skypuppy 1 #76 September 25, 2013 SkyDekkerNow, this is according to the Daily Mail. Do you normally believe everything they report? If not, do you have any other sources? Did he stop the mass shooting? He got about a hundred innocent people in over 10 sortees into the mall, out the mall alive who may not have gotten out unscathed otherwise. If we're supposing, I'm thinking (and this is ONLY my supposition) that saving the lives of the hostages inside was a lower priority to the kenyan military that went in then getting the bad guys. so this guy getting 100 people out before the big show may have had a huge impact on their lives.If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,150 #77 September 25, 2013 Quoteso this guy getting 100 people out before the big show may have had a huge impact on their lives. And if that is what happened, that is absolutely true. Not up to debate. Nor is it really what is being debated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #78 September 25, 2013 SkyDekkerQuoteThe 'average' concealed carrier in the states quite possibly also has or had military or police training. Many on here like to say the 'average' holder is a bum who got his licence out of a crackerjack box (I'm being facetious here). The truth is probably in the middle. ***But while your average gangbanger probably doesn't have much training, he also probably doesn't have a permit, because he has his gun 'illegally'. So forcing in new laws for concealed carry won't effect your average gangbanger... No law is going to stop your average gangbanger. If you are creating laws for gangbangers, you are indeed looking at things the wrong way. Since most if not all politicians are indeed not making laws for gangbangers, it is also a bit of a strawman. Lawmakers are trying to limit the rights of law-abiding citizens. That is not right when it is generally law-breakers who are at fault. There are laws on the books to stop felons from applying to buy guns - but very few get prosecuted even when caught. Prosecuting these people and having minimum sentences when convicted would make far more sense than making new laws to disallow law-abiding citizens from buying guns.If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,672 #79 September 25, 2013 Well, YOU may equate killing someone with grafitti artistry, but most normal people wouldn't.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #80 September 25, 2013 SkyDekkerQuoteThe 'average' concealed carrier in the states quite possibly also has or had military or police training. Many on here like to say the 'average' holder is a bum who got his licence out of a crackerjack box (I'm being facetious here). The truth is probably in the middle. Fair enough. In my experience, with people who have a CHL, there are a variety of reasons they got it in the first place. The ones who got it so that they could carry a firearm for self defense, are the ones who are more likely to actually carry their weapon on a daily basis. They are also the ones who are more likely to seek advanced training in the use of their weapon. I don't know where in the spectrum between advanced tactical super-proficient and bum with a CHL the "average" person lies. But if you're talking about someone who carries their weapon on a daily basis, It's a good bet that the data point in question is closer to the proficient than it is the bum.-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,150 #81 September 25, 2013 skypuppy***QuoteThe 'average' concealed carrier in the states quite possibly also has or had military or police training. Many on here like to say the 'average' holder is a bum who got his licence out of a crackerjack box (I'm being facetious here). The truth is probably in the middle. ***But while your average gangbanger probably doesn't have much training, he also probably doesn't have a permit, because he has his gun 'illegally'. So forcing in new laws for concealed carry won't effect your average gangbanger... No law is going to stop your average gangbanger. If you are creating laws for gangbangers, you are indeed looking at things the wrong way. Since most if not all politicians are indeed not making laws for gangbangers, it is also a bit of a strawman. Lawmakers are trying to limit the rights of law-abiding citizens. That is not right when it is generally law-breakers who are at fault. There are laws on the books to stop felons from applying to buy guns - but very few get prosecuted even when caught. Prosecuting these people and having minimum sentences when convicted would make far more sense than making new laws to disallow law-abiding citizens from buying guns. And how do you propose Lawmakers do that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,672 #82 September 25, 2013 DaVinciQuoteSomeone with a gun but without that training might potentially do more harm than good, especially if they are a little bit gung ho about "taking out" the terrorists And yet you can't find many if any examples of a citizen making things worse....... . I can certainly find examples of armed police making things worse. And we have examples of armed civilians shooting people they thought were intruders, but in fact were just visitors or even family members.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #83 September 25, 2013 QuoteDid he stop the mass shooting? According to the report, he saved 100 lives. QuoteThis would imply that you know exactly what happened and therefor it is a good example to use. Why, you have the same info and already have the expert opinion that it is not a good example. I am using the same source, in your opinion it is invalid. You claiming I don't have enough information to have a contrary opinion is hypocritical.... Especially when the whole report seems to agree with my opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #84 September 25, 2013 kallend Well, YOU may equate killing someone with grafitti artistry, but most normal people wouldn't. Lame personal attack.... Typical for you. Maybe you should talk about the topic and not me? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #85 September 25, 2013 kallend***QuoteSomeone with a gun but without that training might potentially do more harm than good, especially if they are a little bit gung ho about "taking out" the terrorists And yet you can't find many if any examples of a citizen making things worse....... . I can certainly find examples of armed police making things worse. Police != armed citizens. Police HAVE to intervene... Civilians do not. A swing and a miss Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #86 September 25, 2013 QuoteAnd how do you propose Lawmakers do that? Look at one of the people arrested in the Chicago shooting. He was a Felon (1) and was arrested for another felony (2) while carrying and using a gun (3 & 4) in a city that had no concealed weapons law (5). For being a felon and getting caught using a firearm after being a felon... He was sent to a 'boot camp'. Why was this repeat offender ever let out into society again? A violent criminal should never be in a free society. If a violent criminal is caught with a firearm or committing another violent crime, they should never see the light of day again. This would be going after the criminal and leaving honest citizens alone. As for mental health issues, if the person has serious mental health issues, they should not be allowed to own a firearm. Put their name on a list of prohibited persons. This also leaves the 99.9% of honest citizens alone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,150 #87 September 25, 2013 QuoteFor being a felon and getting caught using a firearm after being a felon... He was sent to a 'boot camp'. Why was this repeat offender ever let out into society again? A violent criminal should never be in a free society. If a violent criminal is caught with a firearm or committing another violent crime, they should never see the light of day again. Lawmakers don't arrest and prosecute. The second part of your post would have them making more laws, which is something you don't want them to do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #88 September 25, 2013 QuoteLawmakers don't arrest and prosecute. You avoided the question. QuoteThe second part of your post would have them making more laws, which is something you don't want them to do. It is already illegal for a FELON to own a firearm. The sentencing laws area already in place. No new laws would be needed. BUT you are also trying to put words into my mouth. I never said I didn't want new laws. I said I think we should focus on the criminals and not the honest. So you are both incorrect and presumptuous. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,150 #89 September 25, 2013 QuoteYou avoided the question. Skypuppy posted about lawmakers. I asked him a question about lawmakers in return. You jumped in with a question that had nothing to do with lawmakers. So, I informed you of such. Your response: you didn't answer the question. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,672 #90 September 25, 2013 DaVinci******QuoteSomeone with a gun but without that training might potentially do more harm than good, especially if they are a little bit gung ho about "taking out" the terrorists And yet you can't find many if any examples of a citizen making things worse....... . I can certainly find examples of armed police making things worse. Police != armed citizens. Police HAVE to intervene... Civilians do not. A swing and a miss Funny how you snipped this sentence: "And we have examples of armed civilians shooting people they thought were intruders, but in fact were just visitors or even family members."... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,672 #91 September 25, 2013 DaVinci It is already illegal for a FELON to own a firearm. The sentencing laws area already in place. No new laws would be needed. Indeed, but no effective process in place to enforce it. Courtesy of the gun lobby, which emasculates any and every effort to establish an effective process.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #92 September 25, 2013 QuoteSkypuppy posted about lawmakers. I asked him a question about lawmakers in return. You jumped in with a question that had nothing to do with lawmakers. So, I informed you of such. You replied to ME and avoided my question with some distraction about lawmakers. "For being a felon and getting caught using a firearm after being a felon... He was sent to a 'boot camp'. Why was this repeat offender ever let out into society again? A violent criminal should never be in a free society. If a violent criminal is caught with a firearm or committing another violent crime, they should never see the light of day again." Be honest and admit you made a mistake. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #93 September 25, 2013 kallend*********QuoteSomeone with a gun but without that training might potentially do more harm than good, especially if they are a little bit gung ho about "taking out" the terrorists And yet you can't find many if any examples of a citizen making things worse....... . I can certainly find examples of armed police making things worse. Police != armed citizens. Police HAVE to intervene... Civilians do not. A swing and a miss Funny how you snipped this sentence: "And we have examples of armed civilians shooting people they thought were intruders, but in fact were just visitors or even family members." Funny how you ignored the first part. Yes, accidents happen. No law will prevent this. Maybe you should state what law you think would prevent it. Because it is pretty clear that you don't want honest citizens to own weapons. But please, tell me what law would prevent the type of accident you brought up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #94 September 25, 2013 kallend*** It is already illegal for a FELON to own a firearm. The sentencing laws area already in place. No new laws would be needed. Indeed, but no effective process in place to enforce it. Courtesy of the gun lobby, which emasculates any and every effort to establish an effective process. There is a background check process in pace. It has been emasculated because the laws are not being followed. Each of the mass shooters had a history if it had been reported would have prevented them from buying a weapon. But even with all the current laws, the Newtown shooter would not have been stopped. The problem is with the reporting, not the current laws. You don't like citizens owning firearms... It is clear with every post you make. It is clear with every suggestion you make. It is clear with every argument you make. You care less about disarming violent criminals than you do honest citizens. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,150 #95 September 25, 2013 DaVinciQuoteSkypuppy posted about lawmakers. I asked him a question about lawmakers in return. You jumped in with a question that had nothing to do with lawmakers. So, I informed you of such. You replied to ME and avoided my question with some distraction about lawmakers. "For being a felon and getting caught using a firearm after being a felon... He was sent to a 'boot camp'. Why was this repeat offender ever let out into society again? A violent criminal should never be in a free society. If a violent criminal is caught with a firearm or committing another violent crime, they should never see the light of day again." Be honest and admit you made a mistake. wow. so, post #78 was by skypuppy. I responded with post #81. You responded to that with post #83. That would make the reply coming from you, to me. See, when you learn to count #78 comes before #81, which in turn comes before #83. Or you can just scroll up. (the repeat offender was let out into society so you can keep digging a bigger hole) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,672 #96 September 25, 2013 DaVinci************QuoteSomeone with a gun but without that training might potentially do more harm than good, especially if they are a little bit gung ho about "taking out" the terrorists And yet you can't find many if any examples of a citizen making things worse....... . I can certainly find examples of armed police making things worse. Police != armed citizens. Police HAVE to intervene... Civilians do not. A swing and a miss Funny how you snipped this sentence: "And we have examples of armed civilians shooting people they thought were intruders, but in fact were just visitors or even family members." Funny how you ignored the first part. Yes, accidents happen. No law will prevent this. Maybe you should state what law you think would prevent it. Because it is pretty clear that you don't want honest citizens to own weapons. But please, tell me what law would prevent the type of accident you brought up. Just answering the question YOU asked: "And yet you can't find many if any examples of a citizen making things worse....... " Short memory you have.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #97 September 25, 2013 kallend Just answering the question YOU asked: "And yet you can't find many if any examples of a citizen making things worse....... " Short memory you have. talking about incidents where someone at home mistakenly shoots a presumed intruder is not a valid example of a citizen at a public shooting making things worse. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #98 September 25, 2013 kallend*** It is already illegal for a FELON to own a firearm. The sentencing laws area already in place. No new laws would be needed. Indeed, but no effective process in place to enforce it. Courtesy of the gun lobby, which emasculates any and every effort to establish an effective process. The NRA and others have long asked the question of why, of the 2M people who were rejected during the Brady check, only a few dozen per year are prosecuted, the Feds reply is we don't have the time or interest. The NRA has long advocated for minimum sentencing guidelines for crimes committed with guns. They have no opposition to a stiff penalty for a convicted felon caught in possession of a concealed gun in Chicago. The enforcement failure came from the judge in the situation presented. You can't palm that one off on your bogeyman. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #99 September 26, 2013 kallend*** It is already illegal for a FELON to own a firearm. The sentencing laws area already in place. No new laws would be needed. Indeed, but no effective process in place to enforce it. Courtesy of the gun lobby, which emasculates any and every effort to establish an effective process. That's not true at all. You're saying they don;t do enuf checks before a felon can get a gun -- we're saying when a felon is CAUGHT WITH A GUN there damm sure is a way to enforce the the law -- PROSECUTE HIM! Unfortunately, the state and federal enforcers don't seem to want to bother. Maybe they think if more felons realize they won't be punished and more felons are then caught with guns, that will work in the their favor...If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #100 September 26, 2013 GravitymasterWhoa....hold on there. Are you trying to say that an ex-Marine (read civilian) with a handgun saved 100 unarmed people from being killed by criminals with guns? Thats what I am saying.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
