War profiteering during the Bush Presidency

[Amazon 7]

http://www.warprofiteering.net/


In every war there are those corporations that make an extremely large profit specifically from the war. The scariest offenders are those that have the power to get a government to start a war on their behalf.



The 10 Most Brazen War Profiteers
The history of American war profiteering is rife with egregious examples of incompetence, fraud, tax evasion, embezzlement, bribery and misconduct. As war historian Stuart Brandes has suggested, each new war is infected with new forms of war profiteering. Iraq is no exception. From criminal mismanagement of Iraq’s oil revenues to armed private security contractors operating with virtual impunity, this war has created opportunities for an appalling amount of corruption. What follows is a list of some of the worst Iraq war profiteers who have bilked American taxpayers and undermined the military’s mission.

No. 1 and No. 2: CACI and Titan
No. 3: Bechtel
No. 4: Aegis Defense Services
No. 5: Custer Battles
No. 6: General Dynamics
No. 7: Nour USA Ltd.
No. 8, No. 9 and No. 10: Chevron, ExxonMobil and the Petro-imperialists



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Center for Corporate Policy’s Ten Worst War Profiteers of 2004

In alphabetical order:

1.AEGIS
2.BearingPoint
3.Bechtel
4.BKSH & Associates
5.CACI and Titan
6.Custer Battles
7.Halliburton
8.Lockheed Martin
9.Loral Satellite
10.Qualcomm

[justinb138 0]

So now that Bush is out all the war profiteering is going to stop isn't it?

[Amazon 7]

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So now that Bush is out all the war profiteering is going to stop isn't it?

And prosecutions are finally happening now that their protection is gone.

[justinb138 0]

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So now that Bush is out all the war profiteering is going to stop isn't it?

And prosecutions are finally happening now that their protection is gone.

If that's the case, then good.

And as far as it stopping - I'll believe it when I see it. I'm hoping that things with the war will change, but I've yet to see anything that would make me believe that this guy is much different than the last. (By that I mean Obama doesn't seem averse to 'policing the world').

I try to be positive about this stuff, I just have a hard time seeing this administration going after anyone in the previous administration, as that opens the door for the next admin. to go after them.

[kelpdiver 2]

Nothing partisan about these assessments, are there?

The list that puts the oil companies last, as well as the one that puts a cell phone chip maker on its top ten are not authorities I would put much stock in.

Isn't Billvon a Qualcomm guy? I'm shocked to hear he is a war profiteer.

[brenthutch 390]

Then why do contractors still help run drone strikes in PK?

[Amazon 7]

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Then why do contractors still help run drone strikes in PK?

Probably because of the contracts to the companies who are the recipients of the massive outsourcing of support jobs.

If they are providing value for our tax dollars and not ripping us off that would be refreshing.

Personally I would rescind all of those cost plus contracts that got so out of hand under the previous administration. and reinstate the draft.. with no deferments what so ever for rich boys.. college students or anyone else including women. Let them serve their country in some capacity so they feel part of America. Let them help to rebuild America, its falling apart while we have gotten involved in wasted nationbuilding exercises all over the world, when we need to rebuild and better our own country.
In return they would get a free education after service.. either college or some kind of trade school to prepare them to be productive members of this society. It would reduce the entitlement mentality and allow people to learn to work for their place in society. The biggest plus for the country would be the average american becomes invested in the loss of THEIR children... war becomes personal and hopefully more rare.

[d16842 0]

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http://www.warprofiteering.net/


In every war there are those corporations that make an extremely large profit specifically from the war. The scariest offenders are those that have the power to get a government to start a war on their behalf.

It is good to know we only have companies making extremely high profit during war time, that other companies never seek to make large profits off the government in peacetime or from non-defense programs.

Give me a break! I don't blame any of the companies that make large profits off the government. Why? Because I pay purchasing people who work for the government to negotiate well and get good deals. They are the ones failing to do their jobs, not the companies.

Every time you hear of a $6,000 bolt, or $10,000 toilet seat, remember that someone you paid actually bought it for that. If you are mad about such things, blame the purchasing agent, and his boss, and his boss, right up to the President, and fire them. Until you do, another "greedy" company will always be there.

Tom B

[Gawain 0]

Yeah, Exxon with those glaring 9% net margins are just raping and pillaging. Did you know that Exxon has to buy the oil it refines off the market? Considering the manpower and risk, they're an extraordinary company.

Tell me what you think about these outfits:

The following corporation has (Example 1):
**
$265B Market Cap
24.46% Profit Margin
35.57% Operating Margin
36.82% Return on Equity
$56.3B Gross Revenue
$13.7B Net Profit

The following corporation has (Example 2):
**
$25.35B Market Cap
4.3% Profit Margin
17.15% Operating Margin
12.48% Return on Equity
$15.9B Gross Revenue
$997M Net Profit

The following corporation has (Example 3):
**
$175.33B Market Cap
15.61% Profit Margin
20.96% Operating Margin
23.35% Return on Equity
$36.54 Gross Revenue
$5.7 Net Profit

The following corporation has (Example 4):
**
$26.62 Market Cap
7.49% Profit Margin
11.47% Operating Margin
20.28% Return on Equity
$31.94B Gross Revenue
$2.42B Net Profit

Who are these companies. You can see that two or them are rolling in more cash than stripper in Vegas. And those margins...holy cow, some of these outfits are really fleecing America, and the world for that matter. There are more examples...what should we do about this? I mean, 25% profit margin? Where do these guys think they're doing business?

Ready for the company names?
Example 1: Microsoft
Example 2: Halliburton
Example 3: Apple
Example 4: General Dynamics

But maybe you're right, those companies continue to operate and take advantage of the combat situation, I mean the best food I ever had in the military was while I was in Iraq, and it was solely the fault of KBR Halliburton....and those war mongers at Boeing build the CH-46, which is what the Navy used to fly us into Ramadi...and those bastards at Sikorsky who make the UH-60 Blackhawk that saved my life...only to get operated on in several hospitals whose use of sterile products, some housed in plastic, a product of the that bastard petroleum industry...then loaded on to a C-17 made by Boeing to fly my sorry ass home...where I was operated on and give the use of many products sourced in advanced pastics courtesy of those terrible outfits in the petroleum industry...you're right...We should just leave Bechtel to rot and die, because they don't need to finish their work at Hanford right?...it's so much less important, but at least you can download apps on your iPhone and you can check your email on MS Outlook... ...

I know you're against the war, I completely accept that. What I don't accept is the idea that you really believe this sh*t. Everybody tries to stack the deck in their favor. These companies were competing and building their products regardless of the presence of war, or peace. If anything, I hope you'd keep cheering them on, because the more they give us to arrange these special meetings with 72 virgins and the like...well you know the rest of the story.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Amazon 7]

You do get the concept ofvalue right.. you pay for something and you get something in return.

I am talking about the massive waste and fraud of some of the companies doing business there. I am not talking bout the large contractors that build the weapoins of war.. I am talking about those who run the companies who are taking the money and ripping all of us off.. and there is nothing sacred to them as long as they make dollars in any way that they can.. or hurt our own people to get rich..

Oh what the hell.. whats a few grunts with health problems due to greed...

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5huGVq-YSLd-tN2uHb9Tz12B0oNfQ

Kellogg Brown and Root and its former parent company Halliburton, which at one time was led by former vice president Dick Cheney, had a government contract to destroy waste at US bases and camps in Iraq and Afghanistan.

One lawsuit filed in federal court in Nashville, Tennessee charged that they "ignored their contractual obligations and burned vast quantities of unsorted waste in enormous open air burn pits with no safety controls."

"This misconduct began in 2003 and continues unabated to date," it alleges.

"Every type of waste imaginable was and is burned on these pits, including trucks, tires, lithium battery, Styrofoam, paper, rubber, petroleum-oil-lubricant products, metals, hydraulic fluids, munitions boxes, medical waste, biohazard materials (including human corpses), medical supplies (including those used during smallpox inoculations), paints, solvents, asbestos insulation, items containing pesticides, polyvinyl chloride pipes, animal carcasses, dangerous chemicals and hundreds of thousands of plastic water bottles," the lawsuit claims.

Your good buddy Geroge did absolutely nothing to stop the fraud... so it ran rampant.. what the fuck as long as the right people get rich.. its ok right... I wonder just how much that great food you had there REALLLY cost

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/01/05/cbsnews_investigates/main2334784.shtml

A document — part of a whistleblower lawsuit obtained by CBS News — alleges a blueprint of contractor abuse in Iraq, detailing how the government was billed 10 times more than it should have been when U.S. troops used a recreation facility in Iraq.

That's because they were not billed once per visit, but rather billed repeatedly, every time a soldier used:

a computer

a phone

ping pong equipment or pool equipment

a towel

a bottle of water.

The contractor in question, Kellogg Brown and Root, denies any wrongdoing.

"Eventually we're going to have a bill for about $1 trillion, and people are not going to be able to account for a very, very large part of it," says Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt.


There are HUNDREDS of such cases.. and you and Mike... seem to think its just fine. The Bushes and Cheneys and the owner of their private christian Army there at Xe have done very well... you guys.. not so much.

[Gawain 0]

I was only at TQ for a few days, but for my time there (which had a huge KBR presence), I never saw any huge plumes of smoke. We didn't have any KBR contractors at my camp in Ramadi. At certain outposts, you could see Marine posts, and the area was flat, and I don't recall seeing vast plumes of smoke unless it was started by an airstrike or a firefight. At our post, we had to burn our human waste because there was no plumbing or porta-johns.

I don't know about any recreational facilities, but billing per item doesn't seem out of line, in a way, it positions them to withstand an audit even better.

As for Senator Leahy, it's been nearly three years since that article, what does your boy have to show for it?

*crickets*

That's right....nothing.

You can bash all you want. The waste I saw in government was from bloated programs, not due to some conspiracy headed by some devil to siphon money into a secret account somewhere. The waste is in maintaining the overhead to keep too many bureaucrats in an office somewhere, slowing the efficiency to get anything done.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Amazon 7]

Quote

I was only at TQ for a few days, but for my time there (which had a huge KBR presence), I never saw any huge plumes of smoke. We didn't have any KBR contractors at my camp in Ramadi. At certain outposts, you could see Marine posts, and the area was flat, and I don't recall seeing vast plumes of smoke unless it was started by an airstrike or a firefight. At our post, we had to burn our human waste because there was no plumbing or porta-johns.

I don't know about any recreational facilities, but billing per item doesn't seem out of line, in a way, it positions them to withstand an audit even better.

As for Senator Leahy, it's been nearly three years since that article, what does your boy have to show for it?

*crickets*

That's right....nothing.

You can bash all you want. The waste I saw in government was from bloated programs, not due to some conspiracy headed by some devil to siphon money into a secret account somewhere. The waste is in maintaining the overhead to keep too many bureaucrats in an office somewhere, slowing the efficiency to get anything done.

Sweet all you can think of is bashing.. when billions have been ripped off by those you want to protect?
Amazzzzzzing Max.... that a smart guy like you does not have a problem with all of us getting ripped off.. I mean its going to be your grandkids that are living in the aftermath of this.. I will be long gone.. and so will the America that once was

[Gawain 0]

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Quote

I was only at TQ for a few days, but for my time there (which had a huge KBR presence), I never saw any huge plumes of smoke. We didn't have any KBR contractors at my camp in Ramadi. At certain outposts, you could see Marine posts, and the area was flat, and I don't recall seeing vast plumes of smoke unless it was started by an airstrike or a firefight. At our post, we had to burn our human waste because there was no plumbing or porta-johns.

I don't know about any recreational facilities, but billing per item doesn't seem out of line, in a way, it positions them to withstand an audit even better.

As for Senator Leahy, it's been nearly three years since that article, what does your boy have to show for it?

*crickets*

That's right....nothing.

You can bash all you want. The waste I saw in government was from bloated programs, not due to some conspiracy headed by some devil to siphon money into a secret account somewhere. The waste is in maintaining the overhead to keep too many bureaucrats in an office somewhere, slowing the efficiency to get anything done.

Sweet all you can think of is bashing.. when billions have been ripped off by those you want to protect?
Amazzzzzzing Max.... that a smart guy like you does not have a problem with all of us getting ripped off.. I mean its going to be your grandkids that are living in the aftermath of this.. I will be long gone.. and so will the America that once was

Who's bashing Jeane? I point out gluttons of capitalism, but it's okay. I point out waste that affects us all (including me) but somehow that translates to "...does not have a problem with..." You missing the point. We're getting ripped off, fast and dry, regardless of any actual corporate collusion. If it makes you feel better to blame President Bush, be my guest. If you think we weren't getting it in the cornhole under previous administrations then I have some beautiful beachfront property for you in Idaho.

The waste, the overhead, ad infinitum, all gets passed through. You know it, you've seen it. It has nothing to do with company a, or company b...it has to do with any company that does business with the federal government. Processes that should take days take months instead. As cumbersome as the military was, at least you could get people yelling and shit would reach a decision. Instead, you have the likes of Sen. Leahy talking up a big game three years ago when in all reality, he probably forgot what the hell he was talking about 10 minutes after he made that statement.

But don't worry, the government will help you more with more programs, more spending, and more waste.

Believe it or not, you and I are sort of on the same side of this issue. The difference is that I think that if profits can provide incentive, then that's better than regulation, because the corrosion only seems to get worse when we demand Washington, DC fix it and no one wants to take accountability for it. If KBR is billing back $10/bottle in Iraq, that's one thing. When Russia decides to maybe not pick up our astronauts at the Space Station in the coming years because we could keep our sh*t straight enough to develop a replacement, that's another. KBR can keep the $10. There are far more important structural problems going on right now. Like the government handing over private company ownership to unions. One that recently caught my eye:http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/12/11/more-federal-workers-make-six-figures-in-the-recession/ ...and this one: http://www.dailyfinance.com/2009/12/11/the-house-oks-a-sweeping-overhaul-of-financial-regulations/

...talk about writing checks off our asses...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Amazon 7]

My problem is guys like you and Mike who have seen it.. but seem to think its ok.. as long as it passes your political ideological test.

Personally I would rather have the very best for our guys who serve rahter than a corporation in it to rip off all of us just as much as they can. Bush and Cheney were the enablers of such behavior... but whatt the fuck.. as long as they get to funnel money to the "right" people that seems to be just hunky dory.. in the meantime... guys like you get fucked over in theatre.. like this... over and over and over.. the waste.. the fraud... but you guys just gloss over it.

http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/news/contamination.html

Quote

Whistleblowers' stomach-curdling story:
Halliburton serves contaminated water to troops


20 Sept. 2005
WASHINGTON, Sept. 20 (HalliburtonWatch.org) -- Outrage overflowed on Capitol Hill this summer when members of Congress learned that Halliburton's dining halls in Iraq had repeatedly served spoiled food to unsuspecting troops. "This happened quite a bit," testified Rory Mayberry, a former food manager with Halliburton's KBR subsidiary.

But the outrage apparently doesn't end with spoiled food. Former KBR employees and water quality specialists, Ben Carter and Ken May, told HalliburtonWatch that KBR knowingly exposes troops and civilians to contaminated water from Iraq's Euphrates River. One internal KBR email provided to HalliburtonWatch says that, for "possibly a year," the level of contamination at one camp was two times the normal level for untreated water.

"I discovered the water being delivered from the Euphrates for the military was not being treated properly and thousands were being exposed daily to numerous pathogenic organisms," Carter informed HalliburtonWatch.

Carter worked at Camp Ar Ramadi, located 70 miles west of Baghdad in the notoriously violent Sunni Triangle, but he says water contamination problems exist throughout Iraq's military camps. He helped manage KBR's Reverse Osmosis Water Purification Unit (ROWPU), which is a water treatment system designed to produce potable (drinkable) water from a variety of raw water sources such as lakes, lagoons and rivers. ROWPU is supposed to provide the troops with clean water from Iraq's Euphrates River.

William Granger of KBR Water Quality for Iraq reached this conclusion in an email after investigating Carter's complaint: "Fact: We exposed a base camp population (military and civilian) to a water source that was not treated. The level of contamination was roughly 2x the normal contamination of untreated water from the Euphrates River." Granger admitted that the contamination was "most likely … ongoing through the entire life" of the camp, but that he was "not sure if any attempt to notify the exposed population was ever made."

THe worst part is... you seem to think they did a great job.... WTF

[Gawain 0]

Quote

My problem is guys like you and Mike who have seen it.. but seem to think its ok.. as long as it passes your political ideological test.

Personally I would rather have the very best for our guys who serve rahter than a corporation in it to rip off all of us just as much as they can. Bush and Cheney were the enablers of such behavior... but whatt the fuck.. as long as they get to funnel money to the "right" people that seems to be just hunky dory.. in the meantime... guys like you get fucked over in theatre.. like this... over and over and over.. the waste.. the fraud... but you guys just gloss over it.

http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/news/contamination.html

Quote

Whistleblowers' stomach-curdling story:
Halliburton serves contaminated water to troops


20 Sept. 2005
WASHINGTON, Sept. 20 (HalliburtonWatch.org) -- Outrage overflowed on Capitol Hill this summer when members of Congress learned that Halliburton's dining halls in Iraq had repeatedly served spoiled food to unsuspecting troops. "This happened quite a bit," testified Rory Mayberry, a former food manager with Halliburton's KBR subsidiary.

But the outrage apparently doesn't end with spoiled food. Former KBR employees and water quality specialists, Ben Carter and Ken May, told HalliburtonWatch that KBR knowingly exposes troops and civilians to contaminated water from Iraq's Euphrates River. One internal KBR email provided to HalliburtonWatch says that, for "possibly a year," the level of contamination at one camp was two times the normal level for untreated water.

"I discovered the water being delivered from the Euphrates for the military was not being treated properly and thousands were being exposed daily to numerous pathogenic organisms," Carter informed HalliburtonWatch.

Carter worked at Camp Ar Ramadi, located 70 miles west of Baghdad in the notoriously violent Sunni Triangle, but he says water contamination problems exist throughout Iraq's military camps. He helped manage KBR's Reverse Osmosis Water Purification Unit (ROWPU), which is a water treatment system designed to produce potable (drinkable) water from a variety of raw water sources such as lakes, lagoons and rivers. ROWPU is supposed to provide the troops with clean water from Iraq's Euphrates River.

William Granger of KBR Water Quality for Iraq reached this conclusion in an email after investigating Carter's complaint: "Fact: We exposed a base camp population (military and civilian) to a water source that was not treated. The level of contamination was roughly 2x the normal contamination of untreated water from the Euphrates River." Granger admitted that the contamination was "most likely … ongoing through the entire life" of the camp, but that he was "not sure if any attempt to notify the exposed population was ever made."

THe worst part is... you seem to think they did a great job.... WTF

I never said any of it is okay. I initially responded to your attempts to throw "war mongering" corporations under the bus for profiteering, when in fact, their margins aren't as fat as you wish. I then show examples of that, and point out where I think the real waste in the system is. Now it's to see who's screwing over the servicemen in theater. I didn't see any of that.

I never made it to Camp Ramadi, that was in the Marine AO, and I was in the southeastern part of the city. I do have some friends in the Marines that were there, and I'll ask them if they ever saw/heard anything. Where I was, all our water was bottled and our treatment was done by an Army unit. The Navy was running the shower tent.

What I can tell you for a fact is this: Ramadi in 2005/2006/2007 had to have been the dirtiest f**k**g city in the world. Pools of sewage everywhere, running streams of it down the center of the roads. I didn't see the Euphrates from Ramadi, but from other areas on patrol outside the city. After the surge, General Pace, before his retirement, walked down the streets of Ramadi met and talked with all sorts of folks and just recently, some fellow vets who were wounded were invited by the Army to return to Iraq so they could see the area they served, and what they looked like now. My buddy Ed went to Ramadi and said it was a jewel compared to what it was. Who enabled that?

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Amazon 7]

Quote

My buddy Ed went to Ramadi and said it was a jewel compared to what it was. Who enabled that?

It was not the door kickers who rebuiilt the city.. it sure as hell was not Haliburton...

Perhaps it was the people there who wanted a decent life afterr you ran the people out of town who were the problem and the people rebuilt their lives.

THere was a pattern... of throwing money way by the truckfull and I dont think we the American people got our moneys worth.

In the mean time some very well connected individuals like Prince... did very well... thru the corruption they could and did get away with... so far.

I think all that money would have been better spent on the American people, rather than shoveling it in huge quantities into friends of the administrations pockets.

[d16842 0]

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You do get the concept ofvalue right.. you pay for something and you get something in return.

I am talking about the massive waste and fraud of some of the companies doing business there. I am not talking bout the large contractors that build the weapoins of war.. I am talking about those who run the companies who are taking the money and ripping all of us off.. and there is nothing sacred to them as long as they make dollars in any way that they can.. or hurt our own people to get rich..

Oh what the hell.. whats a few grunts with health problems due to greed...

Have you ever worked for a government contractor in such circumstances. In my job I have been in similar situations many many times. A disaster of some kind happens, and the government cranks up the contractor, tells them money is no concern, that the only criteria is getting as much support there as is possible, as quickly as it can be done. The wave the flag, tell the contractor that American lives are at stake, and again money is no object. Then the contractor pulls out the few remaing limits in place and goes to incredible lengths to provide what is asked and does a hell of a good job of it.

Then a year later when the contracting agent or Congress sees the bills they throw a hissy fit. How could you possibly have done all this expensive stuff, the special shipments on one of a kind aircraft, leasing ships for transport at twice the going rate, so that they can get them from other natoins or companies to get what the Government asked for. How could you possibly have spent this much money.

How indeed.

Tom B

[d16842 0]

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So now that Bush is out all the war profiteering is going to stop isn't it?

And prosecutions are finally happening now that their protection is gone.

Yeah, they are finally making such good prosecutions, aren't they. Like when they sent a Seal team out to get the fucking terrorist leader that had snatched for Americans, brutally tortured them, hung them on a bridge, and put it all on a Website.

The seals go out at great personal risk, snatch the guy, and in the middle of it, one of them punched him. No major damage, just a punch. He claimed abuse, and the Navy has the four Seals now in a Court Martial. He tortured and killed four Americans and for just a punch we are upset enough to prosecute the very men who risk their lives for us daily? They should have just killed the son of a bitch, then they would not have to explain the punch.

Or like the Attorney General declaring war on the CIA, starting investigations that Obama said should not occur. Before it is over they will end up prosecuting agents for doing what they were ordered to do, and advised by government lawyers that it was legitimate to do. Yea, that is such a good prosecution.

Or how they are going to prosecute businesses for doing EXACTLY what the government told them to do. That no expense should be spared, get everything you can over there and set up as quickly as possible, money is no object. Then a year later when a congressman bitches about the cost, it is suddenly abuse of the government by the company. Before long no company will answer the governments call.

Keep this crap up and soon we are going to run out of soldiers, agents, and companies willing to protect our ass. What then?

Tom B

[d16842 0]

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Sweet all you can think of is bashing.. when billions have been ripped off by those you want to protect?
Amazzzzzzing Max.... that a smart guy like you does not have a problem with all of us getting ripped off.. I mean its going to be your grandkids that are living in the aftermath of this.. I will be long gone.. and so will the America that once was

You make "ripped off" sound like armed robbery. Whatever happened, government agents that work for us approved it. Every dollar of it. Why aren't you attacking the ones who are actually responsible for wisely spending our money?

I don't think you can find a logical reason. By definition companies exist to make money. It is their employees only job. Government purchasing agents are there to protect us. Which of the two failed in their job?

This situation is not limited to the war, it infects every government body, all the time. And it will never end until we stop blaming companies, and start whacking those responsible, the purchasing agents, their boss, and their boss, right up the latter. Fire enough of them and it will stop. But we have yet to fire the first one.

Tom B

[jcd11235 0]

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Yeah, Exxon with those glaring 9% net margins are just raping and pillaging.

Net margin is a useless statistic without knowing the period of time over which it occurs.

If Exxon Mobil takes 12 months to get a barrel of oil from the ground to the gas station, then that is the equivalent of 9% interest, compounded annually.

If it takes them only a month to go from ground to station, then that same 9% net margin is equivalent to over 180% interest, compounded annually.

When one considers the extent to which taxpayers have subsidized petroleum companies operating costs via military actions to make the oil more accessible to the oil companies, then 9% effective seems like a very generous rate of return for the petro companies. If it takes a month or less for the oil to get from ground to station, then consumers (and taxpayers) are clearly getting raped.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Gawain 0]

Quote

Quote

Yeah, Exxon with those glaring 9% net margins are just raping and pillaging.

Net margin is a useless statistic without knowing the period of time over which it occurs.

If Exxon Mobil takes 12 months to get a barrel of oil from the ground to the gas station, then that is the equivalent of 9% interest, compounded annually.

If it takes them only a month to go from ground to station, then that same 9% net margin is equivalent to over 180% interest, compounded annually.

When one considers the extent to which taxpayers have subsidized petroleum companies operating costs via military actions to make the oil more accessible to the oil companies, then 9% effective seems like a very generous rate of return for the petro companies. If it takes a month or less for the oil to get from ground to station, then consumers (and taxpayers) are clearly getting raped.

I'm fairly certain that a net margin is in terms of their Fiscal Year, reported in their annual report. That's what I read in their annual report, which, low-and-behold, reports on activity during the course of a year. If you want to use fancy accounting standards go right ahead. It doesn't change what is readily accessible information in dozens of venues.

Why don't you look up how much in tax breaks are actually given to the oil industry. It's not as much as you think and is in actuality a drop in the bucket given the industry as a whole, and those incentives hardly make it into any oil co. pockets. http://cleantech.com/news/node/554

Why don't you read over XOM's financial statement and tell me where I'm wrong? According to their Annual Report, 2008 Gross Revenue was $459.579B. Net income was $45.220B. That is 9.83%. If I'm doing the math wrong, then please show me where and how to correctly read the numbers.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Gawain 0]

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I think all that money would have been better spent on the American people, rather than shoveling it in huge quantities into friends of the administrations pockets.

Well, we can see what $2Tr spent in less than a year, via TARP, Omnibus, and Stimulus has accomplished. Two times the amount allocated on the war, in less than an 1/8th the time. Talk about money's worth? We have nationalization of banks, two car companies, the government now owns 80% of the mortgages now that they own Freddie and Fannie...that's a horrific track record, no matter how you look at it.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[jcd11235 0]

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I'm fairly certain that a net margin is in terms of their Fiscal Year…

I couldn't speak for the numbers you provided without naming or linking to sources in your first post, but net margin = profit/revenue. The time period is essential information in order to make it a useful statistic. It could be for the time to pump and process a single barrel of oil, a quarter, or for the entire year.

It's also worth noting that operating margin is a more relevant number when comparing corporate profits to effective interest rates, since interest income is taxed for individuals.

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Why don't you look up how much in tax breaks are actually given to the oil industry.

Interesting how you brought up tax breaks, but ignored the form of subsidization I mentioned. Corporate subsidies can take many forms, one of which is tax breaks.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

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Well, we can see what $2Tr spent in less than a year, via TARP, Omnibus, and Stimulus has accomplished.

It's certainly offered more benefit than the wars.

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We have nationalization of banks, two car companies, the government now owns 80% of the mortgages now that they own Freddie and Fannie...that's a horrific track record, no matter how you look at it.

That's a strange metric you're using. If the government invests money and has a realistic potential to offer a positive ROI, it's horrific, but you don't mind them wasting money on needless bombs and ammunitions that tend to offer a (100%) ROI.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Gawain 0]

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I'm fairly certain that a net margin is in terms of their Fiscal Year…

I couldn't speak for the numbers you provided without naming or linking to sources in your first post, but net margin = profit/revenue. The time period is essential information in order to make it a useful statistic. It could be for the time to pump and process a single barrel of oil, a quarter, or for the entire year.

It's also worth noting that operating margin is a more relevant number when comparing corporate profits to effective interest rates, since interest income is taxed for individuals.

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Why don't you look up how much in tax breaks are actually given to the oil industry.

Interesting how you brought up tax breaks, but ignored the form of subsidization I mentioned. Corporate subsidies can take many forms, one of which is tax breaks.

I offered numbers, they are correct. I asked you to show me where my deductions were wrong. If you're incapable of operating more than one browser window at a time, then here cut and paste this into your browser: http://ir.exxonmobil.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=115024&p=irol-reportsAnnual...or simply click here: http://ir.exxonmobil.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=115024&p=irol-reportsAnnual

I'm not comparing operating margins to effective interest rates. Your prerogative. I'm comparing gross revenue to net profit (after taxes, charges...bottom line), using all your fancy speak doesn't change the language or the numbers.

I am citing an Annual Report, which reports activity during a fiscal year. In XOM's case, it runs a calendar year. NOw if you don't like that data, Yahoo has a pretty good layout, outlining data in trailing twelve months. Trying clicking here: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=XOM

As for the subsidies you mentioned, you do bring up a good point, I didn't really address your argument there, I transitioned to something else. In the context of the "subsidies" you mentioned, they aren't all that dramatic. Oil companies still have to buy the oil they drill off the open market, at whatever the contract price is on the commodities market. Those costs are passed through. They then pay taxes on their revenue, not once, but twice. I had the gross revenue dollar figure wrong though, it wasn't $459B, it was $477.359B, over net income of $45.22B. So, according to your equation, that equals 9.47%. Go to page 38 of their annual report.

I know these numbers don't agree with your line of thinking, but if you can't detach yourself to see where the real waste and gluttony is...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!