flashvortx 0 #76 February 24, 2011 QuoteIt is hard to know what hell really is. My belief is that those who have chosen to reject God are better off there in an environment they can comprehend than they would be in heaven ... Hell is defined as a life apart from God. We are quite literally in hell right now. It's not the hell that I fear the most, but it does fit the definition. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flashvortx 0 #77 February 24, 2011 QuoteSuit your self but you'll be waiting a long time. Religion just isn't worth it. I understand that. There are too many people out there claiming Christianity but living the same lives as everyone else. That is the specific reason I don't going around proclaiming that I'm a follower of Christ (note the difference). I'm not nearly mature and developed enough and I don't want to tarnish the name. It's something that I can feel is starting to change in my life and I get the feeling something big is about to happen in the next few years. However, you can dislike religion because it certainly has a bad name nowadays. But if you look at the reasonability behind God, and get into the Bible and follow what Christ taught, it's a completely different experience. And that's not meant to say I am a strict follower of Christ. I strive to be but I'm not at that point in life yet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flashvortx 0 #78 February 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteI was just saying that everything that we know requires a creator. Who created the oceans, the dirt, the distant planets and solar systems? There are a lot of things that we see and use that have no known creator. I don't think that the fact that they are complicated, working objects means that they must have a designer/creator. To me, that's where the "that's just the way it is" fails. But again, the idea of "God" seems to be very similar to my "I don't know." Well, I believe that's all spelled out in Genesis. God created the dirt, the planets, and solar systems. My favorite part of all, on day two, He created the skies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Meso 38 #79 February 24, 2011 QuoteI don't know how you got the idea, but I absolutely don't think that time is in a single universal measurement. I started learning about time when I was like 10 with Bill Nye the Science Guy. Obviously, I've delved deeper since. So by your way of looking at it, there is no such thing as time and I was created at age 23 and have not moved forward. Time exists but it is relative. There isn't an absolute that I know of. My point with the time debate was that you implied that infinity can only exist outside of earth time. You mentioned that God exists in a world that isn't prisoner to our concept of time and thus how he could have always existed but anything else needs a creator. What I'm saying to you is that if this realm where God exists can exist, whatever form it may be, if infinity can exist there for God then particles could exist there with the same rule (without a creator). Furthermore since there is no single universal measurement and it's all relative you may not believe that infinity is real on earth, but since space doesn't play by the same rules. Infinity may well exist in space, and if you agree that infinity is real, then something can exist from nothing. Quote I don't know where you're going with the particles, but yes I know that electrons seem to move around randomly, and that certain elemental particles have been teleported. There's a lot going on out there, but again the only constant is God's word. My point with the particles is an essential one. You base your ideas on what is possible and what is not possible by looking at relativity. You have the idea that creation had to follow these rules too, that earth now exists and nothing just happens randomly without purpose. Though quantum mechanics show that particles do exist in a random form without purpose at it's lowest levels. This would mean not everything requires a set path to exist. At the very core level, randomness does indeed exist. And considering the universe was likely a very small mass, the creation could have been random. QuoteMorals don't dictate what we do. I've known that steeling was immoral for as long as I can remember, but I've stolen a candy bar or two when I was a kid. That's where free will is. I knew it was wrong, but took the candy. This highlights what I am saying probably better than it does with your theory. The reason you stole the candy bar was because you're aware of the implications to the other party involved (empathy an sympathy), you realized stealing the candy wasn't going to hurt anyone, you knew that it would probably not be noticed, so you went ahead. Which is why petty theft is so common. Why do people tend to murder less than they steal? Well probably the jail sentences for starters, but because they realize murder will have far worse effect on the involved party and those around them. Knowing right and wrong is just knowing what can have a negative impact on others and what can't. Acting on your desires is then decided by how harsh the opposite party is affected. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,651 #80 February 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteYes, it is a belief. However, it is based on scientific fact. If God is defined as something outside of our laws/rules/whatever, . That is so totally lame. Your philosophy has a serious FLAW and you can't get around it that way.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shotgun 1 #81 February 24, 2011 Quote Well, I believe that's all spelled out in Genesis. The Bible was written by man. Writing something down does not make it true. Quote God created the dirt, the planets, and solar systems. Well, we don't know that. So we don't know that everything that we see and use was created by some other being. Therefore, we don't know that there is a "creator." Quote My favorite part of all, on day two, He created the skies. Well, I will agree that the skies are pretty damn cool. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flashvortx 0 #82 February 24, 2011 [Quote] What I'm saying to you is that if this realm where God exists can exist, whatever form it may be, if infinity can exist there for God then particles could exist there with the same rule (without a creator).[/Quote] If it’s a completely separate realm, we can’t make any assumptions on what goes on there. Infinity might not even be a concept there, and particles might not even exist. All I was saying is that God cannot be part of our realm. [Quote] Furthermore since there is no single universal measurement and it's all relative you may not believe that infinity is real on earth, but since space doesn't play by the same rules. Infinity may well exist in space, and if you agree that infinity is real, then something can exist from nothing. [/Quote] It doesn’t play by the same rules, but it does play by rules. I don’t agree that infinity is real in our dimension. [Quote] Though quantum mechanics show that particles do exist in a random form without purpose at its lowest levels. [/Quote] Is it not possible that with our current knowledge level, it only seems random? They are constantly learning more and more and changing what we currently think to be fact. Particles can come and go, transport, time travel and do whatever else they like. [Quote] The reason you stole the candy bar was because you're aware of the implications to the other party involved (empathy an sympathy), you realized stealing the candy wasn't going to hurt anyone, you knew that it would probably not be noticed, so you went ahead.[/Quote] Whether you realize that or not, you still know it is wrong. I think it’s a simple argument that people know that certain things are wrong. It doesn’t matter what the penalty or reward is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flashvortx 0 #83 February 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteYes, it is a belief. However, it is based on scientific fact. If God is defined as something outside of our laws/rules/whatever, . That is so totally lame. Your philosophy has a serious FLAW and you can't get around it that way. What's the FLAW? I'll be happy to defend it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flashvortx 0 #84 February 24, 2011 [Quote] The Bible was written by man. Writing something down does not make it true.[/Quote] The Bible was written over several centuries by 40 authors. Most lived in different eras and locations. The idea that a book that size could be written over so many years by so many different people that had no knowledge of one another and be consistent is one you can’t overlook. The Bible was written by man, but is the word of God. [Quote] Well, we don't know that. So we don't know that everything that we see and use was created by some other being. Therefore, we don't know that there is a "creator."[/Quote] The dirt, planets, and solar systems go hand in hand with the creation of the universe. They basically are the universe. What I was saying is that God created all of that (possibly with a very large bang), and that everything that has been made since then has required a creator. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Meso 38 #85 February 24, 2011 QuoteIf it’s a completely separate realm, we can’t make any assumptions on what goes on there. Infinity might not even be a concept there, and particles might not even exist. All I was saying is that God cannot be part of our realm. I hate how religions turn to that. Basically you're just saying what most Christians who can't prove their points say. "God requires faith, he doesn't need logic or physics or science... Just faith", in which case you could have said that in the beginning. It's the trump card, there's no way to dispute it because it can't be proved or disproved. At the same time though, it doesn't make God any more likely to exist. Faeries, unicorns, elves, pixies- They all have an equal chance of existing if you're to use that pattern of thought. It makes whatever anyone want to exist, exist. They are part of a different realm but have their presence here on earth etc (Same as with God/Jesus) I see faith as complete weakness, faith is nothing, yet faith is everything. Faith is making whatever you want to exist, exist. And yet since it doesn't follow logic, it can't be disproved. QuoteIt doesn’t play by the same rules, but it does play by rules. / They are constantly learning more and more and changing what we currently think to be fact. What you're saying can be applied to my side of the debate too. No one knows all the rules of space, but if God's alternate realm can be host to certain characteristics then space could too since we don't understand it fully. QuoteWhether you realize that or not, you still know it is wrong. I think it’s a simple argument that people know that certain things are wrong. It doesn’t matter what the penalty or reward is. What evidence do you have to support that idea? You didn't offer a rebuttal, again. What hints at anything other than us deciding our morals on what we do affecting other people. I'd like to know what flaws my concept has besides the flaw that it goes against your idea of God. It makes a lot more sense given we know we exist and we are aware that we make decisions. Are there examples of things that are immoral that don't affect other people? I also suggest you just watch this Scott Clifton video on morals: http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=11161 He addresses what I am saying in the same sense but in a lot more detail and far more articulated. To be honest I was looking for a video I have seen from him before on the writings of the bible to combat your comment on the writing of the bible. But came across this by mistake and I find it interesting that he follows the same view I put forward. (Though I will continue to try to find the other video for the next post when I get time) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nigel99 150 #86 February 24, 2011 QuoteIsn't String Theory an attempt to solve Einstein’s problem? Maybe it’s very complex and can’t be solved in a lifetime, or many lifetimes. Either way, at one point in time people knew the Earth was flat and at another, people knew that the Earth was the center of the universe. The way we know the world changes constantly and God’s word stays the same. I have no problem with you believing in God that is a personal decision and honestly nobody but you has the right to question that. However if you are truly interested in finding the truth, your own statement above highlights self-deception. As you say at one point in time people knew xyz. Exactly the same goes for God, at one point in Time God was the only rational explanation for the unexplainable. Can you honestly say that you have looked at the evidence that the modern scientific method is producing and not question your beliefs? I think that it is beyond dispute that Genesis (God's word) version of the creation story has been proven to not be correct. Do you eat bacon, where synthetic fibres, eat cheeseburgers, work on a Saturday? If you do any of those things you either don't believe that God's word is unchangeable or are sinning and rationalising it. My guess (putting on mind-readers hat) is that you rationalise those aspects of the bible, along the lines of "times change and that was relevant then". To be honest with you I think people get to hung up on the evolution debate where there is alot that is still unknown. Quantum physics, general physics and very importantly genetics provide a constrant stream of data that should at the very least make you examine your beliefs. The area that I find most interesting is sociology and human behaviour, perhaps it is because my brother is a professor of Philosophy. Taking a long hard look at why "everyone" in the south of the USA is a Baptist and "everyone" in Iran is a Muslim for a start - what rational explanation is there from a religious viewpoint? Why are Americans now God's chosen people being christians - when did the "unchanging God" turn his back on the jews of the Bible?Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Meso 38 #87 February 24, 2011 QuoteThe Bible was written over several centuries by 40 authors. Most lived in different eras and locations. The idea that a book that size could be written over so many years by so many different people that had no knowledge of one another and be consistent is one you can’t overlook. The Bible was written by man, but is the word of God. Whoa Nelly, stop right there... QuoteSo many different people that had no knowledge of one another From what I understand this is extremely incorrect. I recall that the writers of the bible all wrote what they did from looking at the scriptures of the other writers involved and evolved their books. Much like me writing a story, passing it on to someone else, them adding to the story and passing it along to their friend to write the next, I'm fairly certain I recall historic facts pointing to that. I must admit I`m unsure as to the exact details and I'm struggling to find the single source that addressed it in it's entirety where I heard the details. But I'm almost certain that the authors definitely didn't all write the same types of things by chance. I'm fairly certain there is consensus with the authors using the previous and other writers stories as reference. Some of the Christian arguments I have read have tried to go along the lines of "They may have been acquainted but they may not have known what the other was writing". Yeah that seems very likely. Though this is a topic I`m not 100% sure on, if someone can show me some studies that state that the writers had no previous knowledge of the other writers work I`ll gladly read it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nigel99 150 #88 February 24, 2011 QuoteI see faith as complete weakness, faith is nothing, yet faith is everything. Faith is making whatever you want to exist, exist. And yet since it doesn't follow logic, it can't be disproved. Not sure where you are going with this comment? I don't agree on a certain level and it could be that it is simply not what you mean't. Faith is very important. If you can't accept certain basic premise that underline your belief structure and question absolutely everything at its deepest level you are not going to be able to progress. Is it legitimate to use the bible to argue against it? I will anyway QuoteNow faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see Some people choose to put their faith in God, others put their faith in science. Like it or not there are aspects of science that "we hope will be proven oneday" and that is what many of us base our belief systems on. At a personal level I believe there is more evidence that the God of the bible does not exist, and so I have staked my eternity on that assumption.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites doughboyshred 0 #89 February 24, 2011 Quote Quote Says the same thing that has been evident since the concept of his being began... If he does exist, he just doesn't give a damn about anything other than being praised, egotistical may be the right word to describe him. He claims to have the power to do anything, yet he is quite content with watching his beloved 'children' be raped and killed. Well I guess it makes sense given he is also okay with sending them to eternal damnation just because they feel there isn't enough evidence to worship him. God is quite clearly one for promoting being gullible, so much so that he makes sure most of his so-called miracles are easily explained with logic and alternate circumstances. Nothing like tricking your beloved children into an eternity of suffering right? That seems good punishment for not accepting a far fetched claim. The irony is this: When God lets someone die or be raped, the Christians will say that it was God's will and that God doesn't intervene, rather allowing humans to face their own actions and suffer from the acts of others around them. Yet when they win some money or fall pregnant... God has suddenly intervened and provided them with that blessing. Apparently he doesn't care about blessing people with an escape from death though, especially given that there's no change in death ratios between religions. In the assumption that God did exist. He would be a bully, unjust, egotistical, spiteful, jealous (self proclaimed), sly, underhanded, vengeful and malevolent dictator. Makes me glad I don't believe in his existence, I'd feel like a total ass falling inline for someone with those characteristics, nevermind idolizing and worshipping him. Very true. Anyway today is not a good day to be in SC having had my fair dose before 8am at home. Wife was watching some animal show with the kids in bed. As I left the room she said "it is amazing how God made them like that. Anyone who believes God doesn't exist is an idiot". Nice one, very fucking Christian thank-you. You make me swear I will keep my beliefs to myself and not tell the kids; and then tell them yourself anyway putting your own spin on it. Then you go on to cause that kind of shit. Honestly at least in SC you can log-offIf God did exist he would not only be everything you have said but a grade A wanker as well. You're doing your children a disservice by not presenting them with your opinion on the subject. Your wife is doing you a disservice by indoctrinating your children. Sorry to hear that you have to deal with that shit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Meso 38 #90 February 24, 2011 Where I was going with that statement was nowhere really, I was stating how untouchable faith is because it's something that's immune to logic. Faith is not important. It is the opposite of science, I don't see how you can say people put their faith in science, they don't- not typically. A scientist will attempt to prove something, if science was about faith there would be no need to prove anything, a scientist would propose a theory and that would be that. Instead he will aim to prove that theory. I have no 'faith in science', if a theory lacks logical support or evidence I`m not going to believe it to be true. With God on the other hand it's a very different matter. With God it's more like me saying that unicorns poop rainbows and that is where rainbows come from, and the existence of rainbows is the evidence to my proposition. And then when you say it's the light reflecting, I tell you it was the unicorn who created those particles that the light is reflecting off. There is no evidence to support the presence of God, it's just assumed that because there's no 100% proven method of creation that there must be. I'm Atheist but I don't rule out the existence of a God completely, It's just soooooooo small that it's pointless to even consider (and no that's not Agnostic). God, Easter Bunny, Father Christmas, Unicorns, Faeries... They're all exactly on the same page when it comes to evidence of creation. The only difference between the others and God, is that someone decided to write about God. I'd be glad to change my belief should any evidence actually show, and not require me to have blind faith. I hate the reality of death as an Atheist, but the truth is harsh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites virgin-burner 1 #91 February 24, 2011 Quote Yes, it is a belief. However, it is based on scientific fact. I've loved science my whole life and still enjoy learning about it and that has only strengthened my belief in God. Even with a somewhat scientific mind, God does make sense. scientific facts!? delusional, yes! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,651 #92 February 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteYes, it is a belief. However, it is based on scientific fact. If God is defined as something outside of our laws/rules/whatever, . That is so totally lame. Your philosophy has a serious FLAW and you can't get around it that way. What's the FLAW? I'll be happy to defend it. The flaw is defending an inconsistency in your own logic ("Everything does need a designer") in support of your beliefs by saying logic doesn't apply at the most fundamental level of your beliefs.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites normiss 622 #93 February 24, 2011 We don't know what "God's" word is. What you read as "God's" word is mans interpretation of what "He" said. It's also been changed numerous times since then. Do you read Hebrew? Aramaic? Greek? Have you read all 66-something interpretations of The Law, The Prophets, and The Writings? The TNK had an interesting journey around that time. If "He" were here today, he'd be Baker Acted. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Meso 38 #94 February 24, 2011 I seemed to have missed this part. QuoteHell is defined as a life apart from God. We are quite literally in hell right now. It's not the hell that I fear the most, but it does fit the definition. Earlier on in this thread I think it was I pasted quotes from the bible in regards to the description of hell. I'm not sure where you get your definition of hell, but the hell as defined in the bible is more often than not referred to as a pit of flames located in the center of the earth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,651 #95 February 24, 2011 QuoteI seemed to have missed this part. QuoteHell is defined as a life apart from God. We are quite literally in hell right now. It's not the hell that I fear the most, but it does fit the definition. Earlier on in this thread I think it was I pasted quotes from the bible in regards to the description of hell. I'm not sure where you get your definition of hell, but the hell as defined in the bible is more often than not referred to as a pit of flames located in the center of the earth. Selecting parts of scripture to believe as fundamental truth (and try to force on other people) and parts to conveniently ignore is par for the course among the religious.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites virgin-burner 1 #96 February 24, 2011 Quote Quote I seemed to have missed this part. Quote Hell is defined as a life apart from God. We are quite literally in hell right now. It's not the hell that I fear the most, but it does fit the definition. Earlier on in this thread I think it was I pasted quotes from the bible in regards to the description of hell. I'm not sure where you get your definition of hell, but the hell as defined in the bible is more often than not referred to as a pit of flames located in the center of the earth. Selecting parts of scripture to believe as fundamental truth (and try to force on other people) and parts to conveniently ignore is par for the course among the religious. that, and other "behaviourism".. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites maadmax 0 #97 February 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteIt is hard to know what hell really is. My belief is that those who have chosen to reject God are better off there in an environment they can comprehend than they would be in heaven "The mind is its own place, and in itself Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven." +1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lurch 0 #98 February 24, 2011 "Hell is defined as a life apart from God. We are quite literally in hell right now." I love this argument. It implies a certain wonderful freedom from that all important sense of religious dread and drama so many seem to feed on and seem determined to spread to others. What if I happen to be dread-proof? What if I am neither impressed with the threats of punishment nor motivated by promises of reward? What if I just don't fear? What if I LIKE hell? What if my idea of paradise is an eternity without a god? With nothing to be afraid of? Its how I've lived my life already, anyway, and its largely been a life full of wonder, adventure, friends and laughter. If thats hell, I'll take it. People impressed or intimidated by the concept of "hell" lack imagination and go entertainingly ballistic when they find the fundamentals of their beliefs they do not question just stubbornly fail to apply to certain people. Even if you grant hell a literal definition of burning torture, lets take an extreme example of a highly developed masochist that gets off on pain and torture. There can be no hell for that person. That person is free, even from "god". You can't torture someone who enjoys it. It just frustrates the hell out of the torturer and the supposedly tortured victim winds up laughing their ass off and experiencing great pleasure. Hmmm. It seems there is a motivation problem here. What are you gonna do now, -not- torture them and say "There! serves you right, you villain, now suffer, dammit!" Oooo, scary. Now, see, this is where a little sophistication and experience pays off. I'm not a masochist, I don't get off on pain, but I've been hurt before and am not intimidated by it. I recently got my hand severely burned by oil spatter while cooking. Just a "pop", and suddenly one finger was half coated in 400 degree oil. About 1/4 the skin on that finger promptly melted off. "Ah shit" I thought, "better get cold water right now cause in a few seconds this is REALLY going to hurt." Determined not to let this freak me out or really bother me I just dunked the hand in cold water, then proceeded to finish cooking my damn dinner thinking "Yup, that hurts like hell alright, oh well." Then I started grinning. It was really no big deal once you get your mind around it. Fuck it. Its just a burn, not the end of the world, not a crisis, no drama needed. All part of the adventure we call life. Everything I know about stoicism I learned from the Japanese. When threats of pain or torture or "separation from god" whatever thats supposed to mean, don't hold any power over the individual, the individual cannot be punished. Oops! Whats god gonna do now, come up with something even more vindictive to punish me for exempting myself from his little system? The whole thing makes no sense, but I do enjoy watching the religious play their little games talking about hell. Its like a cartoon and I deal with it with the same indulgence any polite adult does towards the natural imaginative ignorance of children. "Yes I'm very scared of your god's scary superpowers, now go play." If this comes across as condescending as all hell, its supposed to be. Its satire, intended to communicate what religious certainty looks like to me, endless pompous asses stating their opinions as if they were facts. Its not nearly as condescending as having some twat telling me he knows I'm gonna experience torture forever because I don't buy into his belief system claiming that through this "god" he understands the deepest mysteries and motivations of the universe and I don't. Believers know exactly as much as I do about the greater scheme of things: Nothing. At least the nonbelievers are free from the delusion that they know how it all works and why. Nonbelievers are honest. We know that we don't know what or how or why everything exists, we're comfortable with that and totally unafraid to admit it. -BLive and learn... or die, and teach by example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites maadmax 0 #99 February 24, 2011 I agree with your statement. For me seeking God is not about avoiding hell. Its about finding Truth, and in the process discovering the truth of who I am. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stevebabin 0 #100 February 24, 2011 Quote In the assumption that God did exist. He would be a bully, unjust, egotistical, spiteful, jealous (self proclaimed), sly, underhanded, vengeful and malevolent dictator. Makes me glad I don't believe in his existence, I'd feel like a total ass falling inline for someone with those characteristics, nevermind idolizing and worshipping him. The difference in our viewpoints appears to be that you assume God is the cause of our suffering. The plan of God, as I understand it, is that He created us with free will. We have the capability of knowing Him through faith and self denial or we can set ourselves up as god in His place. We are the cause of our suffering, God provides a means of escape. If your imaginary god is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, then he gets the blame for the bad as well as the good. Can't have it both ways... If "We won because god was on our side!", then "We lost because Jesus made me fumble!""Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings." "Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next Page 4 of 9 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Shotgun 1 #81 February 24, 2011 Quote Well, I believe that's all spelled out in Genesis. The Bible was written by man. Writing something down does not make it true. Quote God created the dirt, the planets, and solar systems. Well, we don't know that. So we don't know that everything that we see and use was created by some other being. Therefore, we don't know that there is a "creator." Quote My favorite part of all, on day two, He created the skies. Well, I will agree that the skies are pretty damn cool. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flashvortx 0 #82 February 24, 2011 [Quote] What I'm saying to you is that if this realm where God exists can exist, whatever form it may be, if infinity can exist there for God then particles could exist there with the same rule (without a creator).[/Quote] If it’s a completely separate realm, we can’t make any assumptions on what goes on there. Infinity might not even be a concept there, and particles might not even exist. All I was saying is that God cannot be part of our realm. [Quote] Furthermore since there is no single universal measurement and it's all relative you may not believe that infinity is real on earth, but since space doesn't play by the same rules. Infinity may well exist in space, and if you agree that infinity is real, then something can exist from nothing. [/Quote] It doesn’t play by the same rules, but it does play by rules. I don’t agree that infinity is real in our dimension. [Quote] Though quantum mechanics show that particles do exist in a random form without purpose at its lowest levels. [/Quote] Is it not possible that with our current knowledge level, it only seems random? They are constantly learning more and more and changing what we currently think to be fact. Particles can come and go, transport, time travel and do whatever else they like. [Quote] The reason you stole the candy bar was because you're aware of the implications to the other party involved (empathy an sympathy), you realized stealing the candy wasn't going to hurt anyone, you knew that it would probably not be noticed, so you went ahead.[/Quote] Whether you realize that or not, you still know it is wrong. I think it’s a simple argument that people know that certain things are wrong. It doesn’t matter what the penalty or reward is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flashvortx 0 #83 February 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteYes, it is a belief. However, it is based on scientific fact. If God is defined as something outside of our laws/rules/whatever, . That is so totally lame. Your philosophy has a serious FLAW and you can't get around it that way. What's the FLAW? I'll be happy to defend it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flashvortx 0 #84 February 24, 2011 [Quote] The Bible was written by man. Writing something down does not make it true.[/Quote] The Bible was written over several centuries by 40 authors. Most lived in different eras and locations. The idea that a book that size could be written over so many years by so many different people that had no knowledge of one another and be consistent is one you can’t overlook. The Bible was written by man, but is the word of God. [Quote] Well, we don't know that. So we don't know that everything that we see and use was created by some other being. Therefore, we don't know that there is a "creator."[/Quote] The dirt, planets, and solar systems go hand in hand with the creation of the universe. They basically are the universe. What I was saying is that God created all of that (possibly with a very large bang), and that everything that has been made since then has required a creator. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Meso 38 #85 February 24, 2011 QuoteIf it’s a completely separate realm, we can’t make any assumptions on what goes on there. Infinity might not even be a concept there, and particles might not even exist. All I was saying is that God cannot be part of our realm. I hate how religions turn to that. Basically you're just saying what most Christians who can't prove their points say. "God requires faith, he doesn't need logic or physics or science... Just faith", in which case you could have said that in the beginning. It's the trump card, there's no way to dispute it because it can't be proved or disproved. At the same time though, it doesn't make God any more likely to exist. Faeries, unicorns, elves, pixies- They all have an equal chance of existing if you're to use that pattern of thought. It makes whatever anyone want to exist, exist. They are part of a different realm but have their presence here on earth etc (Same as with God/Jesus) I see faith as complete weakness, faith is nothing, yet faith is everything. Faith is making whatever you want to exist, exist. And yet since it doesn't follow logic, it can't be disproved. QuoteIt doesn’t play by the same rules, but it does play by rules. / They are constantly learning more and more and changing what we currently think to be fact. What you're saying can be applied to my side of the debate too. No one knows all the rules of space, but if God's alternate realm can be host to certain characteristics then space could too since we don't understand it fully. QuoteWhether you realize that or not, you still know it is wrong. I think it’s a simple argument that people know that certain things are wrong. It doesn’t matter what the penalty or reward is. What evidence do you have to support that idea? You didn't offer a rebuttal, again. What hints at anything other than us deciding our morals on what we do affecting other people. I'd like to know what flaws my concept has besides the flaw that it goes against your idea of God. It makes a lot more sense given we know we exist and we are aware that we make decisions. Are there examples of things that are immoral that don't affect other people? I also suggest you just watch this Scott Clifton video on morals: http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=11161 He addresses what I am saying in the same sense but in a lot more detail and far more articulated. To be honest I was looking for a video I have seen from him before on the writings of the bible to combat your comment on the writing of the bible. But came across this by mistake and I find it interesting that he follows the same view I put forward. (Though I will continue to try to find the other video for the next post when I get time) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nigel99 150 #86 February 24, 2011 QuoteIsn't String Theory an attempt to solve Einstein’s problem? Maybe it’s very complex and can’t be solved in a lifetime, or many lifetimes. Either way, at one point in time people knew the Earth was flat and at another, people knew that the Earth was the center of the universe. The way we know the world changes constantly and God’s word stays the same. I have no problem with you believing in God that is a personal decision and honestly nobody but you has the right to question that. However if you are truly interested in finding the truth, your own statement above highlights self-deception. As you say at one point in time people knew xyz. Exactly the same goes for God, at one point in Time God was the only rational explanation for the unexplainable. Can you honestly say that you have looked at the evidence that the modern scientific method is producing and not question your beliefs? I think that it is beyond dispute that Genesis (God's word) version of the creation story has been proven to not be correct. Do you eat bacon, where synthetic fibres, eat cheeseburgers, work on a Saturday? If you do any of those things you either don't believe that God's word is unchangeable or are sinning and rationalising it. My guess (putting on mind-readers hat) is that you rationalise those aspects of the bible, along the lines of "times change and that was relevant then". To be honest with you I think people get to hung up on the evolution debate where there is alot that is still unknown. Quantum physics, general physics and very importantly genetics provide a constrant stream of data that should at the very least make you examine your beliefs. The area that I find most interesting is sociology and human behaviour, perhaps it is because my brother is a professor of Philosophy. Taking a long hard look at why "everyone" in the south of the USA is a Baptist and "everyone" in Iran is a Muslim for a start - what rational explanation is there from a religious viewpoint? Why are Americans now God's chosen people being christians - when did the "unchanging God" turn his back on the jews of the Bible?Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Meso 38 #87 February 24, 2011 QuoteThe Bible was written over several centuries by 40 authors. Most lived in different eras and locations. The idea that a book that size could be written over so many years by so many different people that had no knowledge of one another and be consistent is one you can’t overlook. The Bible was written by man, but is the word of God. Whoa Nelly, stop right there... QuoteSo many different people that had no knowledge of one another From what I understand this is extremely incorrect. I recall that the writers of the bible all wrote what they did from looking at the scriptures of the other writers involved and evolved their books. Much like me writing a story, passing it on to someone else, them adding to the story and passing it along to their friend to write the next, I'm fairly certain I recall historic facts pointing to that. I must admit I`m unsure as to the exact details and I'm struggling to find the single source that addressed it in it's entirety where I heard the details. But I'm almost certain that the authors definitely didn't all write the same types of things by chance. I'm fairly certain there is consensus with the authors using the previous and other writers stories as reference. Some of the Christian arguments I have read have tried to go along the lines of "They may have been acquainted but they may not have known what the other was writing". Yeah that seems very likely. Though this is a topic I`m not 100% sure on, if someone can show me some studies that state that the writers had no previous knowledge of the other writers work I`ll gladly read it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nigel99 150 #88 February 24, 2011 QuoteI see faith as complete weakness, faith is nothing, yet faith is everything. Faith is making whatever you want to exist, exist. And yet since it doesn't follow logic, it can't be disproved. Not sure where you are going with this comment? I don't agree on a certain level and it could be that it is simply not what you mean't. Faith is very important. If you can't accept certain basic premise that underline your belief structure and question absolutely everything at its deepest level you are not going to be able to progress. Is it legitimate to use the bible to argue against it? I will anyway QuoteNow faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see Some people choose to put their faith in God, others put their faith in science. Like it or not there are aspects of science that "we hope will be proven oneday" and that is what many of us base our belief systems on. At a personal level I believe there is more evidence that the God of the bible does not exist, and so I have staked my eternity on that assumption.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites doughboyshred 0 #89 February 24, 2011 Quote Quote Says the same thing that has been evident since the concept of his being began... If he does exist, he just doesn't give a damn about anything other than being praised, egotistical may be the right word to describe him. He claims to have the power to do anything, yet he is quite content with watching his beloved 'children' be raped and killed. Well I guess it makes sense given he is also okay with sending them to eternal damnation just because they feel there isn't enough evidence to worship him. God is quite clearly one for promoting being gullible, so much so that he makes sure most of his so-called miracles are easily explained with logic and alternate circumstances. Nothing like tricking your beloved children into an eternity of suffering right? That seems good punishment for not accepting a far fetched claim. The irony is this: When God lets someone die or be raped, the Christians will say that it was God's will and that God doesn't intervene, rather allowing humans to face their own actions and suffer from the acts of others around them. Yet when they win some money or fall pregnant... God has suddenly intervened and provided them with that blessing. Apparently he doesn't care about blessing people with an escape from death though, especially given that there's no change in death ratios between religions. In the assumption that God did exist. He would be a bully, unjust, egotistical, spiteful, jealous (self proclaimed), sly, underhanded, vengeful and malevolent dictator. Makes me glad I don't believe in his existence, I'd feel like a total ass falling inline for someone with those characteristics, nevermind idolizing and worshipping him. Very true. Anyway today is not a good day to be in SC having had my fair dose before 8am at home. Wife was watching some animal show with the kids in bed. As I left the room she said "it is amazing how God made them like that. Anyone who believes God doesn't exist is an idiot". Nice one, very fucking Christian thank-you. You make me swear I will keep my beliefs to myself and not tell the kids; and then tell them yourself anyway putting your own spin on it. Then you go on to cause that kind of shit. Honestly at least in SC you can log-offIf God did exist he would not only be everything you have said but a grade A wanker as well. You're doing your children a disservice by not presenting them with your opinion on the subject. Your wife is doing you a disservice by indoctrinating your children. Sorry to hear that you have to deal with that shit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Meso 38 #90 February 24, 2011 Where I was going with that statement was nowhere really, I was stating how untouchable faith is because it's something that's immune to logic. Faith is not important. It is the opposite of science, I don't see how you can say people put their faith in science, they don't- not typically. A scientist will attempt to prove something, if science was about faith there would be no need to prove anything, a scientist would propose a theory and that would be that. Instead he will aim to prove that theory. I have no 'faith in science', if a theory lacks logical support or evidence I`m not going to believe it to be true. With God on the other hand it's a very different matter. With God it's more like me saying that unicorns poop rainbows and that is where rainbows come from, and the existence of rainbows is the evidence to my proposition. And then when you say it's the light reflecting, I tell you it was the unicorn who created those particles that the light is reflecting off. There is no evidence to support the presence of God, it's just assumed that because there's no 100% proven method of creation that there must be. I'm Atheist but I don't rule out the existence of a God completely, It's just soooooooo small that it's pointless to even consider (and no that's not Agnostic). God, Easter Bunny, Father Christmas, Unicorns, Faeries... They're all exactly on the same page when it comes to evidence of creation. The only difference between the others and God, is that someone decided to write about God. I'd be glad to change my belief should any evidence actually show, and not require me to have blind faith. I hate the reality of death as an Atheist, but the truth is harsh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites virgin-burner 1 #91 February 24, 2011 Quote Yes, it is a belief. However, it is based on scientific fact. I've loved science my whole life and still enjoy learning about it and that has only strengthened my belief in God. Even with a somewhat scientific mind, God does make sense. scientific facts!? delusional, yes! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,651 #92 February 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteYes, it is a belief. However, it is based on scientific fact. If God is defined as something outside of our laws/rules/whatever, . That is so totally lame. Your philosophy has a serious FLAW and you can't get around it that way. What's the FLAW? I'll be happy to defend it. The flaw is defending an inconsistency in your own logic ("Everything does need a designer") in support of your beliefs by saying logic doesn't apply at the most fundamental level of your beliefs.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites normiss 622 #93 February 24, 2011 We don't know what "God's" word is. What you read as "God's" word is mans interpretation of what "He" said. It's also been changed numerous times since then. Do you read Hebrew? Aramaic? Greek? Have you read all 66-something interpretations of The Law, The Prophets, and The Writings? The TNK had an interesting journey around that time. If "He" were here today, he'd be Baker Acted. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Meso 38 #94 February 24, 2011 I seemed to have missed this part. QuoteHell is defined as a life apart from God. We are quite literally in hell right now. It's not the hell that I fear the most, but it does fit the definition. Earlier on in this thread I think it was I pasted quotes from the bible in regards to the description of hell. I'm not sure where you get your definition of hell, but the hell as defined in the bible is more often than not referred to as a pit of flames located in the center of the earth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,651 #95 February 24, 2011 QuoteI seemed to have missed this part. QuoteHell is defined as a life apart from God. We are quite literally in hell right now. It's not the hell that I fear the most, but it does fit the definition. Earlier on in this thread I think it was I pasted quotes from the bible in regards to the description of hell. I'm not sure where you get your definition of hell, but the hell as defined in the bible is more often than not referred to as a pit of flames located in the center of the earth. Selecting parts of scripture to believe as fundamental truth (and try to force on other people) and parts to conveniently ignore is par for the course among the religious.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites virgin-burner 1 #96 February 24, 2011 Quote Quote I seemed to have missed this part. Quote Hell is defined as a life apart from God. We are quite literally in hell right now. It's not the hell that I fear the most, but it does fit the definition. Earlier on in this thread I think it was I pasted quotes from the bible in regards to the description of hell. I'm not sure where you get your definition of hell, but the hell as defined in the bible is more often than not referred to as a pit of flames located in the center of the earth. Selecting parts of scripture to believe as fundamental truth (and try to force on other people) and parts to conveniently ignore is par for the course among the religious. that, and other "behaviourism".. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites maadmax 0 #97 February 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteIt is hard to know what hell really is. My belief is that those who have chosen to reject God are better off there in an environment they can comprehend than they would be in heaven "The mind is its own place, and in itself Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven." +1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lurch 0 #98 February 24, 2011 "Hell is defined as a life apart from God. We are quite literally in hell right now." I love this argument. It implies a certain wonderful freedom from that all important sense of religious dread and drama so many seem to feed on and seem determined to spread to others. What if I happen to be dread-proof? What if I am neither impressed with the threats of punishment nor motivated by promises of reward? What if I just don't fear? What if I LIKE hell? What if my idea of paradise is an eternity without a god? With nothing to be afraid of? Its how I've lived my life already, anyway, and its largely been a life full of wonder, adventure, friends and laughter. If thats hell, I'll take it. People impressed or intimidated by the concept of "hell" lack imagination and go entertainingly ballistic when they find the fundamentals of their beliefs they do not question just stubbornly fail to apply to certain people. Even if you grant hell a literal definition of burning torture, lets take an extreme example of a highly developed masochist that gets off on pain and torture. There can be no hell for that person. That person is free, even from "god". You can't torture someone who enjoys it. It just frustrates the hell out of the torturer and the supposedly tortured victim winds up laughing their ass off and experiencing great pleasure. Hmmm. It seems there is a motivation problem here. What are you gonna do now, -not- torture them and say "There! serves you right, you villain, now suffer, dammit!" Oooo, scary. Now, see, this is where a little sophistication and experience pays off. I'm not a masochist, I don't get off on pain, but I've been hurt before and am not intimidated by it. I recently got my hand severely burned by oil spatter while cooking. Just a "pop", and suddenly one finger was half coated in 400 degree oil. About 1/4 the skin on that finger promptly melted off. "Ah shit" I thought, "better get cold water right now cause in a few seconds this is REALLY going to hurt." Determined not to let this freak me out or really bother me I just dunked the hand in cold water, then proceeded to finish cooking my damn dinner thinking "Yup, that hurts like hell alright, oh well." Then I started grinning. It was really no big deal once you get your mind around it. Fuck it. Its just a burn, not the end of the world, not a crisis, no drama needed. All part of the adventure we call life. Everything I know about stoicism I learned from the Japanese. When threats of pain or torture or "separation from god" whatever thats supposed to mean, don't hold any power over the individual, the individual cannot be punished. Oops! Whats god gonna do now, come up with something even more vindictive to punish me for exempting myself from his little system? The whole thing makes no sense, but I do enjoy watching the religious play their little games talking about hell. Its like a cartoon and I deal with it with the same indulgence any polite adult does towards the natural imaginative ignorance of children. "Yes I'm very scared of your god's scary superpowers, now go play." If this comes across as condescending as all hell, its supposed to be. Its satire, intended to communicate what religious certainty looks like to me, endless pompous asses stating their opinions as if they were facts. Its not nearly as condescending as having some twat telling me he knows I'm gonna experience torture forever because I don't buy into his belief system claiming that through this "god" he understands the deepest mysteries and motivations of the universe and I don't. Believers know exactly as much as I do about the greater scheme of things: Nothing. At least the nonbelievers are free from the delusion that they know how it all works and why. Nonbelievers are honest. We know that we don't know what or how or why everything exists, we're comfortable with that and totally unafraid to admit it. -BLive and learn... or die, and teach by example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites maadmax 0 #99 February 24, 2011 I agree with your statement. For me seeking God is not about avoiding hell. Its about finding Truth, and in the process discovering the truth of who I am. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stevebabin 0 #100 February 24, 2011 Quote In the assumption that God did exist. He would be a bully, unjust, egotistical, spiteful, jealous (self proclaimed), sly, underhanded, vengeful and malevolent dictator. Makes me glad I don't believe in his existence, I'd feel like a total ass falling inline for someone with those characteristics, nevermind idolizing and worshipping him. The difference in our viewpoints appears to be that you assume God is the cause of our suffering. The plan of God, as I understand it, is that He created us with free will. We have the capability of knowing Him through faith and self denial or we can set ourselves up as god in His place. We are the cause of our suffering, God provides a means of escape. If your imaginary god is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, then he gets the blame for the bad as well as the good. Can't have it both ways... If "We won because god was on our side!", then "We lost because Jesus made me fumble!""Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings." "Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next Page 4 of 9 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
flashvortx 0 #84 February 24, 2011 [Quote] The Bible was written by man. Writing something down does not make it true.[/Quote] The Bible was written over several centuries by 40 authors. Most lived in different eras and locations. The idea that a book that size could be written over so many years by so many different people that had no knowledge of one another and be consistent is one you can’t overlook. The Bible was written by man, but is the word of God. [Quote] Well, we don't know that. So we don't know that everything that we see and use was created by some other being. Therefore, we don't know that there is a "creator."[/Quote] The dirt, planets, and solar systems go hand in hand with the creation of the universe. They basically are the universe. What I was saying is that God created all of that (possibly with a very large bang), and that everything that has been made since then has required a creator. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Meso 38 #85 February 24, 2011 QuoteIf it’s a completely separate realm, we can’t make any assumptions on what goes on there. Infinity might not even be a concept there, and particles might not even exist. All I was saying is that God cannot be part of our realm. I hate how religions turn to that. Basically you're just saying what most Christians who can't prove their points say. "God requires faith, he doesn't need logic or physics or science... Just faith", in which case you could have said that in the beginning. It's the trump card, there's no way to dispute it because it can't be proved or disproved. At the same time though, it doesn't make God any more likely to exist. Faeries, unicorns, elves, pixies- They all have an equal chance of existing if you're to use that pattern of thought. It makes whatever anyone want to exist, exist. They are part of a different realm but have their presence here on earth etc (Same as with God/Jesus) I see faith as complete weakness, faith is nothing, yet faith is everything. Faith is making whatever you want to exist, exist. And yet since it doesn't follow logic, it can't be disproved. QuoteIt doesn’t play by the same rules, but it does play by rules. / They are constantly learning more and more and changing what we currently think to be fact. What you're saying can be applied to my side of the debate too. No one knows all the rules of space, but if God's alternate realm can be host to certain characteristics then space could too since we don't understand it fully. QuoteWhether you realize that or not, you still know it is wrong. I think it’s a simple argument that people know that certain things are wrong. It doesn’t matter what the penalty or reward is. What evidence do you have to support that idea? You didn't offer a rebuttal, again. What hints at anything other than us deciding our morals on what we do affecting other people. I'd like to know what flaws my concept has besides the flaw that it goes against your idea of God. It makes a lot more sense given we know we exist and we are aware that we make decisions. Are there examples of things that are immoral that don't affect other people? I also suggest you just watch this Scott Clifton video on morals: http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=11161 He addresses what I am saying in the same sense but in a lot more detail and far more articulated. To be honest I was looking for a video I have seen from him before on the writings of the bible to combat your comment on the writing of the bible. But came across this by mistake and I find it interesting that he follows the same view I put forward. (Though I will continue to try to find the other video for the next post when I get time) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 150 #86 February 24, 2011 QuoteIsn't String Theory an attempt to solve Einstein’s problem? Maybe it’s very complex and can’t be solved in a lifetime, or many lifetimes. Either way, at one point in time people knew the Earth was flat and at another, people knew that the Earth was the center of the universe. The way we know the world changes constantly and God’s word stays the same. I have no problem with you believing in God that is a personal decision and honestly nobody but you has the right to question that. However if you are truly interested in finding the truth, your own statement above highlights self-deception. As you say at one point in time people knew xyz. Exactly the same goes for God, at one point in Time God was the only rational explanation for the unexplainable. Can you honestly say that you have looked at the evidence that the modern scientific method is producing and not question your beliefs? I think that it is beyond dispute that Genesis (God's word) version of the creation story has been proven to not be correct. Do you eat bacon, where synthetic fibres, eat cheeseburgers, work on a Saturday? If you do any of those things you either don't believe that God's word is unchangeable or are sinning and rationalising it. My guess (putting on mind-readers hat) is that you rationalise those aspects of the bible, along the lines of "times change and that was relevant then". To be honest with you I think people get to hung up on the evolution debate where there is alot that is still unknown. Quantum physics, general physics and very importantly genetics provide a constrant stream of data that should at the very least make you examine your beliefs. The area that I find most interesting is sociology and human behaviour, perhaps it is because my brother is a professor of Philosophy. Taking a long hard look at why "everyone" in the south of the USA is a Baptist and "everyone" in Iran is a Muslim for a start - what rational explanation is there from a religious viewpoint? Why are Americans now God's chosen people being christians - when did the "unchanging God" turn his back on the jews of the Bible?Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Meso 38 #87 February 24, 2011 QuoteThe Bible was written over several centuries by 40 authors. Most lived in different eras and locations. The idea that a book that size could be written over so many years by so many different people that had no knowledge of one another and be consistent is one you can’t overlook. The Bible was written by man, but is the word of God. Whoa Nelly, stop right there... QuoteSo many different people that had no knowledge of one another From what I understand this is extremely incorrect. I recall that the writers of the bible all wrote what they did from looking at the scriptures of the other writers involved and evolved their books. Much like me writing a story, passing it on to someone else, them adding to the story and passing it along to their friend to write the next, I'm fairly certain I recall historic facts pointing to that. I must admit I`m unsure as to the exact details and I'm struggling to find the single source that addressed it in it's entirety where I heard the details. But I'm almost certain that the authors definitely didn't all write the same types of things by chance. I'm fairly certain there is consensus with the authors using the previous and other writers stories as reference. Some of the Christian arguments I have read have tried to go along the lines of "They may have been acquainted but they may not have known what the other was writing". Yeah that seems very likely. Though this is a topic I`m not 100% sure on, if someone can show me some studies that state that the writers had no previous knowledge of the other writers work I`ll gladly read it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 150 #88 February 24, 2011 QuoteI see faith as complete weakness, faith is nothing, yet faith is everything. Faith is making whatever you want to exist, exist. And yet since it doesn't follow logic, it can't be disproved. Not sure where you are going with this comment? I don't agree on a certain level and it could be that it is simply not what you mean't. Faith is very important. If you can't accept certain basic premise that underline your belief structure and question absolutely everything at its deepest level you are not going to be able to progress. Is it legitimate to use the bible to argue against it? I will anyway QuoteNow faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see Some people choose to put their faith in God, others put their faith in science. Like it or not there are aspects of science that "we hope will be proven oneday" and that is what many of us base our belief systems on. At a personal level I believe there is more evidence that the God of the bible does not exist, and so I have staked my eternity on that assumption.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doughboyshred 0 #89 February 24, 2011 Quote Quote Says the same thing that has been evident since the concept of his being began... If he does exist, he just doesn't give a damn about anything other than being praised, egotistical may be the right word to describe him. He claims to have the power to do anything, yet he is quite content with watching his beloved 'children' be raped and killed. Well I guess it makes sense given he is also okay with sending them to eternal damnation just because they feel there isn't enough evidence to worship him. God is quite clearly one for promoting being gullible, so much so that he makes sure most of his so-called miracles are easily explained with logic and alternate circumstances. Nothing like tricking your beloved children into an eternity of suffering right? That seems good punishment for not accepting a far fetched claim. The irony is this: When God lets someone die or be raped, the Christians will say that it was God's will and that God doesn't intervene, rather allowing humans to face their own actions and suffer from the acts of others around them. Yet when they win some money or fall pregnant... God has suddenly intervened and provided them with that blessing. Apparently he doesn't care about blessing people with an escape from death though, especially given that there's no change in death ratios between religions. In the assumption that God did exist. He would be a bully, unjust, egotistical, spiteful, jealous (self proclaimed), sly, underhanded, vengeful and malevolent dictator. Makes me glad I don't believe in his existence, I'd feel like a total ass falling inline for someone with those characteristics, nevermind idolizing and worshipping him. Very true. Anyway today is not a good day to be in SC having had my fair dose before 8am at home. Wife was watching some animal show with the kids in bed. As I left the room she said "it is amazing how God made them like that. Anyone who believes God doesn't exist is an idiot". Nice one, very fucking Christian thank-you. You make me swear I will keep my beliefs to myself and not tell the kids; and then tell them yourself anyway putting your own spin on it. Then you go on to cause that kind of shit. Honestly at least in SC you can log-offIf God did exist he would not only be everything you have said but a grade A wanker as well. You're doing your children a disservice by not presenting them with your opinion on the subject. Your wife is doing you a disservice by indoctrinating your children. Sorry to hear that you have to deal with that shit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Meso 38 #90 February 24, 2011 Where I was going with that statement was nowhere really, I was stating how untouchable faith is because it's something that's immune to logic. Faith is not important. It is the opposite of science, I don't see how you can say people put their faith in science, they don't- not typically. A scientist will attempt to prove something, if science was about faith there would be no need to prove anything, a scientist would propose a theory and that would be that. Instead he will aim to prove that theory. I have no 'faith in science', if a theory lacks logical support or evidence I`m not going to believe it to be true. With God on the other hand it's a very different matter. With God it's more like me saying that unicorns poop rainbows and that is where rainbows come from, and the existence of rainbows is the evidence to my proposition. And then when you say it's the light reflecting, I tell you it was the unicorn who created those particles that the light is reflecting off. There is no evidence to support the presence of God, it's just assumed that because there's no 100% proven method of creation that there must be. I'm Atheist but I don't rule out the existence of a God completely, It's just soooooooo small that it's pointless to even consider (and no that's not Agnostic). God, Easter Bunny, Father Christmas, Unicorns, Faeries... They're all exactly on the same page when it comes to evidence of creation. The only difference between the others and God, is that someone decided to write about God. I'd be glad to change my belief should any evidence actually show, and not require me to have blind faith. I hate the reality of death as an Atheist, but the truth is harsh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #91 February 24, 2011 Quote Yes, it is a belief. However, it is based on scientific fact. I've loved science my whole life and still enjoy learning about it and that has only strengthened my belief in God. Even with a somewhat scientific mind, God does make sense. scientific facts!? delusional, yes! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,651 #92 February 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteYes, it is a belief. However, it is based on scientific fact. If God is defined as something outside of our laws/rules/whatever, . That is so totally lame. Your philosophy has a serious FLAW and you can't get around it that way. What's the FLAW? I'll be happy to defend it. The flaw is defending an inconsistency in your own logic ("Everything does need a designer") in support of your beliefs by saying logic doesn't apply at the most fundamental level of your beliefs.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites normiss 622 #93 February 24, 2011 We don't know what "God's" word is. What you read as "God's" word is mans interpretation of what "He" said. It's also been changed numerous times since then. Do you read Hebrew? Aramaic? Greek? Have you read all 66-something interpretations of The Law, The Prophets, and The Writings? The TNK had an interesting journey around that time. If "He" were here today, he'd be Baker Acted. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Meso 38 #94 February 24, 2011 I seemed to have missed this part. QuoteHell is defined as a life apart from God. We are quite literally in hell right now. It's not the hell that I fear the most, but it does fit the definition. Earlier on in this thread I think it was I pasted quotes from the bible in regards to the description of hell. I'm not sure where you get your definition of hell, but the hell as defined in the bible is more often than not referred to as a pit of flames located in the center of the earth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,651 #95 February 24, 2011 QuoteI seemed to have missed this part. QuoteHell is defined as a life apart from God. We are quite literally in hell right now. It's not the hell that I fear the most, but it does fit the definition. Earlier on in this thread I think it was I pasted quotes from the bible in regards to the description of hell. I'm not sure where you get your definition of hell, but the hell as defined in the bible is more often than not referred to as a pit of flames located in the center of the earth. Selecting parts of scripture to believe as fundamental truth (and try to force on other people) and parts to conveniently ignore is par for the course among the religious.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites virgin-burner 1 #96 February 24, 2011 Quote Quote I seemed to have missed this part. Quote Hell is defined as a life apart from God. We are quite literally in hell right now. It's not the hell that I fear the most, but it does fit the definition. Earlier on in this thread I think it was I pasted quotes from the bible in regards to the description of hell. I'm not sure where you get your definition of hell, but the hell as defined in the bible is more often than not referred to as a pit of flames located in the center of the earth. Selecting parts of scripture to believe as fundamental truth (and try to force on other people) and parts to conveniently ignore is par for the course among the religious. that, and other "behaviourism".. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites maadmax 0 #97 February 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteIt is hard to know what hell really is. My belief is that those who have chosen to reject God are better off there in an environment they can comprehend than they would be in heaven "The mind is its own place, and in itself Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven." +1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lurch 0 #98 February 24, 2011 "Hell is defined as a life apart from God. We are quite literally in hell right now." I love this argument. It implies a certain wonderful freedom from that all important sense of religious dread and drama so many seem to feed on and seem determined to spread to others. What if I happen to be dread-proof? What if I am neither impressed with the threats of punishment nor motivated by promises of reward? What if I just don't fear? What if I LIKE hell? What if my idea of paradise is an eternity without a god? With nothing to be afraid of? Its how I've lived my life already, anyway, and its largely been a life full of wonder, adventure, friends and laughter. If thats hell, I'll take it. People impressed or intimidated by the concept of "hell" lack imagination and go entertainingly ballistic when they find the fundamentals of their beliefs they do not question just stubbornly fail to apply to certain people. Even if you grant hell a literal definition of burning torture, lets take an extreme example of a highly developed masochist that gets off on pain and torture. There can be no hell for that person. That person is free, even from "god". You can't torture someone who enjoys it. It just frustrates the hell out of the torturer and the supposedly tortured victim winds up laughing their ass off and experiencing great pleasure. Hmmm. It seems there is a motivation problem here. What are you gonna do now, -not- torture them and say "There! serves you right, you villain, now suffer, dammit!" Oooo, scary. Now, see, this is where a little sophistication and experience pays off. I'm not a masochist, I don't get off on pain, but I've been hurt before and am not intimidated by it. I recently got my hand severely burned by oil spatter while cooking. Just a "pop", and suddenly one finger was half coated in 400 degree oil. About 1/4 the skin on that finger promptly melted off. "Ah shit" I thought, "better get cold water right now cause in a few seconds this is REALLY going to hurt." Determined not to let this freak me out or really bother me I just dunked the hand in cold water, then proceeded to finish cooking my damn dinner thinking "Yup, that hurts like hell alright, oh well." Then I started grinning. It was really no big deal once you get your mind around it. Fuck it. Its just a burn, not the end of the world, not a crisis, no drama needed. All part of the adventure we call life. Everything I know about stoicism I learned from the Japanese. When threats of pain or torture or "separation from god" whatever thats supposed to mean, don't hold any power over the individual, the individual cannot be punished. Oops! Whats god gonna do now, come up with something even more vindictive to punish me for exempting myself from his little system? The whole thing makes no sense, but I do enjoy watching the religious play their little games talking about hell. Its like a cartoon and I deal with it with the same indulgence any polite adult does towards the natural imaginative ignorance of children. "Yes I'm very scared of your god's scary superpowers, now go play." If this comes across as condescending as all hell, its supposed to be. Its satire, intended to communicate what religious certainty looks like to me, endless pompous asses stating their opinions as if they were facts. Its not nearly as condescending as having some twat telling me he knows I'm gonna experience torture forever because I don't buy into his belief system claiming that through this "god" he understands the deepest mysteries and motivations of the universe and I don't. Believers know exactly as much as I do about the greater scheme of things: Nothing. At least the nonbelievers are free from the delusion that they know how it all works and why. Nonbelievers are honest. We know that we don't know what or how or why everything exists, we're comfortable with that and totally unafraid to admit it. -BLive and learn... or die, and teach by example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites maadmax 0 #99 February 24, 2011 I agree with your statement. For me seeking God is not about avoiding hell. Its about finding Truth, and in the process discovering the truth of who I am. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stevebabin 0 #100 February 24, 2011 Quote In the assumption that God did exist. He would be a bully, unjust, egotistical, spiteful, jealous (self proclaimed), sly, underhanded, vengeful and malevolent dictator. Makes me glad I don't believe in his existence, I'd feel like a total ass falling inline for someone with those characteristics, nevermind idolizing and worshipping him. The difference in our viewpoints appears to be that you assume God is the cause of our suffering. The plan of God, as I understand it, is that He created us with free will. We have the capability of knowing Him through faith and self denial or we can set ourselves up as god in His place. We are the cause of our suffering, God provides a means of escape. If your imaginary god is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, then he gets the blame for the bad as well as the good. Can't have it both ways... If "We won because god was on our side!", then "We lost because Jesus made me fumble!""Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings." "Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next Page 4 of 9 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
normiss 622 #93 February 24, 2011 We don't know what "God's" word is. What you read as "God's" word is mans interpretation of what "He" said. It's also been changed numerous times since then. Do you read Hebrew? Aramaic? Greek? Have you read all 66-something interpretations of The Law, The Prophets, and The Writings? The TNK had an interesting journey around that time. If "He" were here today, he'd be Baker Acted. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Meso 38 #94 February 24, 2011 I seemed to have missed this part. QuoteHell is defined as a life apart from God. We are quite literally in hell right now. It's not the hell that I fear the most, but it does fit the definition. Earlier on in this thread I think it was I pasted quotes from the bible in regards to the description of hell. I'm not sure where you get your definition of hell, but the hell as defined in the bible is more often than not referred to as a pit of flames located in the center of the earth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,651 #95 February 24, 2011 QuoteI seemed to have missed this part. QuoteHell is defined as a life apart from God. We are quite literally in hell right now. It's not the hell that I fear the most, but it does fit the definition. Earlier on in this thread I think it was I pasted quotes from the bible in regards to the description of hell. I'm not sure where you get your definition of hell, but the hell as defined in the bible is more often than not referred to as a pit of flames located in the center of the earth. Selecting parts of scripture to believe as fundamental truth (and try to force on other people) and parts to conveniently ignore is par for the course among the religious.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #96 February 24, 2011 Quote Quote I seemed to have missed this part. Quote Hell is defined as a life apart from God. We are quite literally in hell right now. It's not the hell that I fear the most, but it does fit the definition. Earlier on in this thread I think it was I pasted quotes from the bible in regards to the description of hell. I'm not sure where you get your definition of hell, but the hell as defined in the bible is more often than not referred to as a pit of flames located in the center of the earth. Selecting parts of scripture to believe as fundamental truth (and try to force on other people) and parts to conveniently ignore is par for the course among the religious. that, and other "behaviourism".. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maadmax 0 #97 February 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteIt is hard to know what hell really is. My belief is that those who have chosen to reject God are better off there in an environment they can comprehend than they would be in heaven "The mind is its own place, and in itself Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven." +1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lurch 0 #98 February 24, 2011 "Hell is defined as a life apart from God. We are quite literally in hell right now." I love this argument. It implies a certain wonderful freedom from that all important sense of religious dread and drama so many seem to feed on and seem determined to spread to others. What if I happen to be dread-proof? What if I am neither impressed with the threats of punishment nor motivated by promises of reward? What if I just don't fear? What if I LIKE hell? What if my idea of paradise is an eternity without a god? With nothing to be afraid of? Its how I've lived my life already, anyway, and its largely been a life full of wonder, adventure, friends and laughter. If thats hell, I'll take it. People impressed or intimidated by the concept of "hell" lack imagination and go entertainingly ballistic when they find the fundamentals of their beliefs they do not question just stubbornly fail to apply to certain people. Even if you grant hell a literal definition of burning torture, lets take an extreme example of a highly developed masochist that gets off on pain and torture. There can be no hell for that person. That person is free, even from "god". You can't torture someone who enjoys it. It just frustrates the hell out of the torturer and the supposedly tortured victim winds up laughing their ass off and experiencing great pleasure. Hmmm. It seems there is a motivation problem here. What are you gonna do now, -not- torture them and say "There! serves you right, you villain, now suffer, dammit!" Oooo, scary. Now, see, this is where a little sophistication and experience pays off. I'm not a masochist, I don't get off on pain, but I've been hurt before and am not intimidated by it. I recently got my hand severely burned by oil spatter while cooking. Just a "pop", and suddenly one finger was half coated in 400 degree oil. About 1/4 the skin on that finger promptly melted off. "Ah shit" I thought, "better get cold water right now cause in a few seconds this is REALLY going to hurt." Determined not to let this freak me out or really bother me I just dunked the hand in cold water, then proceeded to finish cooking my damn dinner thinking "Yup, that hurts like hell alright, oh well." Then I started grinning. It was really no big deal once you get your mind around it. Fuck it. Its just a burn, not the end of the world, not a crisis, no drama needed. All part of the adventure we call life. Everything I know about stoicism I learned from the Japanese. When threats of pain or torture or "separation from god" whatever thats supposed to mean, don't hold any power over the individual, the individual cannot be punished. Oops! Whats god gonna do now, come up with something even more vindictive to punish me for exempting myself from his little system? The whole thing makes no sense, but I do enjoy watching the religious play their little games talking about hell. Its like a cartoon and I deal with it with the same indulgence any polite adult does towards the natural imaginative ignorance of children. "Yes I'm very scared of your god's scary superpowers, now go play." If this comes across as condescending as all hell, its supposed to be. Its satire, intended to communicate what religious certainty looks like to me, endless pompous asses stating their opinions as if they were facts. Its not nearly as condescending as having some twat telling me he knows I'm gonna experience torture forever because I don't buy into his belief system claiming that through this "god" he understands the deepest mysteries and motivations of the universe and I don't. Believers know exactly as much as I do about the greater scheme of things: Nothing. At least the nonbelievers are free from the delusion that they know how it all works and why. Nonbelievers are honest. We know that we don't know what or how or why everything exists, we're comfortable with that and totally unafraid to admit it. -BLive and learn... or die, and teach by example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maadmax 0 #99 February 24, 2011 I agree with your statement. For me seeking God is not about avoiding hell. Its about finding Truth, and in the process discovering the truth of who I am. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevebabin 0 #100 February 24, 2011 Quote In the assumption that God did exist. He would be a bully, unjust, egotistical, spiteful, jealous (self proclaimed), sly, underhanded, vengeful and malevolent dictator. Makes me glad I don't believe in his existence, I'd feel like a total ass falling inline for someone with those characteristics, nevermind idolizing and worshipping him. The difference in our viewpoints appears to be that you assume God is the cause of our suffering. The plan of God, as I understand it, is that He created us with free will. We have the capability of knowing Him through faith and self denial or we can set ourselves up as god in His place. We are the cause of our suffering, God provides a means of escape. If your imaginary god is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, then he gets the blame for the bad as well as the good. Can't have it both ways... If "We won because god was on our side!", then "We lost because Jesus made me fumble!""Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings." "Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
