Cartoon offends a major religion

[ryoder 1,400]

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Islam doesn't have a Church structure therefore 'leaders ' are local and not pan-islamic therefore i'd argue that it was a good analogy.

Read up on the differences between Sunni and Shia.
In a nutshell:
- Sunni are like the Protestants, with many independent branches.
- Shia are like the Catholics, with a rigid hierarchy.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[likearock 1]

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Islam doesn't have a Church structure therefore 'leaders ' are local and not pan-islamic therefore i'd argue that it was a good analogy.

Really? So what's the Christian equivalent for Ayatollah Khomeini, the recognized leader of all Shia Islam, issuing a death fatwa against Salman Rushdie over a book?

[Andy9o8 0]

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Ayatollah Khomeini, the recognized leader of all Shia Islam,

He was the spiritual leader of the Shia branch (one of many branches of Islam) in Iran, not all Shia Islam. In any event, analogies are weak structures at best, and yours is getting quite strained; and parsing analogies gets silly. Roman Catholicism is what it is, and Islam is what it is.

[Skyrad 0]

I'm from a Sunni background, I forgot about the Shia structure

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[likearock 1]

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Ayatollah Khomeini, the recognized leader of all Shia Islam,

He was the spiritual leader of the Shia branch (one of many branches of Islam) in Iran, not all Shia Islam. In any event, analogies are weak structures at best, and yours is getting quite strained; and parsing analogies gets silly. Roman Catholicism is what it is, and Islam is what it is.

Nothing strained about the fact that someone just published a cartoon of a priest giving Jesus Christ a blowjob. Where are the huge, worldwide Christian mobs calling for that cartoonist's death like the Muslim mobs were for the Danish cartoonist who drew Mohammed with a turban bomb?

[Skyrad 0]

Never mind about the calls for beheading of the 'artist' but where is the calls for respect? Where are the calls of outrage? Don't the Christians care? If they don't is it really suprising that no one else seems to either?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[RackJR 0]

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Nothing strained about the fact that someone just published a cartoon of a priest giving Jesus Christ a blowjob. Where are the huge, worldwide Christian mobs calling for that cartoonist's death like the Muslim mobs were for the Danish cartoonist who drew Mohammed with a turban bomb?

When christianity held power the way the islamic leaders still do, they would have executed the person who published this cartoon. they certainly executed untold numbers for far less (women as young as 2 years old executed for witchcraft). if you're going to argue that they wouldn't do that today, right afterward you should thank the secular contingent of society that fought against that power. the fact that your religion has force evolved through societal pressure doesn't mean you should be throwing stones at islam.

BTW i believe extra frames were added to that danish cartoon, specifically the offensive one's. part of the reason the newspaper did not apologize. the extra frames were added by the islamic religious leaders to incite anger. wasn't there a thread recently about some christian bimbo invoking leviticus against homosexuals? you sure your religion isn't exactly the same as islam, just in different stages of your life cycle (and therefore different power positions)?

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[Skyrad 0]

Some good points there

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[maadmax 0]

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Never mind about the calls for beheading of the 'artist' but where is the calls for respect? Where are the calls of outrage? Don't the Christians care? If they don't is it really suprising that no one else seems to either?

I don't care, other than a sense of sadness for the anger consuming the cartoonist and for those who take delight in his rage. I am complete and fulfilled in my relationship with God. The howling from those with darkened souls around me is irrelevant to the reality of God.

[likearock 1]

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Nothing strained about the fact that someone just published a cartoon of a priest giving Jesus Christ a blowjob. Where are the huge, worldwide Christian mobs calling for that cartoonist's death like the Muslim mobs were for the Danish cartoonist who drew Mohammed with a turban bomb?

When christianity held power the way the islamic leaders still do, they would have executed the person who published this cartoon. they certainly executed untold numbers for far less (women as young as 2 years old executed for witchcraft). if you're going to argue that they wouldn't do that today, right afterward you should thank the secular contingent of society that fought against that power. the fact that your religion has force evolved through societal pressure doesn't mean you should be throwing stones at islam.

Let's see if I have this right. Is it your position that I don't have the right to condemn things that are clearly wrong (such as death threats against someone for a book or cartoon) if at one time my predecessors committed some similar evil? That could be pretty limiting. Does it just apply to religion or would I also not be able to come out against say modern-day slavery, for example?

[Squeak 17]

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Ayatollah Khomeini, the recognized leader of all Shia Islam,

Nothing strained about the fact that someone just published a cartoon of a priest giving Jesus Christ a blowjob. Where are the huge, worldwide Christian mobs calling for that cartoonist's death like the Muslim mobs were for the Danish cartoonist who drew Mohammed with a turban bomb?

I didn't see a cartoon of a Bishop Giving a blow job to a crucifix.
That must just be your dirty minded interpretation of an ambiguous image.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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[Squeak 17]

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I don't care, other than a sense of sadness for the anger consuming the cartoonist and for those who take delight in his rage. I am complete and fulfilled in my relationship with God. The howling from those with darkened souls around me is irrelevant to the YOUR reality of God.

FIFY

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[likearock 1]

Isaiah 43:8

[Squeak 17]

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Isaiah 43:8

I prefer 3 wise monkeys


and BTW that chapter and verse refers to False Idols. Set you context correctly if you are trying to show me up

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[likearock 1]

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Isaiah 43:8

I prefer 3 wise monkeys


and BTW that chapter and verse refers to False Idols. Set you context correctly if you are trying to show me up

Hey, I'm not a Bible scholar

What I tried to point out is you can see that "ambiguous" cartoon as completely innocent just the same way as people saw those priests who found themselves in odd but also ambiguous situations. There's a powerful impulse to not see evil even when it's right in front of you.

[Squeak 17]

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Isaiah 43:8

I prefer 3 wise monkeys


and BTW that chapter and verse refers to False Idols. Set you context correctly if you are trying to show me up

Hey, I'm not a Bible scholar

What I tried to point out is you can see that "ambiguous" cartoon as completely innocent just the same way as people saw those priests who found themselves in odd but also ambiguous situations. There's a powerful impulse to not see evil even when it's right in front of you.

There's an even more powerful impulse to see evil even when NOT there

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[RackJR 0]

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Let's see if I have this right. Is it your position that I don't have the right to condemn things that are clearly wrong (such as death threats against someone for a book or cartoon) if at one time my predecessors committed some similar evil?

not at all. i think it's good for people to condemn things that are clearly wrong.

however, it seemed from the tone of your post that you share a religious outlook with the people who made those threats. your own tenets talk about not casting stones at others. you do it anyway. so, if you're going to hold christianity up as the standard, and say that no christians are issuing death threats at the moment because you're such good, tolerant people, i'm going to point out that you were not so tolerant at one time. as it stands, many of your adherents are not tolerant today, and if they could, would restore the church to the power position it enjoyed for thousands of years. worldwide, the christian church is still incredibly powerful. but your history is not laudable. if christianity still held power the way it did in the dark ages, it would still be the dark ages!! we fought our way out from that strangle hold, to be in our current position. you're only able to stand on the moral high ground that you seem to enjoy here because athiests or agnostics or secularists or whatever you want to call them fought with their lives against the institution, and won the right to dissent. hopefully someday the people of muslim belief will share your distaste for the issuance of death threats for something like a cartoon (or anything else). i didn't say you didn't have the right to condemn it. i said you should thank the secular contingent of society for the rights we all currently hold. it was more of a jab to get you to see that you are not unlike them. your history is the same as theirs. you're just at a different point in it than they are. your time of power has (hopefully) ended. theirs is still going on.

when everyone can condemn the things that are simply wrong, no matter what belief system you cling to, perhaps the world will have taken a step forward.

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[likearock 1]

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Let's see if I have this right. Is it your position that I don't have the right to condemn things that are clearly wrong (such as death threats against someone for a book or cartoon) if at one time my predecessors committed some similar evil?

not at all. i think it's good for people to condemn things that are clearly wrong.

however, it seemed from the tone of your post that you share a religious outlook with the people who made those threats.

You're going to get into trouble trying to judge things from the "tone" of posts. I don't carry water for any religion. Kind of makes your subsequent statements about my own "tenets" and "adherents" look a little ridiculous.

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when everyone can condemn the things that are simply wrong, no matter what belief system you cling to, perhaps the world will have taken a step forward.

I'm pretty even handed in that respect and you would know that if you've been reading all my posts even just in this thread. The pedophilia scandal that's hit Christianity is the worst and has no significant analog in the Muslim world. But the other side of that is to recognize when you're just making excuses for a religion by saying that everyone's done the same thing at one time or another. There's a big difference between stuff that was done hundreds of years ago and the stuff that we see live on CNN.

[RackJR 0]

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You're going to get into trouble trying to judge things from the "tone" of posts.

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my predecessors

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I don't carry water for any religion

kinda contradictory huh? but that's all we have to work with. not knowing you personally, i can read your posts and reply to those. i didn't put words in your mouth. you labeled yourself so.

as far as what i get as your tone, these are your words, and what i was replying to.

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Yeah, but something tells me the bishops won't be issuing "fatwas" to kill the cartoonist any time soon.

-from a previous post

the reality is, if christianity still held power, they wouldn't be wasting time calling for fatwas. they would have the person killed outright, maybe doing it themselves. maybe his family as well. killing people is what they did, and often for far less than a cartoon. you seem to be defending the bishops here, as if they are so tolerant that they won't kill someone for words. i'm saying, if they were still in power, they absolutely would.

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But the other side of that is to recognize when you're just making excuses for a religion by saying that everyone's done the same thing at one time or another. There's a big difference between stuff that was done hundreds of years ago and the stuff that we see live on CNN.

how is it fundamentally different? because our society has (perhaps) moved forward from the outlook of some current muslim societies? because the coverage is better? maybe it's different for you, if christianity is your flavor. but religion is all the same to me. it's a struggle for power.
i don't make excuses for anyone, and certainly not for christianity. it seems like that's what you're doing here. religion is about control over the masses based on fairy tales, and deaths that result from those beliefs are abhorrent, regardless of which fairy tale you subscribe to. you are saying christianity is different. i disagree. one is 2400 years old, one is 900 years old. one is now only executing the occasional abortion doctor, and not typically all those who dissent with their words (thanks to long a process which claimed the lives of countless dissenters). one still is.

are the cartoonists still alive? how about the victims of the inquisition, or the witch trials? maybe you're more right than you think. maybe they are different.

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look a little ridiculous.

the ever predictable attempt to bolster your position by insulting those who engage you. how refreshing.

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don't carry water for any religion

if you're not defending christianity, why get in a twist from my comments? if you are defending christianity, why try to claim otherwise?

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[likearock 1]

Forgive me if I don't get sucked into your game of slicing up the posts and jigsawing them in some way you think supports your position.

Here's the bottom line: it's what's happening now that is the critical issue. That's true for both Catholics and Muslims. As far as Catholics go, I don't give a rat's ass if some other religion used to practice pedophilia in the distant past - if they're not doing it now, it ain't comparable to what's going on with the Catholics. And it's what's going on now that I personally find inexcusable.

Same goes for Islam. But if you keep trying to justify their bad acts by saying everyone did it at some time before, it's pretty clear who's the one making the excuses.

[RackJR 0]

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Same goes for Islam. But if you keep trying to justify their bad acts by saying everyone did it at some time before, it's pretty clear who's the one making the excuses.

where do you get this? doesn't really matter, but seems like you're making this up to maintain an argument? i'm not justifying anyone. your post seemed to be defending the bishops.

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And it's what's going on now that I personally find inexcusable.

me too. so, why the comments about the bishops not issuing fatwas?

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[regulator 0]

You can debate this issue til the cows come home and nothing will resolve the fact that a vast majority of the wars in history had something to do with religion and many, many people died because of their beliefs as to who the 'better' god was. I believe in god, but my relationship with him is private and I don't go out and admonish people because they don't believe in my particular god. Why can't everyone accept that more than one people's belief in god could be vastly different than someone else and just leave it at that...then go jump together. If we could get all the religious leaders to get some quality skydives in, we could create our own religion.

[likearock 1]

Jesus just left Chicago
And he's bound for New Orleans...