What would you do?

[Reginald 0]

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I am cocking it correctly as I had my rigger check it out and everything. I've done 3 H+P's, 2 have had PCIT's. It's got me concerned.

You haven’t had 2 PCIT’s you are just learning that it takes a little bit of air speed to pull the darn pin. It is nothing to be concerned about, stop being a drama queen.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Easy there...chill out

Would you not be concerned if you had done 3 jumps, 2 with problems? And why did this never happen on any other H+P on borrowed/student gear?

I'm not stupid, If this was the same thing on every H+P, I wouldn't second guess it, but it's not.

I'm in a learning stage, I have 37 jumps. Are you telling me when I think I have a problem to shut up and ignore it because a skygod like you says I'm being a drama queen? Hah! I am being wise about my jumping, and I enjoy posting here because there is alot of good info and alot of experience.

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Hmm,

Just wanted people to see that newbies have questions that a skygod might think is stupid.

I think this is hilarious!

Looks like Ron was a beginner once. How weird? He had an issue very similar to mine, hell it was even on a H&P. Guess he shouldn't have worried about this one either.

Just thought I'd post it for all to read:
http://dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=810533;#810533


Sorry Reginald, but you started this, and I'm finishing it. Don't be a dink when newbies ask a question. I come here for advice, not to satisfy you.

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[AFFI 0]

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I've done 3 H+P's, 2 have had PCIT's. It's got me concerned.

You are NOT experiencing a PCIT Malfunction.

What you are experiencing is a hesitation simply because you are not going fast enough for the PC to be able to pull hard enough on the pin to extract it.

This Is No Big Deal...
I have induced the exact same sensation many times.

It is a very good practice to make inquiries and learn. Perhaps Ron’s frustration is stemming from the fact that I have already explained in detail what is most likely creating this sensation you are experiencing. I am beginning to get frustrated as well which is uncharacteristic of me, but you yourself stated:

Quote

“this only happens at subterminal and I've packed and routed my bridle exactly the same every single time I've packed. This happened to me once before on a H+P from 4500 but it only lasted 3 seconds.”

So it seems that you understand the dynamics of what is happening yet you are still insisting that you have experienced a PCIT which you have not. A real PCIT is a quite rare malfunction, at least in my experience and every experienced instructor I have studied with it has been rare as well.

Furthermore with a curved pin you will very likely not be able to make your closing loop tight enough to create a PCIT, no matter how tight you make it.

If you want proof, do this test:
1. Make your closing loop as tight as you can and close your rig and put it on.
2. Get on a motorcycle and go 60 MPH which is 50% of terminal velocity.
3. Toss your PC out and see if it opens your main.
4. If it does not, slowly apply speed until it (the parachute) comes out and note what your speed was at deployment time.
5. Be prepared to hit the ground very hard…

This will give you an indication as to how fast you must be going for the PC to extract your main canopy with the closing pin as tight as you can make it.

If you want to avoid the whole hitting the ground part, simply take our word for it and believe that what we are communicating to you is factual. If you still do not understand it then ask your rigger if he would be kind enough to take the time to explain it to you, or you could fly down here to Texas and I will go over it with you until you fully understand.

Just to summarize:

1. At 0 (ZERO) Miles Per Hour a deployed PC will apply no force (ZERO).
2. At Terminal Velocity (120 Miles Per Hour) a deployed PC will apply 85 pounds of pull force. The slower you are going the less force the PC will pull with.
3. It takes 14 pounds of pull force to open the parachute.
4. When you jump from an airplane, it takes some time to reach terminal velocity (120MPH), lets make it simple and say it is 15 seconds. If you wait 3 seconds and then throw your PC then you will not be falling fast enough for the PC to create enough pulling force to pull the parachute out. As you gain speed then more pulling force is applied by your PC, then after a few (3) more seconds there will finally be enough pulling force by the PC to pull out the parachute. That is the sensation you are noticing.


Does this make sense now?

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[NWFlyer 2]

While his tone may have been uncomfortably smug, the point that he made, that you did not have a pilot chute in tow (as it is commonly defined in this sport) is a valid one. As AFFI and others have pointed out, you had a hesitation related to slow airspeed on a sub-terminal opening. Slightly different from PC hesitation that's caused by the PC being in your burble, but still just a hesitation, not a PCIT.

I wouldn't have gone so far as to say you're being a drama queen, and it's good that you have worked with local riggers to figure out if this hesitation is cause for concern.

Just be careful about terminology... PCIT is an entirely different and significantly nastier situation than what you've experienced. May you never have to experience it, because from everything I've heard about it, it's a nasty malfunction to be in.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[AFFI 0]

Sorry if I can across as condescending or being short tempered, there are no exclamation points in my explanation and usually I love the challenge of getting someone to understand something they are struggling with. You see I just had a huge tumor removed from my spine, going in for another major open spinal surgery Friday morning and I am in freakish pain right now, it is hard to sit here, type and cope all at the same time.

Please bear with me…

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Reginald 0]

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Easy there...chill out

All right fair enough, I'm in a bit of a cranky mood. I probably should have put a smillie face after the post to get the deep internal sense of humor across.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[Reginald 0]

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Just thought I'd post it for all to read:
http://dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=810533;#810533

You arn't even geting my good student posts! Try this one...

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=798179;search_string=reginald;#798179

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

and I remember saying this, oddly it's a few posts back in this thread.

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Ok, that's better, heh.

My fault for saying PCIT, it should have said Pilt chute hesitation.

Thanks

I DO agree that a PCIT is a packing error, if it is misrouted and does not work it's way out.

Chris

That's not what I was arguing about. He said that I should stop crying as I didn't have a mal. I agree I didn't have a mal, but that's not what I was "crying" about. I was asking What would you do in this scenario, not please feel sorry for me, I had a mal.

I think everyone is a bit critical on these forums. My first post clearly stated I had a PCIT that cleared itself. So I apologize for using a slightly incorrect term, but you all know exactly what I meant.

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[pilotdave 0]

I dunno... if it's taking 5 seconds for your PC to pull the pin on a hop n' pop, something's wrong and you should be worried.

Your pilot chute should be working correctly at hop n' pop speeds. You will get a slower opening, but your bag should be coming out with no delay. I don't do hop n' pops too often, but when I do them, I like to take very short delays and not build up speed. My canopy takes forever to open, but not a whole lot of altitude.

I did have a couple pilot chutes in tow (once I pulled the bridle, the second time it was a "hesitation") on my old rig before I had my pilot chute replaced. I had multiple experienced jumpers and riggers look at it before a master rigger was able to determine that my kill line had shrunk.

Get it checked out!

Dave

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Thank you for understanding my concern!

I wasn't complaining that I had a mal, I asked for advice on what you would do in a scenario. This thread originally had nothing to do with "my" hesitation, just a question based around that scenario. But nonetheless, it turned to me.

Thanks Dave!

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[billvon 2,434]

>You are NOT experiencing a PCIT Malfunction.

>you are still insisting that you have experienced a PCIT which you have not.

Well, to be fair, he did experience a pilot chute in tow. A PCIT mal is a PCIT that doesn't clear itself. All tandem masters have experienced drouges in tow, and most experienced jumpers have had a pilot chute in tow at one point or another. All that means is that it's out of the pocket and pulling but the pin hasn't cleared yet. If it never clears, then it's a malfunction.

[Reginald 0]

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Sorry if I can across as condescending or being short tempered, ... You see I just had a huge tumor removed from my spine, going in for another major open spinal surgery Friday morning and I am in freakish pain right now, it is hard to sit here, type and cope all at the same time.

Please bear with me…

Damn it Mykel. I wonder if my spine surgery has me getting cranky too! I don't know why it would be bothering me....see attached pic.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Hey,

It was not a PC stuck in my burble, it was extended and being held by the pin. I agree with what Bill Von said. It was a PCIT that cleared. I was still towing a PC no matter what the reason. I agree that I didn't have a PCIT mal, but I also never said that I did. I would also understand a PC Hesitation to be stuck in my burble and not towing. Either way, I thought I was clear when I said I had a PCIT that cleared after 6 seconds.

Either way, that's not my concern, I know and understood why it happened before leaving the DZ. My question was not about my mal, it was a scenario question.

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[AFFI 0]

Quote

>You are NOT experiencing a PCIT Malfunction.

>you are still insisting that you have experienced a PCIT which you have not.

Well, to be fair, he did experience a pilot chute in tow. A PCIT mal is a PCIT that doesn't clear itself. All tandem masters have experienced drouges in tow, and most experienced jumpers have had a pilot chute in tow at one point or another. All that means is that it's out of the pocket and pulling but the pin hasn't cleared yet. If it never clears, then it's a malfunction.

This seems long but in reality will only take 90 seconds or less to read. Read on, it might be worth it...

As always Bill, I love your ability to communicate and moderate when discussion seems to get heated but things are cool on this side of the keyboard my friend. Semantics is my problem once again. David also raised a certain point that additional discourse by the community might shed some deeper understanding on. So onward I push…

There are two forces being applied to the PC on a H&P exit - that is the air speed of the A/C and the speed being built up as the body gains velocity in freefall right? What else am I missing?
Hmmmmm… Let’s take a scenario, like -
Take the air speed of say, a Super Otter that is on a fast jump run and one second out the door the PC is deployed. Then compare that to a balloon jump with no air speed at all and the PC is deployed 1 second after exit. Which parachute will deploy sooner?

My guess is it will be the exit from the Super Otter.

The point David raises is a great one that might alert a skydiver that there may be a problem. But I have had H&P exits where I have deployed the PC right out the door, had am immediate deployment and on a subsequent H&P exit experienced a hesitation like Chris has described on the same day with well maintained equipment. A delay could be caused by a shrunken kill line but it could also be a factor of the varying velocity of jump runs as well no? Or perhaps the fact that the immediate deployment was from a 4k exit and the hesitation was from a 14k exit where the air is thinner?

I am posing as questions because I know that I do not have all the answers and certainly do not always think of all the potential causes of certain issues. I would have seen this hesitation as a red flag to have the gear looked over but Chris already had the equipment checked out by a rigger and it was deemed fine.

Is a PC hesitation a PCIT since the PC tows for 3 seconds? I say no. If a sub-terminal hesitation were to be considered a PCIT then using the same logic every deployment is a PCIT for a theoretical amount of time because on a normal, terminal deployment the bridle has to achieve line stretch before the pin is extracted and although the amount of “Tow” time is miniscule it is still present in the physical universe. No?


Bill, you know I go out of my way sometimes to ensure that effective communication and learning occurs every time the opportunity presents itself. And this case is not different, so onward we carry this mode of discourse until it reaches it’s final stupendous outcome eh?

One last thing to consider. This is only a reflection of myself as mine is the only self I have enough knowledge upon which to reflect:
When I had 37, 50 or 100 jumps perhaps my perception of what 3 seconds was in freefall was not quite as accurate as it is now after having a little more experience. Even now I am surprised sometimes at how quickly something happened on the video when my recollection of the same event just minutes after the dive seemed like something took twice as long, as if my perception in freefall is in slow motion. Whenever I am in a situation where things are not going like I quite anticipate they would as was in the case the first time I experienced a sub-terminal hesitation it might be even more enhanced by the surge of adrenaline I experience, it seemed like my PC towed for 4 or 5 seconds but when I counted on the video it was maybe one and a half to two seconds. That being said, since I am only human perhaps other humans experience similar sensations when they are in similar situations.

Meanwhile, back at the farm…

Besides all we have gotten to learn and explore through all this talk about sub-terminal hesitations, most importantly the consensus concerning the question raised from the original posting is to follow correct EP’s regardless of whether of not a main canopy will be lost in the process right? What is most important is the preservation of our lives and many lives have been lost in the history of skydiving when making retrieval of the gear a priority. So the original question did get answered but we got to learn a lot more during the process of conversation which is to me one of the most productive, seemingly magical elements of participation in these forums.

Thanks everyone, for enhancing my understanding and broadening my base of knowledge in skydiving.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[AFFI 0]

WHEW...

[mjosparky 3]

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I'm not stupid,

I agree, you are not stupid. But you have a lot to learn. Asking questions of the more experienced jumpers is a good way to learn. But you need to listen more and argue less. At 37 jumps, most of the time you will be wrong. This has nothing to do with intelligence it is just hard to learn something is less than an hour. And 37 jumps is less than an hour including freefall and canopy time.

Next week end go up and do a H&P for altitude and have some video it from exit to deployment. Play the video back and not the time. In high speed, high stress situations our mind sometimes plays tricks with perceived time.
(google Temperal Distortion)

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Hey Sparky,

I know it may have seemed to me that it was a long time and in reality it may not have been. All I know is that it doesn't take NEARLY that long any other time, or on another rig.

And again, this thread was NEVER about my PC hesitation at all. I don't understand why everyone needs to keep going on this. If I wanted to know why my PC takes longer to pull my pin on a subterminal jump, I would have asked that. When it happened, I asked my rigger, he checked my gear, and I was comfortable that he said everything checked out. I understood WHY before I went on the next jump, or before I finished packing my gear. So let's stop discussing who is right and who is wrong or if it was a PCIT or not. That's not the question. I hate how everyone is being so argumentative.

Sparky, do you remember my last thread where I said people take something I say and rip it apart? Seems awfully similar to this thread. It was fine until Reginald made an unecessary comment about what I said, then out came all the stops.

Please, I'm asking everyone, don't be concerned with my gear, or my logic behind a PCIT or whatever. That is the least of my concerns, I've worked that out. It had nothing to do with the question I asked. When I have to keep repeating myself over and over, it makes me look like an ass when I didn't start any of this. You guys started it. I'm starting to think some of you guys post here for the sake of starting arguments. I just wish everyone wasn't so willing to jump on a newbie. Some of you need to slow down, and respond in an appropriate manner.

Here's Reginald's post edited to be much less harsh:
Original:

Quote

You haven’t had 2 PCIT’s you are just learning that it takes a little bit of air speed to pull the darn pin. It is nothing to be concerned about, stop being a drama queen.

Chris, What you actually experienced was not a PCIT, it was actually called pilot chute hesitation. At lower speeds it takes a little longer to pull the pin. It is nothing to be concerned about, it's just something you should be prepared for when doing a H+P.


Anyways,

Let me repost the original question:

Quote

Hey everyone,

I did a 10k H+P this weekend and had a PCIT for about 5 seconds. Eventually it opened up and all was well. This brought me to a question.

If you had a mal on a 10 k H+P would you chop right away or would you wait until you were a bit lower. This may come off as a dumb question but I'd like the opinion of some more experienced pilots.

Obviously the mal would dictate what you would do and how quick, but here's some scenarios.

For these scenarios, please give whether you would you chop and go reserve right away or fly it to 3-4k and then do EP's. Please give detail as to why you would make such choices

-Pilot chute in tow (You are unable to manually pull the pin by reaching back)

-Bag Lock

-Slider hangup (Canopy is just sniveling)

-Unable to find hackey/Hard pull


The reasons I ask these are:

1 - To shorten the reserve ride
2 - Reduce chance of losing canopy and freebag

There very well may be other scenarios but I'm just curious what the general public would do. Obviouosly if this was a 3500 H+P this question and scenarios have zero relevance.

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[NWFlyer 2]

Chris, the reality of dropzone.com (and most forums, for that matter) is that you don't get to control how other people respond to your posts.

You don't get to control the direction the thread takes. If things get way off track sometimes the moderators will attempt to control that, but that's their call and their job and I've noticed that, for the most part, if the discussion is still civil and providing useful information, they'll err on the side of letting things go.

You don't get to control the the tone people use to respond to you (or other posters who have also responded). Your tone can help to influence that, but you don't get to control it.

You don't always have to respond to every post.

You don't always have to "win" the argument/debate.

You don't get to choose who responds to you. Some people on here have a style that can seem a bit harsh and grating and difficult (no, I will not mention any names ). Some of them have also become mentors and friends to me even though they seemed harsh and mean when I first started posting. Stick with this place, try hard not to get defensive or antagonistic, and some people might just surprise you too.

Sometimes... it's good to just let the conversation go where it goes.

Sometimes ... it's good to just watch, listen, and learn. It may not go in the direction you expected, but it's almost always interesting and you can almost always learn something.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Well, I agree with all of that. But, when someone takes an unecessary dig at me, I defend myself, simple as that. You knwo just as well as I that the comment was uncalled for.

I understand I can't control the thread, but it seems, someone turns it against me, then everyone jumps in and says "yah, so there...". I just find it funny how many times something gets repeated in the same thread over and over just because everyone wants a piece of the action.

As always, I appreciate the advice whether the thread stays on topic or not, but it was unecessary to make a comment like what was posted.

And if I don't reply to every post, it will seem like I'm hiding. I have nothing to hide, I didn't start anything here. I like to explain things as they are.

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[Reginald 0]

Alright Chris, I think we’ve all collectively beat this to death. As I’ve mentioned in the forums and in PM’s I apologize for being cranky, my post was in fact unnecessarily terse.

There is no grand plot to get you and it’s not a game of piling on. Unfortunately, as we’ve discussed your argumentative style and constant one-upmanship generates a negative reaction from many people. One of the best pieces of wisdom I’ve ever heard is, “The world is a mirror.”

Blue skies to you and hopefully at this point your knowledge of pilot chute hesitation on sub-terminal deployments is greater than before you posted.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

I love how this turns around to make me look like the a$$hole. Classic!

Whatever, I'll accept that, I'll be the jerk.

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[quinny 0]

Hi Chris,
I didnt see you as the assh?le, infact I didnt see any assh?les on this thread or whatever you call it.
I find that I always get a whole bunch of strange tangents going off in all directions in these forums. I watch and laugh and pick what I can from them.
Remember one thing...we are all skydivers and brothers and sisters because of that.
Quinny

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Hey everyone,

I just thought I'd update this post since it veered into "my" malfunction. I did 2 more H+P's today and yes, I had a PCIT for both of them. The first one I was on my own and it towed for about 3-4 secs. I talked to my fellow jumpers and we decided to look into the issue. I think everyone thought I was retarded and didn't knwo what a PCIT was. Here is what we tried:

First, compare the pull force in a car of 2 pilot chutes of equal size...Lots of pull.

Looked at the mesh, seemed ok, it's smaller mesh than most others on the DZ but still OK, porosity is still zero.

We next measured the PC and bridle etc. Turns out the PC is 27" which seemed slightly small to everyone, but nothing absurd. Bridle from pin to PC connection, 5'8", again, a bit short but not absurd.

So, at this point everyone is sort of scratching their heads and thinking I'm crazy at the same time. I had a fellow jumper try out my gear and sure enough, came out just dandy. So...I asked someone to film me exiting from the plane. Well, this got everyone excited and it became a "Watch my hop and tow.

I exited with a cameraman who was to stay in the plane, a guy on the end of the strut to exit with me, and a guy in the plane just to watch. I'll try and get the video, you can see it but the camera went out of focus. (Thanks for doing video Dave, much appreciated!)

Exit, wait a second or 2 and dump. Bam, PCIT. It only towed for about 1.5-2 secs this time, but my perception of time was pretty accurate. When I got on the ground, I asked them if they saw it, they said yes, and I said it towed for about 2 secs right? They said yes it did.

So this is what they we saw. PC goes to full stretch, pin pops out immediately, flaps open, bag starts to come out and hangs. It's basically the bag being locked in the container. FINALLY, I'm not crazy. And it's on video!!!

All in all, we figure it's a combination of a few things.

#1 - PC is a bit small
#2 - Bridle is a bit short
#3 - I am very light
#4 - Canopy is tight in the bag

So the combination of all these things, we figure is causing the tow. Now that we know what causes it, we can do a few things. I was going to get a whole new PC/bridle, but I don't think it's necessary. Next weekend I'm going to see what happens on a 5 Sec delay. I think it will work fine, as it works fine on terminal jumps. My resolution....don't do clear and pulls, or expect to tow.

I may end up getting a bigger PC, or simple extending my bridle a bit.

Thanks for the advice from this thread!

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[mdrejhon 8]

Hey Chris,

Thanks for being my carpool buddy at the last Gananoque Twin Otter event!

From what you told me (off dropzone.com), I think 5 seconds is WAY too long; you sounded genuine about it - a little hesitation is completely normal but here are four strong hints that you may INDEED have abnormally long hesitation:

(1) I have heard (maybe correctly; maybe incorrectly) that 135's have small PC's.
(2) You are very light at 115 pounds, and tend to fall slowly.
(3) If I remember right, your instructor had to give you a weightbelt in order to complete your freefall progression, right? (Even with the weightbelt you were wingloaded at only about 0.5 under your student canopy if I remember right?)
(4) You are doing your solo jumps and H+P's without a weight belt.

(Let's not get into appropriateness of the canopy -- Chris-ottawa already posted a separate thread for that, so post in there)

At 5 seconds hesitation, if this is really true (And not a newbie sense of distorted time), your bag may be staying in its tray at air exit speed, but taking a few seconds till you reach a little closer to terminal velocity, for the pin or bag to be pulled. It may actually be only 3 seconds rather than 5 seconds, but this is still a hesitation that is unnerving, considering you're comparing a dramatic 2 second versus 5 second hesitation -- which indicates you probably noticed a relatively significantly longer delay (even if it's not really as long as 5 seconds). On future high altitude H+P, compare the plane altitude to the canopy altitude, that will be a more accurate indicator of how dangerous the hesitation is -- since altitude matters the most: It's how safe you are from colliding with that big ball called Earth... (just in case 5 seconds is really just 1 second longer than usual; a common sense of distorted time) Then again, I got to wonder.... 5 seconds is indeed long and your featherweightness with a potentially small PC means I can't in my right mind completely dismiss this.... How many inches is your PC, by the way? Did the rigger check the size?

Personally I notice my Sabre tend to open faster (but softer) at slow airspeed, and am under a complete canopy only 300 feet below exit altitude with a relatively soft subterminal opening. At 5 seconds before your canopy starts to open, and another few seconds for a full opening, so if you're 1000-plus feet under your pull altitude, I feel that's unusual for a Sabre H+P deployment. If you're only 500 feet under the plane altitude, I don't think it's really a problem.

Talk to your instructor and rigger about whether it's safe to go one size upwards in PC. It's only a hunch that this may be prudent (and my hunch MAY BE WRONG) (Example: If your PC is 28 inches, go to 30 inches if approved by rigger and instructor) If your openings on your Sabre 135 is always unusually pillowy soft, this is your clue that it's safe to go one size larger in PC size.... (And yes, I have heard of pillow soft Sabre openings) More snatch force will allow your Sabre to inflate at the slower approx-80mph airspeed of a H+P ....

It may be OK to keep it as-is for now, and I am not an expert but better safe than sorry - I would keep my H+P's higher up to test out the PC for now. Just to be safe...

I warn, I am only a 200-jump wonder... Please pass everything through your instructor and rigger to be safe.