More training needed.

[kallend 1,679]

www.nytimes.com/2013/09/16/nyregion/firing-at-man-in-times-square-police-wound-two-bystanders.html

"Confronted by an agitated man who at one point lay down in the middle of a crowded intersection in Times Square, two police officers fired shots late Saturday evening at the man, striking two bystanders instead, the authorites said."

WTF kind of firearms training do these cops get?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gravitymaster 0]

kallend

www.nytimes.com/2013/09/16/nyregion/firing-at-man-in-times-square-police-wound-two-bystanders.html

"Confronted by an agitated man who at one point lay down in the middle of a crowded intersection in Times Square, two police officers fired shots late Saturday evening at the man, striking two bystanders instead, the authorites said."

WTF kind of firearms training do these cops get?

Very little, as has been pointed out to the anti-second amendmenters time and time again. This is just another example of why people should not rely on the police for protection.

[rhaig 0]

yet in the minds of some, police officers are the only ones to be trusted with guns.

--
Rob

[Gravitymaster 0]

rhaig

yet in the minds of some, police officers are the only ones to be trusted with guns.

I think it's sad that certain people think the government should take care of them and cater to their every desire including providing for their personal security. It really shows how far we have digressed as a nation.

[lawrocket 3]

These are the only people Bloomberg thinks should have guns. Isn't that lovely?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[lawrocket 3]

It's refreshing to see that it isn't just New York City where cops are a little quick on the trigger. At least this cop hit the target.

[Url]http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57602996/unarmed-man-possibly-looking-for-help-after-wreck-shot-by-police/[/url]

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Bignugget 0]

rhaig

yet in the minds of some, police officers are the only ones to be trusted with guns.

In the minds of MANY,

Police should be some of the MOST PROFICIENT of all citizens in the use, and in their judgement of use, of firearms.

If the most proficient is that, then putting guns in the hands of people like RUSH and Gravitymaster is REALLY a mistake.

Proof of concept....the fact we murder more people with guns than any 1st world nation by FAR.

[Bignugget 0]

lawrocket

It's refreshing to see that it isn't just New York City where cops are a little quick on the trigger. At least this cop hit the target.

[Url]http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57602996/unarmed-man-possibly-looking-for-help-after-wreck-shot-by-police/[/url]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BART_Police_shooting_of_Oscar_Grant

One of my favorites.

Cop mounts kid surrounded by other cops and pulls his gun out and shoots the kid in the back

CAPTURED ON LIKE 5 DIFFERENT VIDEOS.

He gets found guilty of manslaughter, and is out of prison and a free man after well less than 2 years in jail for killing a kid.

Awesome.

[rhaig 0]

Bignugget

Police should be some of the MOST PROFICIENT of all citizens in the use, and in their judgement of use, of firearms.

and yet, they are not. This is why I train with my own firearm. I don't ever want to need to rely on someone else for defense of myself or my family. Especially if they are trained similarly to these officers.

--
Rob

[PiLFy 0]

kallend

www.nytimes.com/2013/09/16/nyregion/firing-at-man-in-times-square-police-wound-two-bystanders.html

"Confronted by an agitated man who at one point lay down in the middle of a crowded intersection in Times Square, two police officers fired shots late Saturday evening at the man, striking two bystanders instead, the authorites said."

WTF kind of firearms training do these cops get?

It's paradoxical, but I know of many Police officers who treat their sidearms as no more than an accessory to their uniform. They only maintain them, sporadically. They only go to the range to qualify... This, despite their being far more likely to be involved in a shooting.

I, & other gun owners I know, put far more effort into our proficiency.

[wolfriverjoe 1,368]

Bignugget

***yet in the minds of some, police officers are the only ones to be trusted with guns.

In the minds of MANY,

Police should be some of the MOST PROFICIENT of all citizens in the use, and in their judgement of use, of firearms.

If the most proficient is that, then putting guns in the hands of people like RUSH and Gravitymaster is REALLY a mistake.

Proof of concept....the fact we murder more people with guns than any 1st world nation by FAR.

But the cops aren't proficient with their guns.

The required level of training is pretty low.

Often it's only semi-annual or annual. And "qualification" is often slow fire, from a standing shooting position, at single stationary targets.

Many civilians practice far, far more often, and use far more realistic training techniques (shoot and move, multiple targets, rapid fire, moving targets, ect.)

The local PD trains at the range I'm part of, and I've observed it a couple times (as a range officer helping the PD set up and such). The range also offers a discounted membership to police officers to allow them shoot on their own (all kinds of shooting, not just training with duty pistols - some are hunters).

I've seen the cops shoot. A few are very, very good. Most are adequate. Some are pathetic.

Using cops as a metric of shooting skills and assuming that they are the best out there is naïve.

And wrong.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Bignugget 0]

wolfriverjoe

******yet in the minds of some, police officers are the only ones to be trusted with guns.

In the minds of MANY,

Police should be some of the MOST PROFICIENT of all citizens in the use, and in their judgement of use, of firearms.

If the most proficient is that, then putting guns in the hands of people like RUSH and Gravitymaster is REALLY a mistake.

Proof of concept....the fact we murder more people with guns than any 1st world nation by FAR.

But the cops aren't proficient with their guns.

The required level of training is pretty low.

Often it's only semi-annual or annual. And "qualification" is often slow fire, from a standing shooting position, at single stationary targets.

Many civilians practice far, far more often, and use far more realistic training techniques (shoot and move, multiple targets, rapid fire, moving targets, ect.)

The local PD trains at the range I'm part of, and I've observed it a couple times (as a range officer helping the PD set up and such). The range also offers a discounted membership to police officers to allow them shoot on their own (all kinds of shooting, not just training with duty pistols - some are hunters).

I've seen the cops shoot. A few are very, very good. Most are adequate. Some are pathetic.

Using cops as a metric of shooting skills and assuming that they are the best out there is naïve.

And wrong.


They should be.

You aren't required to pass any kind of tests, realistic or not, semi-annually or annually. I know you claim to train, and be supremely effective when compared to police...and who would know better besides you.

100 million of you running around armed is even scarier than the cops who still suck and hit random women in the ass after training and passing tests 2x a year.

[Bignugget 0]

lawrocket

It's refreshing to see that it isn't just New York City where cops are a little quick on the trigger. At least this cop hit the target.

[Url]http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57602996/unarmed-man-possibly-looking-for-help-after-wreck-shot-by-police/[/url]

Or who could forget

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/31/us/florida-police-shooting/index.html

Blasting 15 rounds at a 60 year old man.....oh yea...and only hitting him twice. Nice.

[wolfriverjoe 1,368]

***


They should be.

You aren't required to pass any kind of tests, realistic or not, semi-annually or annually. I know you claim to train, and be supremely effective when compared to police...and who would know better besides you.

100 million of you running around armed is even scarier than the cops who still suck and hit random women in the ass after training and passing tests 2x a year.

Well, then donate a bunch of money to the cops so that they can afford to train properly. It isn't cheap. Facilities cost money. Time for the trainers and the officers costs money. Ammunition costs a lot of money.

I don't claim to be "supremely effective" compared to the cops. I know I'm nowhere near as good at conflict resolution. Or at confronting an adversary. Or even necessarily at deciding when to shoot or not to shoot.

But I do know I'm far better with a pistol than most cops. Because I shoot a lot more. And because I've shot with them. The locals won't compete against me anymore (informal just for fun - loser buys the winner a soda).

And I'm not the only one. There's a group of "usual suspects" who come out and practice on a regular basis.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Bignugget 0]

wolfriverjoe

***


They should be.

You aren't required to pass any kind of tests, realistic or not, semi-annually or annually. I know you claim to train, and be supremely effective when compared to police...and who would know better besides you.

100 million of you running around armed is even scarier than the cops who still suck and hit random women in the ass after training and passing tests 2x a year.

Well, then donate a bunch of money to the cops so that they can afford to train properly. It isn't cheap. Facilities cost money. Time for the trainers and the officers costs money. Ammunition costs a lot of money.

I don't claim to be "supremely effective" compared to the cops. I know I'm nowhere near as good at conflict resolution. Or at confronting an adversary. Or even necessarily at deciding when to shoot or not to shoot.

But I do know I'm far better with a pistol than most cops. Because I shoot a lot more. And because I've shot with them. The locals won't compete against me anymore (informal just for fun - loser buys the winner a soda).

And I'm not the only one. There's a group of "usual suspects" who come out and practice on a regular basis.

Fair enough.

Pretty much sums up my concerns about guns.

"I don't claim to be "supremely effective" compared to the cops. I know I'm nowhere near as good at conflict resolution. Or at confronting an adversary. Or even necessarily at deciding when to shoot or not to shoot.

But I do know I'm far better with a pistol"

I think the order of operations should be reversed. Maybe that's the issue with cops. Since they (hopefully) stress that using the gun is the absolute last resort, actually using it does not get enough attention.

I don't need to donate money to their training. More than enough money to go around when we stop (ineffectively) policing the world.

[wolfriverjoe 1,368]

That's a big part of it. A lot of cops go their entire careers without ever firing a shot outside of the shooting range.

The good ones know that while they may never need it, they also may need it during the next call. And maintain both the pistol and their skills appropriately.

Others...
Not so much. Check out the pistol on the side of the next cop you talk to. Look at how dusty/dirty it is. I've noticed some that look like they haven't been out of the holster in a long time.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[D22369 0]

100 million of you running around armed is even scarier than the cops who still suck and hit random women in the ass after training and passing tests 2x a year. ***


100 million of us? just running around waving our guns anytime anywhere huh?

we get it, your scared of guns, fine, I even understand why.

however...

many of us actually have training and maintain a high level of proficiency so that if we have to use our firearm we don't hit some random woman in the ass.

your blanket statement is quite annoying.

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Bignugget

***yet in the minds of some, police officers are the only ones to be trusted with guns.

In the minds of MANY,

Police should be some of the MOST PROFICIENT of all citizens in the use, and in their judgement of use, of firearms.

If the most proficient is that, then putting guns in the hands of people like RUSH and Gravitymaster is REALLY a mistake.

Proof of concept....the fact we murder more people with guns than any 1st world nation by FAR.

I have never shot anyone, so what's your problem with me carrying a gun?

You do realize the police carry guns to protect themselves and have no duty to use their guns to protect you, don't you?

[Bignugget 0]

D22369

100 million of you running around armed is even scarier than the cops who still suck and hit random women in the ass after training and passing tests 2x a year. ***


100 million of us? just running around waving our guns anytime anywhere huh?

we get it, your scared of guns, fine, I even understand why.

however...

many of us actually have training and maintain a high level of proficiency so that if we have to use our firearm we don't hit some random woman in the ass.

your blanket statement is quite annoying.

Roy

You claim a large majority of firearm owners are more proficient at firearm use than police?

(the level of proficiency being the qualifications police maintain)

I'm not scared of guns. I am scared of the 100+ million people that have guns, and are less qualified in How,When,Why, to use them than the police....who are obviously under-trained.

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

I'm not scared of guns. I am scared of the 100+ million people that have guns, and are less qualified in How,When,Why, to use them than the police....who are obviously under-trained.

Just wear Kevlar & stay outta their way then!

Everybody has to be 'scared' of something...for you it's law abiding citizens exercising their constitutional rights.

For me it's clowns...clowns really scare me!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Stumpy 256]

Mimes.

*Shudder.....*

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[kallend 1,679]

rhaig

***
Police should be some of the MOST PROFICIENT of all citizens in the use, and in their judgement of use, of firearms.

and yet, they are not. .

Do you have data to back up that claim? That the average cop is less proficient with a gun than the average civilian?

If so , please post it.

Otherwise it just sounds like a self-serving fiction.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,679]

Well, the gun enthusiasts posting in this thread must all be from Lake Wobegon, since all of them are above average.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rhaig 0]

clearly your grasp of the english language is better than that. So I must assume that you are restating my assertion to fit your ideas and then calling me a liar.

Or your are not actually reading the post (considering it is only a few words long, I think that's not it).

My assertion, if you were to pay attention, is that police are not the most proficient of all citizens, in the use of firearms.

They simply don't train enough.

you want something that shows that police are not the most proficient? Look up Jerry Miculek. I won't even post links as you'd end up claiming some sort of slant.

--
Rob

[Gravitymaster 0]

kallend

Well, the gun enthusiasts posting in this thread must all be from Lake Wobegon, since all of them are above average.

Given you recent memory lapses, I should remind you I just said I have never shot anyone. I do however go to the range approximately 2 times per month and I shoot pretty proficiently.

I hope I never have to find out how I would react to an emergency situation. I would hope I do the right thing. Just like the first malfunction. You never know for sure until the situation arises. I do know that most police are less proficient than I am with a gun and I think anyone who thinks the have some obligation to protect then are incredibly naïve.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia