livendive 8 #26 April 25, 2012 Not having read any details (and not having time to right now), I'll just voice my support for the basic concept. Any definition of "person" that includes corporations, churches, labor unions, or any other collection of actual persons is a faulty one. With regard to campaign finance or lobbying efforts, a company or labor union that has 1000 members has 1000 "voices". It doesn't deserve another, bigger voice for the group. I suspect that the rights acknowledged by our founding fathers attached to individual citizens, and each individual is afforded exactly the same rights as any other, no more or less. Granting additional rights to collections of individuals gives them an (unintended imo) advantage over other individualized not party to the group. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,679 #27 April 25, 2012 QuoteA corporation cannot be imprisoned (though its officers and directors frequently are). But a corporation can be fined. A corporation can be put into receivership. A corporation can be dissolved. But since we're on that subject, Paul - if a corporation is not a person, do you therefore agree that it should not be taxed? And if it IS a person, should it pay tax at the same rates "natural" people do?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #28 April 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteA corporation cannot be imprisoned (though its officers and directors frequently are). But a corporation can be fined. A corporation can be put into receivership. A corporation can be dissolved. But since we're on that subject, Paul - if a corporation is not a person, do you therefore agree that it should not be taxed? And if it IS a person, should it pay tax at the same rates "natural" people do? Corps pay between 15 and 39 percent depending on their profit. Did you have a point?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #29 April 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteA corporation cannot be imprisoned (though its officers and directors frequently are). But a corporation can be fined. A corporation can be put into receivership. A corporation can be dissolved. But since we're on that subject, Paul - if a corporation is not a person, do you therefore agree that it should not be taxed? And if it IS a person, should it pay tax at the same rates "natural" people do? Corps pay between 15 and 39 percent depending on their profit. Did you have a point? Yeah, since I'm just a lowly natural person, can I also avoid paying taxes altogether by claiming I didn't make any money in the US if I just have a PO Box in Switzerland? http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7360932nquade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #30 April 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteA corporation cannot be imprisoned (though its officers and directors frequently are). But a corporation can be fined. A corporation can be put into receivership. A corporation can be dissolved. But since we're on that subject, Paul - if a corporation is not a person, do you therefore agree that it should not be taxed? And if it IS a person, should it pay tax at the same rates "natural" people do? Corps pay between 15 and 39 percent depending on their profit. Did you have a point? Yeah, since I'm just a lowly natural person, can I also avoid paying taxes altogether by claiming I didn't make any money in the US if I just have a PO Box in Switzerland? http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7360932n Sure you can, if you make that money outside the US so that it can be excepted. Next lame question?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #31 April 25, 2012 Uh huh. Have you ever heard of something called a "Repo 105"? Corporate accounting is magical. Corporation have a number of schemes to shuffle money around the globe and claim they never made a dime in the US. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/business/economy/25tax.html?pagewanted=allquade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #32 April 25, 2012 QuoteUh huh. Have you ever heard of something called a "Repo 105"? Nope, sure haven't. Given that a quick Google showed it as only being something attributable to Lehman, seems like it's a bit of a red herring to bring into a conversation about corporate taxes as a whole. QuoteWe are dealing with a tax system that is a dinosaur," Cisco CEO John Chambers told Stahl. One CEO who would talk to us was Chambers. Cisco is the giant high tech company headquartered in San Jose, Calif. He says our tax rate is insane. It's forcing companies into these maneuvers, especially when many other industrialized countries including Canada are busy lowering their tax rates in order to lure our companies and our jobs away.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #33 April 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteA corporation cannot be imprisoned (though its officers and directors frequently are). But a corporation can be fined. A corporation can be put into receivership. A corporation can be dissolved. But since we're on that subject, Paul - if a corporation is not a person, do you therefore agree that it should not be taxed? And if it IS a person, should it pay tax at the same rates "natural" people do? Corps pay between 15 and 39 percent depending on their profit. Did you have a point? I'll freely admit I don't know corporate tax law, but are they taxed on profits only and then apply deductions from there or are they taxed on income and deduct from there?Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #34 April 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteA corporation cannot be imprisoned (though its officers and directors frequently are). But a corporation can be fined. A corporation can be put into receivership. A corporation can be dissolved. But since we're on that subject, Paul - if a corporation is not a person, do you therefore agree that it should not be taxed? And if it IS a person, should it pay tax at the same rates "natural" people do? Corps pay between 15 and 39 percent depending on their profit. Did you have a point? I'll freely admit I don't know corporate tax law, but are they taxed on profits only and then apply deductions from there or are they taxed on income and deduct from there? Profit remaining after deductions, I believe.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #35 April 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteUh huh. Have you ever heard of something called a "Repo 105"? Nope, sure haven't. Given that a quick Google showed it as only being something attributable to Lehman... Now why do you suppose that is? Is it because all corporations play by the same rules you and I do, or is it a perfect example of a loophole inserted into the tax code specifically designed by lobbyists so one particular company can take advantage of it? THAT is how our tax system works. THAT is why the tax code is thousands upon thousands of pages long. THAT is how GE not only pays no taxes, but actually gets a refund! No. Corporations are not people. If they were, they'd be playing by the same rules.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #36 April 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteUh huh. Have you ever heard of something called a "Repo 105"? Nope, sure haven't. Given that a quick Google showed it as only being something attributable to Lehman... Now why do you suppose that is? Is it because all corporations play by the same rules you and I do, or is it a perfect example of a loophole inserted into the tax code specifically designed by lobbyists so one particular company can take advantage of it? THAT is how our tax system works. THAT is why the tax code is thousands upon thousands of pages long. THAT is how GE not only pays no taxes, but actually gets a refund! No. Corporations are not people. If they were, they'd be playing by the same rules. So, you couldn't prove your "PO box in Switzerland" gambit so you're moving the goalposts? People have the same ability to shelter/move move money to reduce their tax bite. And the GE thing was debunked a while back - I'm unsurprised to see you bring it up again as if it's true, though.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #37 April 25, 2012 Quote With regard to campaign finance or lobbying efforts, a company or labor union that has 1000 members has 1000 "voices". It doesn't deserve another, bigger voice for the group. 1000 peons = no voice at all. Proven rather well at the beginning of the 20th Century when it came to labor. And in the latter half with the ACLU. Again, why does 1 billionaire deserve 1000x the voice of millions of people? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #38 April 25, 2012 QuoteSo, you couldn't prove your "PO box in Switzerland" gambit so . . . I was fairly certain you'd gloss over the 60 Minutes story. Now, I know you did.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #39 April 25, 2012 QuotePeople have the same ability to shelter/move move money to reduce their tax bite. The very wealthy; yes. The average Joe? Not a chance.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #40 April 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteSo, you couldn't prove your "PO box in Switzerland" gambit so . . . I was fairly certain you'd gloss over the 60 Minutes story. Now, I know you did. I hit the link under the video that's blocked....that's where the quote from the Cisco CEO came from. Try again....maybe with something to actually support your claim?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #41 April 25, 2012 QuoteQuotePeople have the same ability to shelter/move move money to reduce their tax bite. The very wealthy; yes. The average Joe? Not a chance. Mortgage interest deduction. Childcare credits. Child tax credits. Etc etc.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #42 April 25, 2012 I like what you'v written. As usual, you come in, bring in a dose of sense and rational thought, and put it out there to be digested. But here's something you wrote: QuoteWith regard to campaign finance or lobbying efforts, a company or labor union that has 1000 members has 1000 "voices". It doesn't deserve another, bigger voice for the group. I like this. But what about the First Amendment: QuoteCongress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Now about that right of assembly. Are you suggesting that people should not have the right to get together and join in speech? And isn't the point of a labor union to get the workers together because each of them individually lacked power but together could provide leverage against the employer? If I want to join forces with other people, then shouldn't I be able to? If I really don't like Romney but don't have the money to send out mailers, why can't I join together a other people to join forces and put out money for political speech? Recall what Citizens United was about. They wanted to advertise a film on television stations and the film was critical of Hillary Clinton. The advertisements would have been within 30 days of the Democratic primary in 2008. This wasn't lining the pockets of a congressman. This was putting out political speech. This DOES support the established politicians, who can use their own name recognition, the franking privilege, etc., to their benefit. Of course a candidate generally doesn't like it when some local nonprofit "Whiteacre Citizens for Accountability" group puts out television ads against a politician. When President Obama said afterward, "this ruling strikes at our democracy itself" and "I can't think of anything more devastating to the public interest" he did NOT say, "This ruling strikes at the heart of the Constitution." The criticisms are not directed at freedoms. They are not directed at liberties. They are not directed at the sustaining of free speech. The criticisms are all directed at the effect of the upholding of the freedom. Much like the Patriot Act and the warrantless wiretaps are contrary to the Fourth Amendment, any person who challenges the abrogations of those freedoms is met with the "the terrorists will win." There are people out there who truly believe that there are some people out there who should have no right to free speech. That there are some people out there who should simply be swept off the streets because of the possible dangers that are presented at maintaining their freedoms. Some people want appeals abolished in death penalty cases. Some people think that warrantless searches are fine because people with nothing to hide have nothing to worry about. And then there are others who view Constitutional protections as accepting that individual liberties make an orderly society ("orderly" as determined by whomever is in power) much more difficult. Yes, the First Amendment DOES stand in the way of gagging speech. The First Amendment DOES stand in the way of suppressing ideas. While you may have a great deal of personal distaste for that person standing on the corner with a sign hawking mortgage refinancing by some mortgage broker, the fact is that said speech is protected by the First Amendment. So if Dave stands on a streetcorner with a sign protesting Citizens United, that's protected. If I paid Dave to stand on a streetcorner with a sign protesting citizens United, that it also protected and should be. But if Dave is paid by the nonprofit corporation "Citizens Against Corporate Speech" to stand on a streetcorner with a sign protesting Citizens United then it shouldn't be protected? Seriously! What the hell? My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #43 April 25, 2012 QuoteCorporation have a number of schemes to shuffle money around the globe and claim they never made a dime in the US. Ever hear of "Transfer Pricing?" Ever see this? http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/482 You know transfer pricing and taxation of international goods and services is handled by treaty? Did you know that the IRS has branches that advise corporations, partnerships, etc. on how tax treatment is afforded? And they work WITH these companies to discuss and strategize the tax treatments? That companies go to these IRS branches for opinions on transfer pricing issues because it makes sense to do so. Why does it make sense? Because if the company is found to have not paid taxes it should have, it will avoid penalties by providing the opinion letters from the IRS regarding their tax liabilities and compliance with IRS advice. Name a Fortune 500 company, and rest assured that the CFO of that company is on a first name basis with IRS attorneys and economists. Paul - you are pointing out problems with politics. Take it up with a President who can't get treaties agreed to and a Senate for not approving them. Take it up with Congress for not pursuing tax reform and a President for utterly failing to even ACKNOWLEDGE his own commission's report on tax reform and debt prevention. You are, like so many others, pointing your finger at the people who benefit from the rules versus pointing your finger at the people who MAKE the rules. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #44 April 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuotePeople have the same ability to shelter/move move money to reduce their tax bite. The very wealthy; yes. The average Joe? Not a chance. Mortgage interest deduction. Childcare credits. Child tax credits. Etc etc. Right, right, because companies CAN'T deduct rents and leases?!? As for the child care and child tax credits, can you guess why corporations can't deduct those? Because they're not people and can't make babies! Dude, you're simply hilarious today!quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #45 April 25, 2012 QuoteRight, right, because companies CAN'T deduct rents and leases?!? So, your claim that average joes can't move/shelter income is debunked. QuoteAs for the child care and child tax credits, can you guess why corporations can't deduct those? Because they're not people and can't make babies! Dude, you're simply hilarious today! Another attempt to misdirect when your argument fails? Imagine that...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #46 April 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuotePeople have the same ability to shelter/move move money to reduce their tax bite. The very wealthy; yes. The average Joe? Not a chance. Mortgage interest deduction. Childcare credits. Child tax credits. Etc etc. Right, right, because companies CAN'T deduct rents and leases?!? As for the child care and child tax credits, can you guess why corporations can't deduct those? Because they're not people and can't make babies! Dude, you're simply hilarious today! How did the "very wealthy" turn in companies and corporations? Are you saying rich people can't have babies? Something is amiss. OTOH, I'd rather continue the conversation that Lawrocket and I have focused on - Citizens United and free speech. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #47 April 25, 2012 I don't like the effect of Citizens United, but if I were to draft a Constitutional amendment to remedy it, I would tailor it very narrowly, simply to limit the expenditure of money and other things of value (definition? I'm not sure..) by non-individual actors. But this proposed amendment, as currently worded, is really potentially quite dangerous, IMO. I share Lawrocket's concern about the full practical effect of this proposed amendment (although, frankly I don't think it stands a chance in hell of ever being fully ratified). Some (additional) examples: - Suppose I own, say, a retail store or a repair shop, and I've incorporated my business to protect my personal home and assets from business liability (very common). I want to post a sign in my front window that says "God bless America". With this amendment, any level or official of government can ban it. - A lot of commercial real estate these days is owned by corporations or similar (non-individual, non-partnership) limited-liability entities. If the government wants to condemn, seize and demolish the property to clear the right-of-way for a new superhighway, this amendment could be used to take away the property-owners' right to just compensation, and/or to use the courts to enforce that right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #48 April 25, 2012 See? Andy isn't always wrong. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,679 #50 April 26, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteA corporation cannot be imprisoned (though its officers and directors frequently are). But a corporation can be fined. A corporation can be put into receivership. A corporation can be dissolved. But since we're on that subject, Paul - if a corporation is not a person, do you therefore agree that it should not be taxed? And if it IS a person, should it pay tax at the same rates "natural" people do? Corps pay between 15 and 39 percent depending on their profit. Did you have a point? Indeed, so GE would actually pay at 39% instead of ZERO... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
