Israels' "Right to Exist"

[idrankwhat 0]

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Okay, here it is. Get ready, Skyrad - I'm gonna blow your mind.

I spent a week in Ramallah last month.

Ramallah, as readers may or may not know, is the de-facto capital of Palestine in its current configuration. The Palestinian Authority (funded largely by the USA) is based there. Mahmoud Abbas, and all that.

In that (very short) week, I saw some eye-opening things.

What I saw was not mad bombers, fanatics or whatever. What I saw was people. Just plain old ordinary people, putting up with a lot of hassles (like being forced to use Israeli currency [the NIS - New Israeli Sheckel]) and trying to make the best of a lousy situation.

Consider: Israel insists that the Palestinians recognize Israel as a JEWISH state (Bibi said so right after Obama's watershed speech some seven weeks ago). However, there is no reciprocity: Israel will not recognize the existence of a Palestinian state. In fact Israel refers to the West Bank and Gaza as "disputed" territories, rather than "occupied" territories.

This is important, because by asserting that there never has been a "State of Palestine" (which is actually true, because the occupants of the lands now under Israeli control identified themselves as series of tribal groups rather than a specific ethnic group forming a nation-state entity [Palestine & Palestinian Arabs]), it is therefore possible to deny that the areas are under military occupation by a foreign power and thus not subject to either the Geneva Convention or international law. How convenient.

Does this mean that I side with the Palestinians? In a word - NO. I side with those in both camps who are seeking peaceful coexistence, which is the majority of the people living there.

Unfortunately there are a lot of radicals on both sides who work every day to undermine the peace process, from Israeli soldiers who abuse and humiliate Palestinians (mostly because the Israeli troops are bored and resent the hell out of being nanny-cops in a place where the people despise them), to the Orthodox settlers (whose intolerance for their fellow man is nothing short of appalling), to the assholes in Gaza who keep blindly shooting rockets into Israeli territory.

I'm also fed up with all the lies and propaganda from both sides, but what I'm really fed up with is the billions of dollars that the USA is pissing away each year maintaining the status quo by funding both sides.

I will say this. Having spent some time in Jordan, Israel and Palestine very recently, I'm of the opinion that the Palestinians are a really decent bunch of folks who deserve a break, and recognition of the fact that they aren't responsible for what their parents did back in 1948 and 1967.

mh
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Thanks very much for this excellent post! I think it should be an "Middle East Discussion" sticky at the top of the forum. Members of Congress would benefit from a copy as well.

Wow. Reason. In Speaker's Corner no less.

[ChrisL 2]

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Oh ! I see!
So if I come to your house and smoke you I own your land.

Is that how it all works?
If I kill you I own your land?

Thats how the United States came into existence.

We relocated and/or killed the native American population that was here before us and and kept doing it all the way to the west coast.

It was wrong. Everyone knows it was wrong, but I dont see anyone rushing to give them all their land back.

__

My mighty steed

[Darius11 12]

A word of advice for you just from someone who has been trying to talk about the facts on this issue for many years.

Simple answer we have lots of hypocrites on here. The same people who are talking about taking shit just because they can and using the force as there justification are the same people who will cry like a bitch and never shut the fuck up about it if it happens to them.

Basically by there logic if they had a backbone and could at least stay consistent on ONE standard (which the people you will face on here who have blindly sold there soul do not) Hitler should be there hero? He just killed a bunch of inocent people and took there shit, ruthlessly murdered poor inocent people who did not have a way to protect themselves. By there logic force is the justifier….that’s if they were consistent.

If you use there retarded logic so what, but that’s where the issue is. It sonly bad when bad things happened to fellow Jews if there the ones killing the poor inocent people who are none Jews its ok. They make excuse after excuse. Simple hypocrisy at its worst.

When you apply different standards for different people you are a peace of shit racisist, and not worth the time, or energy for actual debate. There world is not based on logic.

We have the usual Jews can do no wrong crowd here, do some research in there mind 2 + 2 = whatever is better for there side. They have no logic and ZERO moral integrity.


I have asked them this question for years.

Hey Israeli supporters can you give ONE standard that you use to condemn the Palestinians or one standards you use to justify your actions and stay consistent when you apply that standard to the other side? They can not and will not. Simple answer there is no logic in there logic. They simply think Its Israel its my chosen people so I will support whatever they do.

That’s been my experience with this crowd.
You have a few people who tend to stay logical regardless of religion or a sense of camaraderie, but most will excuse a baby being murdered in her mothers arms simply because they feel a sense of camaraderie with the victimizers.

You would think it would be obvious that if you separate your self in to a group and segregate your self. You will become separated and segregated from others. It would also seem obvious that the definition of racism is finding two different conclusions for the same actions where the only difference is that the said action was committed by different groups.

So do you think if Israel was just taken over in a war they would use there Bull shit war logic that they use on the Palestininas? No they would cry and bitch all of a sudden humane rights would mean something to this crowd.

Wouldn’t it be great if they valued all humane life as the same? Too much brain washing as a kid I guess. don't know the answer just know I find it as disgusting humane behavior. The worst of its kind, the kind of mentality that leads to mass murder, genocide and holocausts.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

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I will say this. Having spent some time in Jordan, Israel and Palestine very recently, I'm of the opinion that the Palestinians are a really decent bunch of folks who deserve a break, and recognition of the fact that they aren't responsible for what their parents did back in 1948 and 1967.

I honestly don’t know to be pissed off for all the aggravation you have caused us when we have said the same things about abuse, and all that you mentioned, or be happy as fuck that at least you are willing to see the actual picture, because you saw the actual picture.

I am sure we still wont agree on much but I have to say I am just happy that you have been able to humanize the issue, and understand that they have many reasons to be frustrated and angry with there situation.

I agree lobbing rockets or any action by ANY side that is done with no regard for civilians is appalling.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Guest]

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I will say this. Having spent some time in Jordan, Israel and Palestine very recently, I'm of the opinion that the Palestinians are a really decent bunch of folks who deserve a break, and recognition of the fact that they aren't responsible for what their parents did back in 1948 and 1967.

I honestly don’t know to be pissed off for all the aggravation you have caused us when we have said the same things about abuse, and all that you mentioned, or be happy as fuck that at least you are willing to see the actual picture, because you saw the actual picture.

I am sure we still wont agree on much but I have to say I am just happy that you have been able to humanize the issue, and understand that they have many reasons to be frustrated and angry with there situation.

I agree lobbing rockets or any action by ANY side that is done with no regard for civilians is appalling.

The simple truth was this: bias, brought about by the cultural conditioning I was exposed to all my life. It took being away from the USA for a long enough time for the scales to fall from my eyes so that I could observe the simple truth, which is something I have always advocated: critical thinking!

I must say that there has been a very one-sided dialogue in the USA for a very long time, and it took going there and putting my own boots on the ground and my own eyes on the situation to appreciate and understand it.

My change of heart in this situation might be compared to that of Saul of Tarsus while on the road to Damascus, but that, although somewhat apropos, would be a bit too grandiose

I have a few pictures of my visit but I will not be posting them anywhere, I'm afraid. My employers might not like it very much if they knew where I have been, but it isn't against the law to cross into the West Bank (there are Christian holy sites such as Bethlehem there). However, the Israelis don't appreciate outsiders coming in. I understand their viewpoint, but I am concerned that if they were to read this I'd get on a blacklist. It's a chance I am unwilling to take.

What really brought it (this change) about? Probably sitting outside one evening on the Mount of Olives, drinking some mighty fine Palestinian craft beer!

Seriously though, there are a lot of courageous people, both Jewish/Israeli and Muslim/Palestinian who are working every day to bring peace to that troubled land. I had the pleasure of meeting some of them, and I wish them all well.

mh
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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Thedivingdog 0]

Great post. That was my feeling traveling in Jordan. Some people hate just for hates sake, but most people just want to live their life and provide for their families, on both sides..

Darius - It looks like you are pretty frustrated, and that's understandable. As an Israeli-American, my loyalties lie with Israel. Does that mean that I agree with everything that Israel does?? Absolutely not! There are extremists on both sides, and they are a very loud minority. If only the moderates could just sit down and talk, I think things would be different.

[Darius11 12]

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Seriously though, there are a lot of courageous people, both Jewish/Israeli and Muslim/Palestinian who are working every day to bring peace to that troubled land. I had the pleasure of meeting some of them, and I wish them all well.

I am just so happy about this i cant even put it in too words.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

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Darius - It looks like you are pretty frustrated, and that's understandable. As an Israeli-American, my loyalties lie with Israel. Does that mean that I agree with everything that Israel does?? Absolutely not! There are extremists on both sides, and they are a very loud minority. If only the moderates could just sit down and talk, I think things would be different.

I don’t think being Jewish, Muslim, or Israeli is a gaurntee that someones view is bias .
I think people who have been brain washed which can be as simple as only being introduced to one side of a story there whole life, and not willing to even contemplate the other side. We have that every where.


What frustrates me the most is people who are obviously not using logic or a fair standard to make up there mind but they pretend as if they are. There motivation is racism and has been but they are either liars or simply to dim to see themselves. For me its as simple as applying a standard if you can apply the standard regardless of religion or camaraderie and stay consistent then your fine, if you change you standard and cant not be consistent then one needs to look and see why.


For the record my statement applies to most on here, but not all. There are a few people on here who disagree with me strongly and might not even like me because of my views, but I respect them because they are fair even if we do not agree. They don’t make it black and white. I can follow there logic.

I also agree with you I think if politics, extremist, and bad governing weren’t apart of this, the people would have easily found a way to coexist.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Guest]

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Seriously though, there are a lot of courageous people, both Jewish/Israeli and Muslim/Palestinian who are working every day to bring peace to that troubled land. I had the pleasure of meeting some of them, and I wish them all well.

I am just so happy about this i cant even put it in too words.

Darius, I just decided to see for myself, and as I like to say, draw my own conclusions. No media filters, spin, lies or propaganda. I wish everyone in the world could see what I have seen. If there was so much truth out there that all the BS didn't stand a chance, peace would win out, but unfortunately, misery thrives on ignorance. The haters count on the masses being gullible, and swallowing the lies whole (I certainly did, and I don't think of myself as an easily manipulated rube). However, it is my opinion that it isn't the haters who are to blame. It is the rest of us who don't send the haters packing.

I will not admit to being stupid about this, because I'm not. Ignorant - hell yes. In my defense, however, I will say that the fog of lies obscures the truth, thus (as above) making it easy for those with an agenda to call the tune, but at least with respect to Palestine, I will dance to it no more.

I heard a few stories, told by third-party observers (such as Christian peace groups) who have been on the ground in the West Bank for years (Gaza is restricted; no one can go in there unless it's cleared by the Israeli government, whereas at the West Bank crossing closest to Ramallah, Europeans are simply waved through). One story that got my attention was about a Christian observer (a lawyer from Switzerland) who was brained by a settler who threw a rock at her, and needed seven stitches. Her crime? Walking Palestinian children to school (guess why). This event took place in 2006 (please see page 5), but it's happening again, right now.

I like to think that I am a highly educated man, but in some ways, my parochial American ways hindered me, as they do so many of my countrymen. I am not ashamed of this, but I do regret not having the courage of my convictions a long time ago (e.g., talk the talk, walk the walk) by going and seeing the situation for myself.

I anyone should be ashamed, it is the Israelis, for facilitating the disgraceful conduct of the settlers, going so far as to allow them to simply walk into a property, evict the rightful owners and claim it as their own. Not far from Ramallah in the West Bank, a French observer pointed a fortress-like structure out to me. I have no evidence to support his claim, but he told me that settlers had come in and forced the Palestinian residents off the property at gunpoint, then called the Israeli army for cover. Apparently there is some kind of statute which says that if settlers can secure a property in the West Bank for 72 hours, it's automatically theirs and will come under military protection. Once again, I do not know if this is true - I am still trying to determine the validity of this claim. Even so, I could see with my own eyes: high walls topped with barbed wire, and guard towers...it was astonishing. This is simply a gross injustice. I do not dispute the fact that Israel isn't going anywhere, but they (the settlers) are occupying lands that were not granted to them by the 1948 partition, and that is just plain wrong.

mh
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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[falxori 0]

I appreciate the fact that you were there for youreself but even being there doesn't mean you see the whole story. you see what the people your with want you to see.

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I heard a few stories, told by third-party observers

And you think these "observers" are unbiased? 99% of them come to the west bank with a VERY strong agenda. don't be fooled into thinking they're unbiased.

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Gaza is restricted; no one can go in there unless it's cleared by the Israeli government

Like any country controls its border. there is a border between Gaza and Egypt that is open. you can go in through there if you wish.

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going and seeing the situation for myself

Did you also go to the Israeli town of Sderot were rockets have been falling for years now?
Have you checked out the remains of blown up busses in Israel which were the cause of the security fence/wall people talk about so much?

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I anyone should be ashamed, it is the Israelis, for facilitating the disgraceful conduct of the settlers, going so far as to allow them to simply walk into a property, evict the rightful owners and claim it as their own.

I don't agree some of the things the settlers do but saying that they are "allowed to walk in and evict people" is simply not true. When setters build where they are not allowed they are evicted by the military

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but they (the settlers) are occupying lands that were not granted to them by the 1948 partition

There was no 1948 partition plan. The partition plan you are talking about was REJECTED by the Arabs who started a war (and lost). Does it seem logical to you that one can reject a plan, go to war, lose and then ask for the same terms? Would Israel have been offered the same plan had it lost the 1948 war?

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[dreamdancer 0]

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Did you also go to the Israeli town of Sderot were rockets have been falling for years now?

with how many fatalities?

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[Guest]

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I appreciate the fact that you were there for youreself but even being there doesn't mean you see the whole story. you see what the people your with want you to see.

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I was not led around by the nose, nor was I manipulated.

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I heard a few stories, told by third-party observers

And you think these "observers" are unbiased? 99% of them come to the west bank with a VERY strong agenda. don't be fooled into thinking they're unbiased.

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I see no reason to consider Swiss personnel (who are Christians) on the ground in the West Bank to be biased. It is my belief that their reputation for neutrality is what brought them there.

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Gaza is restricted; no one can go in there unless it's cleared by the Israeli government

Like any country controls its border. there is a border between Gaza and Egypt that is open. you can go in through there if you wish.

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It was just an offhand remark as a means of comparing the security situation to that of the West Bank.

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going and seeing the situation for myself

Did you also go to the Israeli town of Sderot were rockets have been falling for years now?

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No, I did not.

Have you checked out the remains of blown up busses in Israel which were the cause of the security fence/wall people talk about so much?

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No, I did not.

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I anyone should be ashamed, it is the Israelis, for facilitating the disgraceful conduct of the settlers, going so far as to allow them to simply walk into a property, evict the rightful owners and claim it as their own.

I don't agree some of the things the settlers do but saying that they are "allowed to walk in and evict people" is simply not true. When setters build where they are not allowed they are evicted by the military

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As I remarked with my caveat, this was anecdotal and I have no proof of the claim; however, YOUR remark is untrue. Witness all the illegal settlements - those constructed upon seized Palestinian lands in blatant contradiction of Israeli law.

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but they (the settlers) are occupying lands that were not granted to them by the 1948 partition

There was no 1948 partition plan. The partition plan you are talking about was REJECTED by the Arabs who started a war (and lost). Does it seem logical to you that one can reject a plan, go to war, lose and then ask for the same terms? Would Israel have been offered the same plan had it lost the 1948 war?

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What you say is true, , but where does that leave those who were not even born yet when their parents were being stupid? How many generations of Israelis and Palestinians must pay for the sins of their fathers before there is peace?

mh
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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[devildog 0]

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Did you also go to the Israeli town of Sderot were rockets have been falling for years now?

with how many fatalities?

Can I shoot at your house then as long as I don't kill you? Or maybe just one here or there?

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[dreamdancer 0]

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Did you also go to the Israeli town of Sderot were rockets have been falling for years now?

with how many fatalities?

Can I shoot at your house then as long as I don't kill you? Or maybe just one here or there?

so no fatalities?

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[Andy9o8 0]

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Did you also go to the Israeli town of Sderot were rockets have been falling for years now?

with how many fatalities?

Can I shoot at your house then as long as I don't kill you? Or maybe just one here or there?

so no fatalities?

Because you've got a reputation for "massaging" facts, I looked it up. It took me the same 30 seconds to check Google and Wiki as it would have taken you.

In about the past 10 years, about 10,000 rockets fired into southern Israel from Gaza.
It seems that that does not include however many rockets have been fired into northern Israel by Hezbollah in Lebanon.
Re: rockets from Gaza, as of (it seems) 2009 or 2010, 25 people killed, 9 of whom in Sderot; many more wounded casualties.

Opinions or ideology aside, facts are facts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel_in_2010

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2011

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&biw=1024&bih=574&noj=1&q=sderot+killed&oq=sderot+killed&aq=f&aqi=g-v1&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=50321l54051l0l54461l16l15l0l4l4l2l201l1290l6.4.1l11l0

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&biw=1024&bih=574&noj=1&q=sderot+fatalities&btnG=Search&oq=sderot+fatalities&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=691911l693832l0l695615l10l9l0l7l7l0l163l323l0.2l2l0

[dreamdancer 0]

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Did you also go to the Israeli town of Sderot were rockets have been falling for years now?

with how many fatalities?

Can I shoot at your house then as long as I don't kill you? Or maybe just one here or there?

so no fatalities?

Because you've got a reputation for "massaging" facts, I looked it up. It took me the same 30 seconds to check Google and Wiki as it would have taken you.

In about the past 10 years, about 10,000 rockets fired into southern Israel from Gaza.
It seems that that does not include however many rockets have been fired into northern Israel by Hezbollah in Lebanon.
Re: rockets from Gaza, as of (it seems) 2009 or 2010, 25 people killed, 9 of whom in Sderot; many more wounded casualties.

Opinions or ideology aside, facts are facts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel_in_2010

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2011

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&biw=1024&bih=574&noj=1&q=sderot+killed&oq=sderot+killed&aq=f&aqi=g-v1&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=50321l54051l0l54461l16l15l0l4l4l2l201l1290l6.4.1l11l0

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&biw=1024&bih=574&noj=1&q=sderot+fatalities&btnG=Search&oq=sderot+fatalities&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=691911l693832l0l695615l10l9l0l7l7l0l163l323l0.2l2l0

more died in car crashes so not much of a threat to national security...

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[falxori 0]

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I see no reason to consider Swiss personnel (who are Christians) on the ground in the West Bank to be biased. It is my belief that their reputation for neutrality is what brought them there.

I don't know that specific person. All I'm saying is that you should consider the possibility that what brought him there was bias. I doubt you'll find many unbiased people who go there to "observe".

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YOUR remark is untrue. Witness all the illegal settlements - those constructed upon seized Palestinian lands in blatant contradiction of Israeli law.

I think your comment contradict your previous statement. If they're actions are against Israeli law (which in some cases it is), how can you say that the military protects them? When they build where they shouldn't, they are evicted. Again, I'm not saying there is no unauthorized building. I'm saying that when it's not authorized, it is usually followed by a court order and they are removed.

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What you say is true, , but where does that leave those who were not even born yet when their parents were being stupid? How many generations of Israelis and Palestinians must pay for the sins of their fathers before there is peace?

Well if my father decided to be stupid, go to Vegas and spend all of his money, I will pay for his "sins" too, right? or should I blame the casino and ask for my money back?
It will change when they "accept" the fact that their fathers were wrong and try something different.
Accepting Israel's right to exist would be a nice first step.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Thedivingdog 0]

Wow dude, you are so obtuse it boggles the mind. I would love to see you live under a constant threat of missiles and say "meh, more people died in car crashes, so no biggy"

I would like to add one more thing. I have been there, I have seen these things, and I try to understand both sides, albeit not always successfully. Here is one standard that I can apply to all. Stop teaching younger generations to hate. Palestinian school books, tv, magazines, etc. are blatantly anti Israeli. I have seen pamphlets with cartoons depicting Israel covered in blood with my own eyes. Google it and see for yourself. I have never though, in 14 years of schooling, seen something remotely similar in the Israeli education system. I'm sure the odd right wing extremist group has such things, but nothing in the main stream education system is anything like what I have seen being taught to Palestinian children. As long as future generations are taught to hate, this will never end.

[kelpdiver 2]

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What you say is true, , but where does that leave those who were not even born yet when their parents were being stupid? How many generations of Israelis and Palestinians must pay for the sins of their fathers before there is peace?

mh
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[dreamdancer 0]

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Wow dude, you are so obtuse it boggles the mind. I would love to see you live under a constant threat of missiles and say "meh, more people died in car crashes, so no biggy".

the ira bombed and bombed the uk - we didn't go in and flatten londonderry as the israelis have done to the palestinians...

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[dreamdancer 0]

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Accepting Israel's right to exist would be a nice first step.

as would be accepting the right to exist for palestine...

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[Thedivingdog 0]

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the ira bombed and bombed the uk - we didn't go in and flatten londonderry as the israelis have done to the palestinians...

And you're proud of this?!?! I will never understand your kind. How many English lives would have been saved if you had stepped up and done what needed to be done. How many lives were saved by dropping 2 A-bombs on Japan?
Oh, and just for the record, Israel doesn't flatten anything. If they do, why haven't they dropped an A bomb on all of gaza?? Surgical strikes are aimed at known terrorists. Do innocent people get caught in the cross fire? Yes of course, and it's a damn shame each time it happens. Does Israel aim at civilians on purpose? Absolutely not, and remember, I've been on the ground, I've seen it with my own eyes. Have you? Do the Palestinians aim at civilians? Well, you already know the answer to that one don't you..

[DanJohnson 0]

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. How many lives were saved by dropping 2 A-bombs on Japan?

No one knows. We do have a pretty good estimate of how many were exterminated.

***Oh, and just for the record, Israel doesn't flatten anything. If they do, why haven't they dropped an A bomb on all of gaza??

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Worried about their own fallout?

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[DanJohnson 0]

Accepting Israel's right to exist would be a nice first step.

[billvon 2,406]

> Wow dude, you are so obtuse it boggles the mind.

Your one warning. Cut it out.