Please help re Glen Beck

[brenthutch 388]

Break it down for me prof.

[brenthutch 388]

That is fine as long as you include the externalities involved with "green tech"

“Increased use of NiMH [nickel-metal-hydride] batteries [used in hybrid and electric cars] will necessarily require significant increases in nickel production and the impacts associated with nickel mining and refining,” states the report. “High-level nickel exposure is associated with increased cancer risk, respiratory disease, and birth defects; the same is true with certain other metals, especially cadmium and lead [used in solar cells and batteries].

[turtlespeed 212]

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Wait aminute . . . if it's not a tax . . . how does it repay debt?

I suppose if you want to charaterize every amount of money paid to a government entity as a tax, then it is a tax. Of course, that is a lousy definition. When you pay a tax, you don't receive a valuable good or service in return. When you buy a carbon credit, you do. You can turn around and resell that credit at whatever price the market will bear. You can't do that with your tax return.

To look at it another way, I went to a public university. I never considered my tuition to be a tax because I received a valuable service in return. If you want to call my tuition a tax, then I suppose buying carbon credits is a tax, but I think you're stretching the definition for rhetorical purposes.

I consider the priveledge of living in this country a valuable service for the taxes I pay. I do not advocate or agree with many, many of the uses of the money that I pay for taxes, but I still consider the infrastructure and public safety and the US military an extremely valuable service.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[brenthutch 388]

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That is fine as long as you include the externalities involved with "green tech"

“Increased use of NiMH [nickel-metal-hydride] batteries [used in hybrid and electric cars] will necessarily require significant increases in nickel production and the impacts associated with nickel mining and refining,” states the report. “High-level nickel exposure is associated with increased cancer risk, respiratory disease, and birth defects; the same is true with certain other metals, especially cadmium and lead [used in solar cells and batteries].

OMG its corn ethanol all over again!!!

[billvon 2,436]

Did you just answer yourself?

To your original point - yes. Account for external costs in all industries before claiming one is cheaper than the other.

[kallend 1,652]

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That is fine as long as you include the externalities involved with "green tech"

“Increased use of NiMH [nickel-metal-hydride] batteries [used in hybrid and electric cars] will necessarily require significant increases in nickel production and the impacts associated with nickel mining and refining,” states the report. “High-level nickel exposure is associated with increased cancer risk, respiratory disease, and birth defects; the same is true with certain other metals, especially cadmium and lead [used in solar cells and batteries].

Congratulations - you have finally discovered the basic principle of SUSTAINABILITY.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[brenthutch 388]

It is a case of the devil you know vs the devil you dont.

[billvon 2,436]

>It is a case of the devil you know vs the devil you dont.

Which devil don't we know?

[turtlespeed 212]

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>It is a case of the devil you know vs the devil you dont.

Which devil don't we know?

Funks.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 2,436]

>>Which devil don't we know?

>Funks.

True dat.

[DanG 1]

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...I still consider the infrastructure and public safety and the US military an extremely valuable service

Great. Then you should have no problem with a plan that protects our valuable natural resources, and improves public safety, and reduces the demand on the military. And if you want to call buying carbon credits a tax, then it still fits just fine into your worldview.

I'm glad we can agree that cap and trade is a good plan.

- Dan G

[jgoose71 0]

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Cap and trade treats carbon emmissions as a commodity. It's like freaking orange juice. You want more, you buy more from others who want less. It is as pure as capitalism can get.

Why do you hate capitalism?

The Carbon Credit market would be a market entirely created by and maintained by the governement. At the moment there is absolutely no demand for carbon credits. There will not be demand for carbon credits except that businesses will have to purchase them to avoid other forms of federal regulations and penalties (taxes). Captialism, indeed.

You should learn a little history. Free market Republicans pretty much invented "cap and trade". And it has been proven to work.

www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/Presence-of-Mind-Blue-Sky-Thinking.html

the thread has blown up since my post a while a go. To this specific point, Cap and trade is a scam.

What Reagan did was Cap, and that is it. SO2 was causing acid rain, which is very provable, and had to be controlled. It was capped and the problem was solved, period.

CO2, as far as we can tell isn't hurting anything. The only thing that CO2 seems to do is make trees grow. The earth is in a cooling period right now. There is no need to regulate it. If it was truly killing the environment, there would be a "Cap" and no "Trade". Its the "Trade" that is going to create the problems.

Let me read to you from the "Book of Enron" to tell you how this is really going to play out. I will use my make believe company "Fertilize America" as the example.

I have a fake company that will be allowed "X" amount of Carbon Credits. I will even by the sensors and install them in the back of my house. I won't use any of them. I will sell those credits to Tom for $10, Tom will sell Them to Dick for $20, Dick will sell them to Harry for $30. Harry will sell them to a company that really needs them for $40 because the government set their allowable rate way low. They had to set it low because myself, Tom Dick and Harry have cut into the share of total allowable CO2 immitions set by the government. Now myself, Tom Dick and Harry get a cut of the cash made from the company that really needs the credits for doing nothing. That extra cost will get factored into any items manufactured.

We are now going to loose our Green technologies to China, who doesn't participate in "Cap and Trade" because they can make batteries for our electric cars cheaper.

Like I said, if it was truly dangerous, there would just be a Cap and that is it.

But if the bill does pass, who wants to help me out with Seed money to get "Fertilize America" off the ground? Right now the House and Senate is full of people that would give us the license for a company for a few "campaign contributions"

Al Gore already has his license. I think he is "Dick" in the above chain of events.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[billvon 2,436]

>SO2 was causing acid rain, which is very provable . . .

Not to coal supporters. They claimed it was a scam without scientific backing, and that any attempt to regulate it would result in sky-high energy prices, the collapse of the economy and an all-powerful government. It was set up, they claimed, by people looking to get rich off the resulting market that would be created. (Sounding familiar yet?)

>What Reagan did was Cap, and that is it.

From Wikipedia:

======
As an incentive for reducing emissions, for each ton of sulfur dioxide reduced below the applicable emissions limit, owners of a generating unit received an emissions allowance they could use at another unit, keep for future use, or sell. This legitimized a market for sulfur dioxide emissions allowances, administered by the Chicago Board of Trade. . . .

Experts argue that the cap-and-trade system of SO2 emissions reduction has reduced the cost of controlling acid rain by as much as 80% versus source-by-source reduction (i.e. a straight cap.)
======

>The only thing that CO2 seems to do is make trees grow.

Some simple science experiments you can do:

Get a clear tank. Shine an infrared source of light through it. Measure the amount of IR that comes out the other end. Increase the concentration of CO2. Now measure it again.

Get a tank of water. Expose it to an atmosphere containing 280ppm of CO2. Measure the pH of the water. Now expose to an atmosphere containing 500ppm of CO2. Measure the pH of the water again.

Those two experiments will let you prove to yourself how wrong you are.

>Like I said, if it was truly dangerous, there would just be a Cap and that is it.

Why use a more expensive, more limiting program when a more flexible and effective program will do a better job? Is it that you feel you do not pay enough in taxes, and would prefer to pay more? If so, fine; feel free to send in some extra money to the IRS. In the meantime we'll stick with the system that has been proven to be more effective.

[kallend 1,652]

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Cap and trade treats carbon emmissions as a commodity. It's like freaking orange juice. You want more, you buy more from others who want less. It is as pure as capitalism can get.

Why do you hate capitalism?

The Carbon Credit market would be a market entirely created by and maintained by the governement. At the moment there is absolutely no demand for carbon credits. There will not be demand for carbon credits except that businesses will have to purchase them to avoid other forms of federal regulations and penalties (taxes). Captialism, indeed.

You should learn a little history. Free market Republicans pretty much invented "cap and trade". And it has been proven to work.

www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/Presence-of-Mind-Blue-Sky-Thinking.html

the thread has blown up since my post a while a go. To this specific point, Cap and trade is a scam.

What Reagan did was Cap, and that is it. SO2 was causing acid rain, which is very provable, and had to be controlled. It was capped and the problem was solved, period.

Incorrect on both counts. Trading SO2 credits was all part of the scheme, and the energy industry "proved" to its own satisfaction that its emissions had nothing to do with acid rain.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jgoose71 0]

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Some simple science experiments you can do:

Get a clear tank. Shine an infrared source of light through it. Measure the amount of IR that comes out the other end. Increase the concentration of CO2. Now measure it again.

Get a tank of water. Expose it to an atmosphere containing 280ppm of CO2. Measure the pH of the water. Now expose to an atmosphere containing 500ppm of CO2. Measure the pH of the water again.

I will agree that your expriment will work if you can agree that the globe is cooling, ice caps are making a come back, and polar bear populations are on the rise. All verifiable facts also that Al Gore dodges in interviews.

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Why use a more expensive, more limiting program when a more flexible and effective program will do a better job? Is it that you feel you do not pay enough in taxes, and would prefer to pay more? If so, fine; feel free to send in some extra money to the IRS. In the meantime we'll stick with the system that has been proven to be more effective.

It's not working so well for the liberal European Utopia. There industries are in the crapper and gas prices peaked at over $9 a gallon last year. Right now they are hovering at between $6 and $7 a gallon. I really don't want to see that for the U.S. I would like to see our manufacturers able to compete with China and India.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[jgoose71 0]

And you are barred in being one of my employees at "Fertilize America Inc." The window to cash in will be small before the economy really tanks. I will just take my millions and run.

Don't get the wrong idea. When I will the lottery and I can afford it I am going to put solar panels on my roof and a wind mill in my back yard despite the cries of my neighbors. I'm not doing it for global warming, I'm doing it because I would like to see the US in energy independence.

And I think electric cars are cool

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[kallend 1,652]

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Some simple science experiments you can do:

Get a clear tank. Shine an infrared source of light through it. Measure the amount of IR that comes out the other end. Increase the concentration of CO2. Now measure it again.

Get a tank of water. Expose it to an atmosphere containing 280ppm of CO2. Measure the pH of the water. Now expose to an atmosphere containing 500ppm of CO2. Measure the pH of the water again.

I will agree that your expriment will work if you can agree that the globe is cooling, ice caps are making a come back, and polar bear populations are on the rise. All verifiable facts also that Al Gore dodges in interviews.

.

The deep ocean is warming. That represents a lot of heat. It's not ALL about the atmosphere and the icecaps.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[brenthutch 388]

Here it comes; the warmie sort of cooling.

[brenthutch 388]

Are you saying that a cap and trade scheme in the US will result in lower global temps?

[brenthutch 388]

At first I thought that billvon and kallend were worthy antagonists in a substantive debate; but after the last few posts I felt cheated . Apparently you lack the intellectual gravitas I gave you credit for.

To break it down would be tedious; but if you want me to I will.

[jgoose71 0]

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At first I thought that billvon and kallend were worthy antagonists in a substantive debate; but after the last few posts I felt cheated . Apparently you lack the intellectual gravitas I gave you credit for.

To break it down would be tedious; but if you want me to I will.

Tell you what Brent, since Kallend won't be working for me at "Fertilize America" do you want his job? We can use the profits to buy ourselves some kick ass Tesla Roadsters.

Powered by Lithium batteries mined in South Africa and assembled in China of course. We don't want any more Americans dying in mines or having industrial accidents.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[billvon 2,436]

>I will agree that your expriment will work if you can agree that the globe is cooling,

Since 2005 it has cooled on average. On a decadal scale it is indeed warming.

>It's not working so well for the liberal European Utopia. There industries
>are in the crapper and gas prices peaked at over $9 a gallon last year.

Correct. And in the UK, taxes amount to over 60% of the cost of fuel. Right now it's running around $7 a gallon - which is about the same as gasoline here once you take away the tax. (~16% in the US.)

D'oh!

[airtwardo 6]

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No! The gov't cutting spending and stop offering every Dick Tom and Harry a free ride or some new entitlement would satisfy my concerns.

Which programs do you consider entitlements? Unemployment insurance (for which workers pay premiums)? Social Security, for which workers pay FICA? Medicare, for which workers pay dedicated taxes?

Cutting the defense budget by 50% would still leave us the most powerful nation in the history of the world and would save a bundle.

How 'bout we induct welfare recipients INTO the military?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[jgoose71 0]

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>I will agree that your expriment will work if you can agree that the globe is cooling,

Since 2005 it has cooled on average. On a decadal scale it is indeed warming.

>It's not working so well for the liberal European Utopia. There industries
>are in the crapper and gas prices peaked at over $9 a gallon last year.

Correct. And in the UK, taxes amount to over 60% of the cost of fuel. Right now it's running around $7 a gallon - which is about the same as gasoline here once you take away the tax. (~16% in the US.)

D'oh!

So what your saying is you want to give 60% of your earning to the government? Go for it my friend. I would like to keep what I earn and spend it on my family.....

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[billvon 2,436]

>So what your saying is you want to give 60% of your earning to the
>government?

Nope! You completely missed the point.