Please help re Glen Beck

[brenthutch 388]

I take Pres Obama at his word. Are you calling our president a liar?

[brenthutch 388]

Really? You don’t know the difference between co2 and so2?? Take a chemistry class and get back to me on that one.

[DanG 1]

Reading comprehension much?

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So a company would be forced to pay a tax and whoever agree's or can pay the highest wins?

It's not a tax. It is a purchase of a valuable good for due consideration. That's what an auction is. Capitalism, apparently you don't like it much.

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What about small business's that cannot afford what Dupont, Exxon/Mobil, or some other huge company is willing to pay or can afford?

Small business that don't emit substantial amounts of carbon won't need to buy carbon credits. If they do emit lots of carbon, then they are either not that small, or they need to factor the cost of that carbon into their manufacturing budget.

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And you think they will just give them away at a loss?

Um, no. There's that pesky capitalism again. You should move to China, you'd be happier there.

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Dupont od someone can come in and buy up everything and then inflate the price to a level that a small machine shop would not be able to afford.

1. I already said there would be anti-monopoly rules, just like any other industry. 2. A small machine shop would have no need for carbon credits. See above.

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This is such a flawed plan and will do nothing to help American workers.

Wow, you are really all about the workers. Again, China sounds like your kind of place. Workers of the world unite!

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I would love to see how a dropzone would handle this. I wonder how much jump tickets would sky rocket just to fund cap & trade

Most DZ's (if not all DZ's) would not need to purchase carbon credits.

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No! The gov't cutting spending and stop offering every Dick Tom and Harry a free ride or some new entitlement would satisfy my concerns.

How is cap and trade a free ride? Or is that just the party line that you are contracturally obligated the spew at least once per post?

- Dan G

[rushmc 18]

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Cap and trade treats carbon emmissions as a commodity. It's like freaking orange juice. You want more, you buy more from others who want less. It is as pure as capitalism can get.

Who hands out the credits? The govt? Thats not capitalism. Thats just another way for the Govt to take our money and spend more in the form of another tax. That is NOT capitalism!

It works for SO2, and Reagan was as capitalist as they come.

Explain why it's good for SO2 and not for CO2. Is it simply the right's hatred for Al Gore?

CO2 is not a polutant
If you say it is you had better stop breathing

And to head off your too much CO2 is a polutant, so it would be for O2

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[DanG 1]

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CO2 is not a polutant
If you say it is you had better stop breathing

So, the only test for a pollutant is whether or not you can tolerate it in the air you breathe without keeling over instantly?

If that's your test, there are only a very few things that are pollutants. VX nerve agent comes to mind. Chlorine gas is obviously not a pollutant, since I eat salt all the time, and it has chlorine in it. Anything I can put in my body, in any form, and not die in minutes is not a pollutant. Got it. Well argued.

- Dan G

[billvon 2,446]

>See jgoose71's post.

I did. To address his points:

>The costs of "extra carbon" will get passed to you, the consumer,
>further killing any industry left in America.

This is, of course, bullshit. We implemented cap and trade for SOx, even though power companies claimed it would bankrupt them and make electricity unaffordable. That was a bullshit claim. Ford claimed that catalytic converters would cause Ford to "shut down." That was a bullshit claim, too. Chrysler claimed that the EPA CAFE rules would force everyone into subcompact (or smaller) cars within five years. That was in 1975; looks like that was bullshit too. Ford said the same laws would require everyone to drive Pintos in the future. Are you driving your government-mandated Pinto now?

People use such statements because they hope to make people afraid; fear is a great motivatior, even if the statement makes no sense. Let's look at the scary statements above:

"killing any industry left in america" - unsubstantiated bullshit. But it sure is scary! I could lose my job, my home and starve to death!

"Gas companies will have to jack their prices up to $9 a gallon" - unsubstantiated bullshit. But it sure is scary! $9 a gallon! Wow!

Whenever one company stands to lose some profit to another company, they claim that that will "destroy america" "end life as we know it" "force everyone into unsafe midget cars" etc etc. They make such statements, of course, because if they can manipulate public opinion, and thus politics, to achieve a greater profit for their company, they get a big raise/promotion.

As RushMC always says, follow the money.

>But let me ask you, what do you like about cap and trade?

It is a market based solution; those tend to work better than fiat-based solutions, provided the market is functional.

>How much will the temps go down when our electric bills "necessarily
>skyrocket"

Likely not at all.

> Do you understand the concept of opportunity costs?

Yes. Do you think that a free market works better than governmental fiats?

[Rookie120 0]

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It's not a tax. It is a purchase of a valuable good for due consideration. That's what an auction is. Capitalism, apparently you don't like it much.

With the Govt collecting the money. It's a tax in disguise.

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Small business that don't emit substantial amounts of carbon won't need to buy carbon credits. If they do emit lots of carbon, then they are either not that small, or they need to factor the cost of that carbon into their manufacturing budget.

Say goodbye to even more jobs here.

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Um, no. There's that pesky capitalism again. You should move to China, you'd be happier there.

Really? The givt controlling the credits and taking the money sounds more like china to me. You keep calling it capitilism but if the company cannot pay the TAX they will just close up shop.

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Wow, you are really all about the workers. Again, China sounds like your kind of place. Workers of the world unite!

What the hell are you taslking about? I'm about keeping compaies here in THIS country so they can employ AMERICAN workers. You on the other hand want to impose this TAX (Yes it is a tax whether you like it or not)which will do nothing but give this Govt more control and even more money to piss away.

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Most DZ's (if not all DZ's) would not need to purchase carbon credits.

Why not? So as long as the tax doesn' affect you fuck everybody else?

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How is cap and trade a free ride? Or is that just the party line that you are contracturally obligated the spew at least once per post?

Reading comprehension much?

You said

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In my plan, the money raised by the auction would go directly into debt repayment. Would that satisfy your concerns?

And I replied with cut spending and not taxing more. Seems like a foreign oncept with the govt these days. Dont spend what you dont have.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[Rookie120 0]

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Whenever one company stands to lose some profit to another company

Losing profit to another company is not my problem. The Govt taking more to keep up with the out of control spending is what I dont like.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[billvon 2,446]

>The Govt taking more to keep up with the out of control spending is what I
>dont like.

Agreed, but that's a separate problem.

[rushmc 18]

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CO2 is not a polutant
If you say it is you had better stop breathing

So, the only test for a pollutant is whether or not you can tolerate it in the air you breathe without keeling over instantly?

If that's your test, there are only a very few things that are pollutants. VX nerve agent comes to mind. Chlorine gas is obviously not a pollutant, since I eat salt all the time, and it has chlorine in it. Anything I can put in my body, in any form, and not die in minutes is not a pollutant. Got it. Well argued.

Hmmmm

Seems you are putting words on others mouths

It that the same?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[brenthutch 388]

Do you understand economics much?

Big company (electric utility) pays for carbon credit, and that cost is passed down to EVERYONE who uses electricity. (EVEN IF YOUR POWER IS NOT PRODUCED BY COAL YOUR COSTS WILL GO UP AS WELL (if you don’t understand this take a macro econ class))
A small business will pass those costs down to its consumers if the market will bear it. If the market won’t; that company shuts down, people get laid off, and jobs go to China and India. Which coincidentally will make those same products at a much higher co2 output making the whole exercise counter productive from an environmental perspective.

Question...Why do you hate the earth?

[brenthutch 388]

the ecology of the planet?

Take a look to see what happens to a poor little plant when it is exposed to high levels of this co2 pollutant the earth?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2qVNK6zFgE

Talk about going green!

[brenthutch 388]

forget "the earth" from prev post.

[idrankwhat 0]

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Explain why it's good for SO2 and not for CO2.

The group VIb lobby is more influential than the group IVb lobby. Also, since carbon tends to share its four electrons to form stable bonds, it's obviously socialist and something to be avoided in this political climate. Sulfur tends to gain electrons, becoming doubly negatively charged in its efforts towards stability.....not unlike Beck.

Don't believe me? Just look at the periodic table. Sulfur is to the right of carbon. However many in the mainstream media will prefer to state that carbon is far left of sulfur when in actuality carbon is still quite obviously right of center.

[idrankwhat 0]

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And to head off your too much CO2 is a polutant, so it would be for O2

Absolutely. Actually it would be much worse, especially for smokers (but not for long).

[rushmc 18]

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And to head off your too much CO2 is a polutant, so it would be for O2

Absolutely. Actually it would be much worse, especially for smokers (but not for long).

Would get interesting

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[DanG 1]

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Do you understand economics much?

Big company (electric utility) pays for carbon credit, and that cost is passed down to EVERYONE who uses electricity. (EVEN IF YOUR POWER IS NOT PRODUCED BY COAL YOUR COSTS WILL GO UP AS WELL (if you don’t understand this take a macro econ class))
A small business will pass those costs down to its consumers if the market will bear it. If the market won’t; that company shuts down, people get laid off, and jobs go to China and India. Which coincidentally will make those same products at a much higher co2 output making the whole exercise counter productive from an environmental perspective.

I never disputed that energy costs would rise in the short term. I disputed Rookie's notion that every business would have to buy carbon credits.

And yes, if a small business can't make a product for the cost people are willing to pay, then they won't make a profit. I would argue that if everyone's costs go up (as you state), then the competitive advantage will go to the more efficient company, as it should be. Why so down on capitalism?

The exportation of jobs to China and India is a separate (although arguably related) problem. Giving American business free reign to pollute as they wish hasn't kept American jobs here so far. Maybe we need a better strategy to deal with that problem.

- Dan G

[jakee 1,262]

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Yes I know extremists garbage, yada yada yada, but where are the lies? Are the connections he asserts untrue? He is clearly a whack job so it should be easy to debunk him without resorting to ad hominem attacks. On a factual basis, where is he wrong?

You still haven't said what his assertions were... but if Coreece's summary is accurate, how on earth can anyone refute allegations based on alleged secret agreements?

How can anyone prove to you that a secret backdoor deal between any two parties does not exist? The whole point of a secret agreement is that it is secret. No-one can prove to you that it doesn't exist, only that if it did, they don't know about it.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 2,446]

>Big company (electric utility) pays for carbon credit, and that cost is
>passed down to EVERYONE who uses electricity.

Mine won't. I'll get more money back.

>A small business will pass those costs down to its consumers if the
>market will bear it.

If not, they may choose to purchase a cheaper source of energy to remain competitive. Or, if they don't, a new more efficient company will do so, out compete them, hire their employees and provide the service/product more efficiently. Capitalism at work.

[brenthutch 388]

So what is this cheaper energy source you speak of. Solar = 10x$ vs. coal

[Southern_Man 0]

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Cap and trade treats carbon emmissions as a commodity. It's like freaking orange juice. You want more, you buy more from others who want less. It is as pure as capitalism can get.

Why do you hate capitalism?

The Carbon Credit market would be a market entirely created by and maintained by the governement. At the moment there is absolutely no demand for carbon credits. There will not be demand for carbon credits except that businesses will have to purchase them to avoid other forms of federal regulations and penalties (taxes). Captialism, indeed.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[kallend 1,654]

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I take Pres Obama at his word. Are you calling our president a liar?

You can't answer the question honestly, I see.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,654]

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Really? You don’t know the difference between co2 and so2?? Take a chemistry class and get back to me on that one.

Are you having a little reading comprehension problem today, Brent?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[brenthutch 388]

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Cap & Trade seems to work well for SO2 emissions. Of course, the right wouldn't whine about that since Saint Ronald Reagan had a big hand in implementing it.

Yep and we sure haven't lost any manufacturing jobs to India and China since then.

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[kallend 1,654]

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Cap & Trade seems to work well for SO2 emissions. Of course, the right wouldn't whine about that since Saint Ronald Reagan had a big hand in implementing it.

Yep and we sure haven't lost any manufacturing jobs to India and China since then.

Are you (a) whining about a Reagan initiative, and (b) claiming that SO2 emission controls led to the loss of jobs to India and China?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.