

I'm an American who was raised Jewish

Funny, you don't look grueish.

[champu 1]

Andy9o8

Quote

I'm an American who was raised Jewish

Funny, you don't look grueish.

Oh great, that's all we needed...