jcd11235 0 #51 January 2, 2010 QuoteWhen are you going to demand the same of your good buddies?? What good buddies would those be? I expect all international actors obey international law.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #52 January 2, 2010 Quotethis article is a repetitive opinion on whether or not it is effective and to what extent. there is no "data" to counter. The article makes ten assertions w/r/t the sieze of Gaza. You claim the assertions are false. If you want to refute the points, you need data to do so. Quotethe simple fact remains. as lomg as Gaza is goverened by a terroristic entity that wages war against it. Israel has every right not to supply Gaza with anything. You seem to be ignorant of the Geneva Conventions. You are citing a "right" that Israel does not have. Quotehaving said that, Israel does allow for supplies to go in and you're forgetting the pretty long border between Gaza and Egypt. Even the US has been criticizing Israel for not properly allowing humanitarian supplies through to Gaza. Quotewhether the blockade is effective or not? in some ways it is, in some ways it isn't. It's effective as a punitive measure against the civilians of Gaza. It doesn't seem to be effective in other manners, though. Quoteit still doesn't mean Israel should keep an open border with someone who is constantly attacking it. Israel, like the US, seems oblivious of the detrimental effects their foreign policy has on their own national interests. Perhaps Israel should have considered fully upholding its part of the June 2008 truce agreement with Hamas.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #53 January 2, 2010 QuoteThe article makes ten assertions w/r/t the sieze of Gaza. You claim the assertions are false. If you want to refute the points, you need data to do so. no, it claims that it is not an effective measure. effectiveness is not binary and while I agree with some of the points, I completely disagree with others. just to make a point (not comparing the two). should the US stop patrolling it southern border? illegal immigrant still flow in, so its not effective. so why bother? QuoteYou seem to be ignorant of the Geneva Conventions I'm really not. Israel is doing its best to abide by it. it's kind of hard when facing an enemy which: fires from civilian buildings, hides explosives in schools and mosques, doesn't distinguish itself from civilian population by wearing uniforms and constantly targeting civilians in Israel. all of which are prerequisites to the Geneva convention parts protecting civilians. you can't fire from a school and then expect it to be protected as a civilian structure. if you use your own civilians as human shields, it is you who violates the rules of engagement and turned your civilians into targets. QuoteIt's effective as a punitive measure against the civilians of Gaza. its not a punitive measure. its a result of the actions of their (elected?) government "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #54 January 2, 2010 Quoteshould the US stop patrolling it southern border? illegal immigrant still flow in, so its not effective. so why bother? There is some wisdom in that philosophy. Patrolling the border is a measure of last resort. If it's necessary, it indicates only that illegal immigration measures made elsewhere are ineffective. QuoteQuoteYou seem to be ignorant of the Geneva Conventions I'm really not. Israel is doing its best to abide by it. I find that extremely difficult to believe. If they're doing their best, they're displaying incompetence with respect to acting lawfully. QuoteQuoteIt's effective as a punitive measure against the civilians of Gaza. its not a punitive measure. its a result of the actions of their (elected?) government Then the Israeli people should vote out the government officials making such policy decisions. They own their government and their government's mistakes.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #55 January 2, 2010 QuoteI find that extremely difficult to believe Then you don't know Israel, Israelis and what they believe in. there is no way to completely avoid hurting civilians when Hamas hides behind them. what should Israel do? no fire back when being fired upon? QuoteThen the Israeli people should vote out the government officials making such policy decisions I meant the Hamas government in Gaza which declared open war on Israel. funny you don't say the people in Gaza "own their government and their government's mistakes". double standards again? "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #56 January 2, 2010 Quotewhat should Israel do? no fire back when being fired upon? Stop giving others reason to fire upon Israel. For example, they could negotiate in good faith, i.e., hold up their end of negotiated truce agreements. QuoteQuoteThen the Israeli people should vote out the government officials making such policy decisions I meant the Hamas government in Gaza which declared open war on Israel. funny you don't say the people in Gaza "own their government and their government's mistakes". double standards again? People in Gaza own their government's mistakes, also. Hamas is no better or worse than the Israeli government. However, it is Israel that has been illegally occupying territories beyond their internationally recognized borders.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #57 January 2, 2010 QuoteQuotewhat should Israel do? no fire back when being fired upon? Stop giving others reason to fire upon Israel. For example, they could negotiate in good faith, i.e., hold up their end of negotiated truce agreements. QuoteQuoteThen the Israeli people should vote out the government officials making such policy decisions I meant the Hamas government in Gaza which declared open war on Israel. funny you don't say the people in Gaza "own their government and their government's mistakes". double standards again? People in Gaza own their government's mistakes, also. Hamas is no better or worse than the Israeli government. However, it is Israel that has been illegally occupying territories beyond their internationally recognized borders. Are you really this nieve??? Hamas and Hezbollah and the masters in Teheran.. are not interested in any kind of negotiation. They wish one thing.. wiping Israel off the face of the earth and the people there with it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #58 January 2, 2010 QuoteStop giving others reason to fire upon Israel such as existing? QuotePeople in Gaza own their government's mistakes, also. Hamas is no better or worse than the Israeli government. However, it is Israel that has been illegally occupying territories beyond their internationally recognized borders. you do know that Israel has not been in Gaza for years, right? When Israel pulled out, the Palestinians could have taken the opportunity and prove they can make it on their own. instead they kept firing and then Hamas took over and things became really crappy. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 192 #59 January 2, 2010 Gosh, I have a solution. What do you say that Israel resolves to immediately grant every Muslim precisely the same level of rights and protection as is afforded to Jews in Muslim lands. Boy, would that straighten things out! BSBD, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #60 January 2, 2010 QuoteWhat do you say that Israel resolves to immediately grant every Muslim precisely the same level of rights and protection as is afforded to Jews in Muslim lands Thank you, but no. Israel has about 20% muslim citizens and they have the exact same civil rights as any other citizens (beside the duty to serve in the military). the Palestinians in the west bank and Gaza are not Israeli citizens, they are citizens of the Palestinian Authority, which should/could have been a Palestinian state by now. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #61 January 2, 2010 Quote When Israel pulled out, the Palestinians could have taken the opportunity and prove they can make it on their own. instead they kept firing and then Hamas took over and things became really crappy. hamas were elected (they were also heavily supported by israel in their early days)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #62 January 2, 2010 QuoteQuoteStop giving others reason to fire upon Israel such as existing? Pretty much. If JCD isn't going to hold the attackers accountable for their own actions, that only leaves you Jews the option to kill yourselves and end the conflict once and for all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #63 January 2, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteStop giving others reason to fire upon Israel such as existing? Pretty much. If JCD isn't going to hold the attackers accountable for their own actions, that only leaves you Jews the option to kill yourselves and end the conflict once and for all. you're suggesting holding israel reponsible for its war crimes in gaza?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #64 January 2, 2010 QuoteAre you really this nieve??? If by "nieve," you mean "able to form an objective opinion," then, yes. I'm that "nieve." QuoteHamas and Hezbollah and the masters in Teheran.. are not interested in any kind of negotiation. It's Israel that hasn't upheld their end of the 2008 truce agreement. It sounds like Israel are the ones who aren't willing to negotiate in good faith.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #65 January 2, 2010 QuoteQuoteStop giving others reason to fire upon Israel such as existing? Such as war crimes and illegal occupations. Until you can acknowledge that Israel should be held to the same standards as other international actors, you're going to be unable to objectively consider Israel's actions. Quoteyou do know that Israel has not been in Gaza for years, right? Perhaps the words "The Siege of Gaza" missed your attention. Or, perhaps you don't understand the difference between siege and occupation. Is it your assertion that Israel occupies no territory beyond the UN recognized borders of Israel?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #66 January 2, 2010 QuoteIs it your assertion that Israel occupies no territory beyond the UN recognized borders of Israel? as far as Gaza goes. exactly. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #67 January 2, 2010 Quote If JCD isn't going to hold the attackers accountable for their own actions, that only leaves you Jews the option to kill yourselves and end the conflict once and for all. As usual, you've mischaracterized my position. Is your reading comprehension really that deficient?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #68 January 2, 2010 QuoteQuoteIs it your assertion that Israel occupies no territory beyond the UN recognized borders of Israel? as far as Gaza goes. exactly. Try answering the question completely. We aren't talking about only Gaza.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #69 January 2, 2010 your whole post was about Gaza. now that you've reached a dead end you want to change it? fine. the exact israeli border in the west bank is yet to be set by negotiations (and not for lack of trying). there is no official recognized borders. the general belief is that Israel should pull out from the west bank. this is also the view of most Israelis. problem is that it can't do it unless there is someone who can take control over there. judging from what happened in Gaza when Israel pulled out, doing so without an agreement will lead to another terroristic entity which will not be a good thing for anybody. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #70 January 2, 2010 Quoteyour whole post was about Gaza. Incorrect.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #71 January 2, 2010 Quote your whole post was about Gaza. now that you've reached a dead end you want to change it? fine. the exact israeli border in the west bank is yet to be set by negotiations (and not for lack of trying). there is no official recognized borders. the general belief is that Israel should pull out from the west bank. this is also the view of most Israelis. problem is that it can't do it unless there is someone who can take control over there. judging from what happened in Gaza when Israel pulled out, doing so without an agreement will lead to another terroristic entity which will not be a good thing for anybody. israel should also let back the refugees they terrorised out of their homes stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #72 January 2, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteIs it your assertion that Israel occupies no territory beyond the UN recognized borders of Israel? as far as Gaza goes. exactly. Try answering the question completely. We aren't talking about only Gaza. How come you are not whining about the arabs surrounding Israel that have not taken in the Palestinians...their fellow arabs.. and given them the land of the Saphardic Jews whose lands were confiscated after they were driven off or murdered in large numbers. Did you know the amount of property stolen was 3 times the size of Israel? Got a UN resolution to address that murder and theft there JCD??? Those sound a bit more like war crimes than the paltry abuses by a few IDF. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #73 January 2, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteIs it your assertion that Israel occupies no territory beyond the UN recognized borders of Israel? as far as Gaza goes. exactly. Try answering the question completely. We aren't talking about only Gaza. How come you are not whining about the arabs surrounding Israel that have not taken in the Palestinians...their fellow arabs.. and given them the land of the Saphardic Jews whose lands were confiscated after they were driven off or murdered in large numbers. Did you know the amount of property stolen was 3 times the size of Israel? Got a UN resolution to address that murder and theft there JCD??? Those sound a bit more like war crimes than the paltry abuses by a few IDF. you concede that israel terrorised palestinians out of their homes?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #74 January 2, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteIs it your assertion that Israel occupies no territory beyond the UN recognized borders of Israel? as far as Gaza goes. exactly. Try answering the question completely. We aren't talking about only Gaza. How come you are not whining about the arabs surrounding Israel that have not taken in the Palestinians...their fellow arabs.. and given them the land of the Saphardic Jews whose lands were confiscated after they were driven off or murdered in large numbers. Did you know the amount of property stolen was 3 times the size of Israel? Got a UN resolution to address that murder and theft there JCD??? Those sound a bit more like war crimes than the paltry abuses by a few IDF. you concede that israel terrorised palestinians out of their homes? I concede that a lot of Palistinians joined forces with their arab neighbors to attack Israel just after the state of Israel was declared. They killed a hell of a lot of jews in that period of time.. and eventually they lost.. and ran away so they would not have to live with the people they hated so much. I would say on balance.. the arabs killed and terrorized a lot more jews all across their lands in the late 1940's... you might want to look up those atrocities.. and some of the actions of the Mufti of Jerusalem. Welcome to war.. when you attack and lose you deserve nothing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #75 January 2, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteIs it your assertion that Israel occupies no territory beyond the UN recognized borders of Israel? as far as Gaza goes. exactly. Try answering the question completely. We aren't talking about only Gaza. How come you are not whining about the arabs surrounding Israel that have not taken in the Palestinians...their fellow arabs.. and given them the land of the Saphardic Jews whose lands were confiscated after they were driven off or murdered in large numbers. Did you know the amount of property stolen was 3 times the size of Israel? Got a UN resolution to address that murder and theft there JCD??? Those sound a bit more like war crimes than the paltry abuses by a few IDF. you concede that israel terrorised palestinians out of their homes? I concede that a lot of Palistinians joined forces with their arab neighbors to attack Israel just after the state of Israel was declared. They killed a hell of a lot of jews in that period of time.. and eventually they lost.. and ran away so they would not have to live with the people they hated so much. I would say on balance.. the arabs killed and terrorized a lot more jews all across their lands in the late 1940's... you might want to look up those atrocities.. and some of the actions of the Mufti of Jerusalem. Welcome to war.. when you attack and lose you deserve nothing. you might want to look up how many nuclear warheads israel has got. when will they use them on iran?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
