AAAAHHH!! SOCIALISM IS EVERYWHERE!!

[SpeedRacer 1]

There's been a lot of people going around who seem to believe that socialism is wealth redistribution. In other words, the government takes money (generated in the marketplace) away from people & corporations and redistributes it, and that (according to them) is socialism.

But it isn't. Socialism is collective or state control over the means of production. Look it up.

Governments provide certain services, such as military, police, roads, post office, etc.

So if the government controls the means of production of those services, then doesn't that mean that anyone who works for the government is engaging in a socialist activity??

So isn't there some irony in a person who loudly denounces the evils of socialism, and then encourages his children to join the military?

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[captain_stan 0]

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There's been a lot of people

You might earn more credibility by addressing them directly.

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isn't there some irony

The real irony is that you don't seem to recognize that the takover of GM and the subsidization of oil companies, agriculture, and ethanol production are examples of "state control over the means of production," and that you don't consider these acts, which economically favor or punish specific groups of people, to be redistrubution.

edit for spelling

[SpeedRacer 1]

OK then, if you're right, then that is just a few more examples of socialism to add to the list.

Even still, isn't it still true that any government-provided services are examples of socialism?

In the example you discuss, the government is exerting partial control over production, but the actual production is being carried out by private corporations.

But in the case of government services, it is the state that is actually doing the producing. Isn't that even MORE blatantly socialist?

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[captain_stan 0]

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Even still, isn't it still true that any government-provided services are examples of socialism?

Providing a service, like educating students or delivering the mail, is distinguished from the production of goods, but I expect the definitions of capitalism and socialism can be debated endlessly.

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carried out by private corporations.

Subject to "collective or state control," by your definition of socialism.

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But in the case of government services, it is the state that is actually doing the producing. Isn't that even MORE blatantly socialist?

More, less--what's the difference? I'm not sure that a society is disqualified as capatalistic just because it has publicly funded schools or military. But one that uses taxpayers' money to enhance or discourage industrial production and that rewards or punishes these producers certaily has accepted a degree of socialism and does indeed practice the redistribution of wealth.

Edit for spelling.

[airdvr 203]

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So isn't there some irony in a person who loudly denounces the evils of socialism, and then encourages his children to join the military?

Key word being join. It's a voluntary thing. In a socialist society not so much.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[Amazon 7]

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There's been a lot of people going around who seem to believe that socialism is wealth redistribution. In other words, the government takes money (generated in the marketplace) away from people & corporations and redistributes it, and that (according to them) is socialism.

But it isn't. Socialism is collective or state control over the means of production. Look it up.

Governments provide certain services, such as military, police, roads, post office, etc.

So if the government controls the means of production of those services, then doesn't that mean that anyone who works for the government is engaging in a socialist activity??

So isn't there some irony in a person who loudly denounces the evils of socialism, and then encourages his children to join the military?

I like those Tea Baggers who are too fucking stupid to realize where their welfare and SS checks are coming from when its pointed out to them

[billvon 2,792]

>Key word being join. It's a voluntary thing. In a socialist society not so much.

By that measure, we have gone from a socialist society to a capitalist one in the past six decades.

[SivaGanesha 2]

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There's been a lot of people going around who seem to believe that socialism is wealth redistribution. In other words, the government takes money (generated in the marketplace) away from people & corporations and redistributes it, and that (according to them) is socialism.

But it isn't. Socialism is collective or state control over the means of production. Look it up.

Governments provide certain services, such as military, police, roads, post office, etc.

So if the government controls the means of production of those services, then doesn't that mean that anyone who works for the government is engaging in a socialist activity??

So isn't there some irony in a person who loudly denounces the evils of socialism, and then encourages his children to join the military?

It seems to me that socialism can refer to any system where the government has a very high degree of power. What the government does with that power--in theory or in practice--is another matter. For example, both fascism and communism are examples of socialist systems because they both propose giving the government significant power. However--in theory at least--fascism and communism are exact opposites in terms of what the government is supposed to do with that power.

In a capitalist system, the role of government is much more limited, and power is supposed to reside mostly in the hands of private individuals, companies, institutions, and organizations.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[dreamdancer 0]

fascism is a race based ideology...

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[quade 4]

The amount of misunderstanding about the definitions of words used in this tread is amazing.

Seriously guys, open up a couple of books.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[SpeedRacer 1]

Isn't the USA's system an AMALGAM of capitalism and socialism?

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[captain_stan 0]

***Isn't the USA's system an AMALGAM of capitalism and socialism?***

Ding ding ding! We have a winner.

[SpeedRacer 1]

If this is the case, then much of the political bickering is over how to adjust that amalgam.

So why does Obama get labeled as an extreme leftist socialist, and the Republicans say that they're against socialism? Aren't they actually pretty close (the mainstream Dems & Reps), and they're just arguing over relatively minor adjustments?

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[Amazon 7]

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If this is the case, then much of the political bickering is over how to adjust that amalgam.

So why does Obama get labeled as an extreme leftist socialist, and the Republicans say that they're against socialism? Aren't they actually pretty close (the mainstream Dems & Reps), and they're just arguing over relatively minor adjustments?

The Dems support entitlement programs that help many millions of Americans by giving them the ability to live above the poverty level found in many stratified societies with a few wealthy people and 90% living in squalor.
The GOP supports entitlement programs that help the few at the top who own the corporations that benefit from the massive amounts spent to subsidize the military - industrial complex that a Republican warned us about back in 1960 as he was leaving office.
They keep the attention of most of their followers from seeing the disparity of the very few who are benefiting from that government corporate welfare by latching onto a ultra conservative religious social agenda to roll back any progress that women and the poor have made since WWII.

[SpeedRacer 1]

Well, that's one opinion. Someone might counter that some of the programs intended to reduce poverty actually wind up subsidizing it.

But the point I am trying to make is that since we live in an amalgam of socialism and capitalism, is it really accurate to depict one candidate as an ABSOLUTE SOCIALIST and the opposing candidate as ABSOLUTELY AGAINST SOCIALISM IN ANY WAY? I am talking about mainstream Democrat & Republican candidates here.

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[jclalor 12]

Do you have an example of a pure capitalist country?

[captain_stan 0]

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So why does Obama get labeled as an extreme leftist socialist

Maybe because he's about one click farther left on the political spectrum than are the Republicans. More amazing though is the Democrats' response when he's called out on this: "The Republicans did it too," or "they're just as bad as we are!"

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Aren't they actually pretty close (the mainstream Dems & Reps), and they're just arguing over relatively minor adjustments?

And they're also pretty close in the degree of damage they have done to the USA. How anybody can support either party is beyond me.

I can already hear those keys clicking.

[Amazon 7]

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Well, that's one opinion. Someone might counter that some of the programs intended to reduce poverty actually wind up subsidizing it.

But the point I am trying to make is that since we live in an amalgam of socialism and capitalism, is it really accurate to depict one candidate as an ABSOLUTE SOCIALIST and the opposing candidate as ABSOLUTELY AGAINST SOCIALISM IN ANY WAY? I am talking about mainstream Democrat & Republican candidates here.

Of course it is. The GOP and their propaganda machine have spent the last 30 years demonizing liberals as so called socialists or communists. All the while very large numbers of them would find it very very hard to give up their various government subsidies... like the Tea Baggers on SS by the millions or others who get their government checks monthly.

PSSSST hate to break their tea bag for them but if you are getting a government check of any kind... you might just be a socialist!!!

[captain_stan 0]

Do you have an example of a pure capitalist country?

Did I SAY "pure capitalist country?"

Do your own research and make your own assertion.

[Amazon 7]

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Do you have an example of a pure capitalist country?

How about the USA back in the good old days of the robber barons and trusts, such a great time to live... when the going wage was .10 a day and thousands of children were sacrificed to those who profited from those great working conditions.

[captain_stan 0]

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How about the USA back in the good old days of the robber barons and trusts, such a great time to live... when the going wage was .10 a day and thousands of children were sacrificed to those who profited from those great working conditions.

You haven't given labor unions the credit they deserve as an important part of the capitalistic system. Safer working conditions and better pay evolved into the post-war era even at a time when the government had much less control over private enterprise.

[Amazon 7]

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How about the USA back in the good old days of the robber barons and trusts, such a great time to live... when the going wage was .10 a day and thousands of children were sacrificed to those who profited from those great working conditions.

You haven't given labor unions the credit they deserve as an important part of the capitalistic system. Safer working conditions and better pay evolved into the post-war era even at a time when the government had much less control over private enterprise.

The unions grew as a counter to the robber barons.. and not without great suffering and bloodshed. But that was then, and today they are being systematically destroyed by the current crop of robber barons.. and their bought and paid for minions. The rest of the right wing nutters are too fucking stupid to realize WHY the USA has the working conditions we have today... but those are being degraded and rolled back or just plain ignored. The coal indsutry is a good case in point.

The right wing has been led to believe that unions are just communist organizations that take from their hallowed masters and do nothing for the union members anyway.

[captain_stan 0]

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they are being systematically destroyed by the current crop of robber barons

In 25 years of union membership, my experience has been that the unions are systematically destroying themselves, just like the rest of middle class America.

Their effort, like yours, in assigning blame and vilifying others has not been productive. But good luck with that "hate thing" you got goin' on there--you're really pretty good at it.

[jclalor 12]

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In 25 years of union membership, my experience has been that the unions are systematically destroying themselves, just like the rest of middle class America.

I see your a very principled man, the irony meter is through the roof. You got yours and now it's time for a change.

[captain_stan 0]

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the irony meter is through the roof.

The real irony is that you pretend to know something about my working career and my union membership.

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You got yours and now it's time for a change.

Yeah, I got mine and it's nothing close to what most people would want. As far as change goes, it was time for that about 20 years ago, but our union leaders stuck to their guns and took us right over the cliff. I had saved enough money to finance my own retirement, so I volunteered to give up my job 7 years short of retirement age. The good news is that by doing so, some younger person with a family was able to keep on working after the big lay-off which wouldn't have affected me. And I'm not even gonna' get into the screwing I got from my brethren on the way out.

Now exactly WTF do you know about me?