Gunpowder

[Skyrad 0]

Its easy to make gun cotton, (not so much if you live in a hot climate and have no ice) might be easier to make an improvised weapon using it.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

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Its easy to make gun cotton, (not so much if you live in a hot climate and have no ice) might be easier to make an improved weapon using it.

True, but that was hardly my point.

My point was films which portray a post-apocalyptic world and high rates of automatic weapons fire just don't seem like something which is sustainable.

The other thing to consider is you won't have the internet, so unless you have a book at your disposal with formulas and procedures or you already know how to make the stuff, you're not going to be able to look it up on Wikipedia.

My guess is, the vast majority of people do not have the printed material laying around that would tell them how to go about making it.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Amazon 7]

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Its easy to make gun cotton, (not so much if you live in a hot climate and have no ice) might be easier to make an improved weapon using it.

True, but that was hardly my point.

My point was films which portray a post-apocalyptic world and high rates of automatic weapons fire just don't seem like something which is sustainable.

The other thing to consider is you won't have the internet, so unless you have a book at your disposal with formulas and procedures or you already know how to make the stuff, you're not going to be able to look it up on Wikipedia.

My guess is, the vast majority of people do not have the printed material laying around that would tell them how to go about making it.

Hey.. there are still libraries.... so you might have to take out a few zombies to get the books... no big deal right??

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Hey.. there are still libraries.... so you might have to take out a few zombies to get the books... no big deal right??

Maybe. There are some libraries today where it would still be difficult to find the information you'd want and every day printed material is becoming less and less available. Sure, the knowledge will ultimately survive (let's say in the archives of the Library of Congress), but whether it would be useful to you as an individual is another thing entirely.

The main branch of the library for my city is within a mile of where I live, but I really have no idea if the information to create guncotton exists there. I'm fairly familiar with the Dewy decimal system, but couldn't tell you precisely what the number was that I'd be looking for. Card catalogues were replaced by computers years ago, so good luck finding it and my guess is you're not the only one that going to want the book, so if you don't get it fast you're probably SOL.

You USED to be able to count of three or four brick and mortal bookstores in any given mall. Good luck with that today.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[wolfriverjoe 1,351]

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Its easy to make gun cotton, (not so much if you live in a hot climate and have no ice) might be easier to make an improved weapon using it.

True, but that was hardly my point.

My point was films which portray a post-apocalyptic world and high rates of automatic weapons fire just don't seem like something which is sustainable.

The other thing to consider is you won't have the internet, so unless you have a book at your disposal with formulas and procedures or you already know how to make the stuff, you're not going to be able to look it up on Wikipedia.

My guess is, the vast majority of people do not have the printed material laying around that would tell them how to go about making it.

How many films accurately portray anything?

The Road Warrior explained the gasoline situation by having an oil well and small refinery inside the compound (How did the bad guys get gas? I don't know).

Gasoline and guncotton would be valuable commodities. The technical knowledge how to make them (or making electricity or pharmeceuticals or food or...) would be very valuable.
Gasoline and smokeless powder were developed in the late 19th century. Pharma in the early 20th. Nothing that couldn't be accomplished in a post-apocolypse world, with the proper knowledge.

And the books on this sort of thing aren't usually in the average public library, they Are Available. You just have to have a few of them before things go bad.

But that sort of behavior is being paranoid, isn't it?

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Amazon 7]

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Hey.. there are still libraries.... so you might have to take out a few zombies to get the books... no big deal right??

Maybe. There are some libraries today where it would still be difficult to find the information you'd want and every day printed material is becoming less and less available. Sure, the knowledge will ultimately survive (let's say in the archives of the Library of Congress), but whether it would be useful to you as an individual is another thing entirely.

The main branch of the library for my city is within a mile of where I live, but I really have no idea if the information to create guncotton exists there. I'm fairly familiar with the Dewy decimal system, but couldn't tell you precisely what the number was that I'd be looking for. Card catalogues were replaced by computers years ago, so good luck finding it and my guess is you're not the only one that going to want the book, so if you don't get it fast you're probably SOL.

You USED to be able to count of three or four brick and mortal bookstores in any given mall. Good luck with that today.

Not to worry Quade... if we need to go to war with the Gorn.. I got your back man

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Gasoline and smokeless powder were developed in the late 19th century. Pharma in the early 20th. Nothing that couldn't be accomplished in a post-apocolypse world, with the proper knowledge.

Proper knowledge only gets you so far. You also need to raw materials the the energy to run the machinery.

Just making something as seemingly simply as smokeless gunpowder requires a fairly extensive and interconnected web of technologies.

Would somebody eventually make it? Sure. No doubt.

It also depends on what we mean by post-apocalypse and just how far civilization has collapsed, but in almost every scenario I can think of it's winds up being something that really wasn't an apocalypse or . . . we really do sort of revert to the Middle-ages and have to rebuild from there with only a marginal head start because of our previous knowledge. We might have the knowledge in book form, but certainly not the skilled humans or modern technology to recreate it. We don't even get to revert to steam . . . most of that knowledge is lost.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 3]

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Not to worry Quade... if we need to go to war with the Gorn.. I got your back man

Yeah, about that episode . . . no way Kirk could have possibly made that weapon work.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[skydiver604 0]

http://www.history.org/foundation/journal/autumn00/gunsmith.cfm

talk to one on these guys

There is a video from Colonial Williamsburg from the 70's (i think) that shows the complete process of making a flintlock rifle from start to finish, really cool to watch, everything is done by hand, no electricity etc. the Gunsmith in the video is Wallace Gusler mentioned in the above article.

"The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it." - Michelangelo

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Gasoline and smokeless powder were developed in the late 19th century. Pharma in the early 20th. Nothing that couldn't be accomplished in a post-apocolypse world, with the proper knowledge.

Proper knowledge only gets you so far. You also need to raw materials the the energy to run the machinery.

Just making something as seemingly simply as smokeless gunpowder requires a fairly extensive and interconnected web of technologies.

Would somebody eventually make it? Sure. No doubt.

It also depends on what we mean by post-apocalypse and just how far civilization has collapsed, but in almost every scenario I can think of it's winds up being something that really wasn't an apocalypse or . . . we really do sort of revert to the Middle-ages and have to rebuild from there with only a marginal head start because of our previous knowledge. We might have the knowledge in book form, but certainly not the skilled humans or modern technology to recreate it. We don't even get to revert to steam . . . most of that knowledge is lost.

Smokeless powder would be a luxory. But black powder would suffice, is easy to make ( I made it from raw earth materials in junior high), and also is a servicable explosive, unlike smokeless powders.
In a post-apocalyptic society, we would only need to reverse engineer technology. That is far easier than not even knowing something is possible to begin with.
Take electricity for example. Before it became widespread and accepted, it was viewed as some sort of black magic. Very few understood it at all. Today most people know he very basics, a very large percentage know a lot, and people who can design a complete system from generation to light bulbs, motors, and controls are everywhere.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Oh, and gasoline. It would not be my fuel of choice. I would opt for alcohol. Easy to make and far more uses than gasoline.

Edit to add: Black powder and alcohol. Hmmm...sounds familiar. Maybe those hillbilly bootleggers knew something we don't.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[quade 3]

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Smokeless powder would be a luxory. But black powder would suffice . . .

But let's be clear, you're not using black powder to reload your AK-47, 1911 or any other "modern" weapon. It's just not going work properly.

I'm open to hearing other people's opinions on the topic, but that's my current understanding of the situation.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[lummy 4]

you can easily get saltpeter on ebay. Supposedly sold at your local wally world as well.
Having a large stock of saltpeter would be essential to surviving. You would want a lot of it to cure meats since there likely won't be any refrigerators you can use.

I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1

[wolfriverjoe 1,351]

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Gasoline and smokeless powder were developed in the late 19th century. Pharma in the early 20th. Nothing that couldn't be accomplished in a post-apocolypse world, with the proper knowledge.

Proper knowledge only gets you so far. You also need to raw materials the the energy to run the machinery.

Just making something as seemingly simply as smokeless gunpowder requires a fairly extensive and interconnected web of technologies.

Would somebody eventually make it? Sure. No doubt.

It also depends on what we mean by post-apocalypse and just how far civilization has collapsed, but in almost every scenario I can think of it's winds up being something that really wasn't an apocalypse or . . . we really do sort of revert to the Middle-ages and have to rebuild from there with only a marginal head start because of our previous knowledge. We might have the knowledge in book form, but certainly not the skilled humans or modern technology to recreate it. We don't even get to revert to steam . . . most of that knowledge is lost.

And

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Smokeless powder would be a luxory. But black powder would suffice . . .

But let's be clear, you're not using black powder to reload your AK-47, 1911 or any other "modern" weapon. It's just not going work properly.

I'm open to hearing other people's opinions on the topic, but that's my current understanding of the situation.

Responding to both posts:

I'm not up to speed on pharma or even modern gunpowder, but there's oil wells all over the place, and even small refineries in a lot of places. Fractional distillation is pretty basic science. Power to run the pumps and distillation process could come from solar, wind or hydro.

I wouldn't be capable of doing it, but anyone who could would be pretty powerful

And for the second post, you certainly could load an AK or a 1911 with black powder. The action wouldn't function automatically, the bullet wouldn't be propelled very fast, and it would get dirty, really dirty, really fast. But it would fire and be lethal.
And 38 Special, 44 Special and 45 Colt for pistols, 45-70 and 30-30 for rifles (among others) were originally black powder cartridges. Primers would be a challenge, but doable.
There are books in the link I posted previously that not only have the process for making the stuff, but also ways of obtaining the raw materials (saltpeter for black powder for example).

And I agree that it depends on the degree of "apocalypse". History Channel did a show about a flu pandemic that they theorized would push civilization back to the 18th or 19th century in terms of technology. A fairly benign situation like that would leave a lot of infrastructure still intact and usable by those with the knowledge.
And I agree with whoever it was said that the knowledge that it is possible will make it a lot easier to reaquire a lot of technology. There are very few who now know how to use steam power, but I'm sure it wouldn't take more than a handful of engineers and machinists to relearn it. Again, wind, solar or hydro to power the machine tools (or even old fashioned elbow grease with hacksaws and files).

Take the apocalypse to the extreme, major asteroid impact or similar, and then back to the Dark Ages for tech is very likely. There would also be a much smaller pool of knowledge to draw on. A lot more technology would be gone, not to return for a long, long time.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Kennedy 0]

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The Mad Max series touched up on this many years before. I remember noticing the absence of firearms in the last two movies and accepted it as bullets are an extreme commodity.

Oddly, they still seem to have gasoline. (Which my guess probably runs out MUCH faster.)

Ehhh. . .crap. You're right here. The reality would have stopped the plot cold.

You still could make biodiesel at farms. Gasoline would be hard to come by, but diesel engines can run forever. MadMax plot realism? Not so much.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[LongWayToFall 0]

Diesels can also run on: Kerosene, used motor oil, veggy oil, Jet fuel, etc etc. I agree, a mechanical pump diesel would be my first bet.

About black powder- It can be made very easily. Good quality hand made BP is significantly more powerful than commercial stuff, like 2x or more...
Charcoal: Balsa, Willow, and some pines. (Listed in order of preference). Put into a paint can, seal the lid, place in fire until it is charcoal.
Sulfur- You may be able to extract from fertilizer, or find in a pure enough form. It isn't soluble in water, this may be enough to extract.
Potassium Nitrate- Naturally present in soil. I read that it is the only thing that should dissolve in water, so mix a lot of water and soil and filter out the water, let air dry.

You will need a ball mill. Lots of grinding later, you have some nice powder.

About semi autos with black powder, I bet you could reduce the spring strength and get things working with a bit of tweaking...

One last thing: Black powder works well without being contained, but smokeless powder needs to be contained to work correctly.


Edit to add: Poke a small hole in your paint can lid... haha

[nanook 1]

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The Mad Max series touched up on this many years before. I remember noticing the absence of firearms in the last two movies and accepted it as bullets are an extreme commodity.

Oddly, they still seem to have gasoline. (Which my guess probably runs out MUCH faster.)

Ehhh. . .crap. You're right here. The reality would have stopped the plot cold.

You still could make biodiesel at farms. Gasoline would be hard to come by, but diesel engines can run forever. MadMax plot realism? Not so much.

Thank you for shooting down my dream of meeting Aunty Entity.

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"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[nanook 1]

Anyone here ever built one of those Hawken .54 cal prarie guns?

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"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Anyone here ever built one of those Hawken .54 cal prarie guns?

I built a .50 about 35 years ago. It was a CVA kit.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[nanook 1]

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Anyone here ever built one of those Hawken .54 cal prarie guns?

I built a .50 about 35 years ago. It was a CVA kit.

Always been interested in building one of those. Muzzle loaders, punt guns and double barrel shotguns have always fascinated me.

_____________________________

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[BoogeyMan 0]

During WW2 the anti Japanese guerrillas in the Philippines were ingenious as to manufacturing ammo. They used curtain rods as bullets, and match heads as primers. A good study.

[LongWayToFall 0]

Wow that match head idea is very cool.... Where can I find more info about that sort of stuff??

[LongWayToFall 0]

Here is a cool video worth checking out:

http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to-turn-cotton-balls-into-smokeless-gunpowder-196742/view/

Sulfuric Acid and Nitric Acid as a bath for adding various things is very common in making explosives, namely nitroglycerin. Because of this, Nitric acid is hard to get a hold of, as far as I know. I believe you can make it though, using KN03 (the same saltpeter that is used for black powder) along with sulfuric acid, when mixed in a glass container. I think you collect the fumes, which is nitric acid. In a SHTF situation, Nitric acid will be valuable...

So, it looks like making smokeless powder will be quite easy, actually!!! It would sure be fun to make some as shown in the video, and test it in a real gun. Fortunately, sulfuric acid is easy to come by, and if the soil extraction works for KN03, then making it yourself will be a real possibility.

Edit to add: DO NOT use any of the info I have provided to do anything illegal, or dangerous. Knowledge is power, but lots of times it is best left in your head than doing something you might really regret. Just to clarify, I have not, and do not have any plans to, make any sort of explosive or do anything illegal. *BATFE please don't kick my door in!*

[BoogeyMan 0]

Search for unconventional weapons and field expedients. That's probably all I should post on this topic.

[Andy9o8 0]

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Search for unconventional weapons and field expedients. That's probably all I should post on this topic.

Good point. You don't want to violate your security clearance.