format 0 #126 September 22, 2009 You just found a way to avoid 'Personall Attack', by making it a Massive Attack Your one Gratitude. What goes around, comes later. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ion01 1 #127 September 22, 2009 Quote whenever i see these debattes on here, i always have to remember that the US is not a democracy, but a 3rd world country; of course they wouldnt have health care! Well, you are correct about one thing...its not a democracy but a republic......and since people travel all over the world to use our healthcare system and since we have the highest average living standards in the world I can't help but laugh at the rest. Thanks for helping me start my day with a smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #128 September 22, 2009 Quote whenever i see these debattes on here, i always have to remember that the US is not a democracy, but a 3rd world country; of course they wouldnt have health care! (ppppst - I've been to "third world countries" that have national health care. It's not as great as you think. I want better than that for our country - but I have other demands too. Privacy and right to choose are on the top of the list. I also don't want to federalize the entire medical system - I have been in the military already, I separated for a reason. It's not all about "I got mine.") Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #129 September 22, 2009 Quote You just found a way to avoid 'Personall Attack', by making it a Massive Attack Your one Gratitude. this is an international forum, right!? “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #130 September 22, 2009 Quote Quote whenever i see these debattes on here, i always have to remember that the US is not a democracy, but a 3rd world country; of course they wouldnt have health care! Well, you are correct about one thing...its not a democracy but a republic......and since people travel all over the world to use our healthcare system and since we have the highest average living standards in the world I can't help but laugh at the rest. Thanks for helping me start my day with a smile. republic, like in "banana republic"!? where the rich get their way while the poor.. well, fuck the poor! edited to add: you havent traveled much, have you!?“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #131 September 22, 2009 Quote Quote whenever i see these debattes on here, i always have to remember that the US is not a democracy, but a 3rd world country; of course they wouldnt have health care! (ppppst - I've been to "third world countries" that have national health care. It's not as great as you think. I want better than that for our country - but I have other demands too. Privacy and right to choose are on the top of the list. I also don't want to federalize the entire medical system - I have been in the military already, I separated for a reason. It's not all about "I got mine.") what federalize!? you dont think its a good thing if the state has an eye on the health care providers that everyone ends up paying shitloads? here, you pay for health care! you can get "commonly", "half-private" or "privately" insured, with the later two option being more expensive, but those will allow you to get the latest gimmicks in health care.. "common" insurance is mandatory and will cover your basic needs. then we have accident insurance, partly paid by you and by your employer. once you break your leg skiing, you wont be in debts for the rest of your life.. take sweden for example, prime health care, and its FREE! they pay a huge amount of tax tough, while papua new guinea (), its about 12% of your income.. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #132 September 22, 2009 I'm not saying that our system isn't broke. Just that I have some reservations about the plans in place. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #133 September 22, 2009 QuoteNot to play the bandwagon, but the US is among the very few "wealthy" country that doesn't provide publicly-funded healthcare, and many of those other countries did so by the consent of the population (voting or political pressure). Medicare and Medicaid are both publicly funded. There are also scores of smaller programs at the state, county and other levels besides federal. We have loads of publicly funded care, just not publicly funded universal care." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #134 September 22, 2009 QuoteI've been to "third world countries" that have national health care. It's not as great as you think. That's like saying a motorola Razr cellphone that costs $49 is better than a Samsung cell phone that's free. It might be a little better, but not much, and there are still better phones out there (iPhone, Blackberry, etc). QuoteI want better than that for our country - but I have other demands too. Then why would you be opposed to a government option? People that can't afford expensive insurance would be covered, and you could still choose to spend money on your private insurance that is, according to you, so much better.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #135 September 22, 2009 QuoteJust that I have some reservations about the plans in place. So do the insurance companies, because they'll actually have to compete. All of the resistance comes from a multi-billion dollar industry! If the government mandated we all drive electric cars because it's better for the environment, you can bet the oil companies would get Rush to say that it's NOT better for the environment, and they would get Sarah Palin to talk about how the new cars are death-traps. Stop being a parrot for the super-wealthy.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #136 September 22, 2009 QuoteQuoteI've been to "third world countries" that have national health care. It's not as great as you think. That's like saying a motorola Razr cellphone that costs $49 is better than a Samsung cell phone that's free. It might be a little better, but not much, and there are still better phones out there (iPhone, Blackberry, etc). QuoteI want better than that for our country - but I have other demands too. Then why would you be opposed to a government option? People that can't afford expensive insurance would be covered, and you could still choose to spend money on your private insurance that is, according to you, so much better. People that can't afford insurance CAN get coverage. I take care of them daily. And I've listed some of the concerns that I have about that system Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #137 September 22, 2009 QuoteStop being a parrot for the super-wealthy. Stop discounting personal concerns. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ion01 1 #138 September 22, 2009 Quote Quote Quote whenever i see these debattes on here, i always have to remember that the US is not a democracy, but a 3rd world country; of course they wouldnt have health care! Well, you are correct about one thing...its not a democracy but a republic......and since people travel all over the world to use our healthcare system and since we have the highest average living standards in the world I can't help but laugh at the rest. Thanks for helping me start my day with a smile. republic, like in "banana republic"!? where the rich get their way while the poor.. well, fuck the poor! edited to add: you havent traveled much, have you!? Do you know what a republic is? Its not just a name!It says nothing about the rich. In addition, "rich" people can't force others to be irresponsible in a free society. However, the government can and does take peoples money and are irresponsible with it for them! In a free society you can work hard and get an education and become rich if you want.....but thats not what some people want... some want to do nothing and get payed for it! Since when is that right? The rich provide good paying jobs so people don't have to be poor! What do people who refuse to work and live on welfare do for others......nothing. There is example after example of poor people working hard and becoming rich. A perfect example is the guy who started the company I work for. He litterally had nothing except an education and a massive debt. He then got some investors and bought a patent and started a company which only had about 5 people employeed. This company now employees several hunderd people over the US and several hundred around the world and is still growing even after he has left. He always consider those who worked for him family and he saw the company he made as a way to help people by giving them jobs! that is what freedom does and can do and that is what the government is trying to destroy! What would you know about where I have travelled anyways? Also, what would you know about what I think or do for the poor? What I do is help them get a job or help them get the education they need for that job. Just paying them for doing nothing does nothing more than keep them poor as why should they work when they get payed the same or more for not working? I know and have help many people who truely lived in poverty and came here for the opportunity to get out of that poverty. (I am not talking about what we view as poverty in this country....having one TV and one beat up car and a mobile home.....like thats so bad.....I am talking about having to get water from a muddy river that is miles away every day!) People come here to escape the clutches of oppressive governments so that may have the freedom to work hard and make thier own choices.....not to live under another oppresive government! If things are so bad here then tell me why we are considered the richest country in the world? Why do poeple come here from all over the world for our healthcare? Why are the majority of medical advancements made in thei s country? Why do so many medical professionals come here to practice? Why do people float on up turned cars to leave cuba (which has a lot of the things our government is trying to put in place!) and come here? Why do people sneak across the border to come here? If its so bad why come here where its worse? Besides, how does it concern you? Why does it matter so much to you whether or not we have government run health care. If things are so great everywhere else then why aren't people going there? Why won't people go there and leave me alone with my freedom instead of trying to take it way from me? If you don't want freedom then go where there isn't freedom instead of trying to take mine away..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #139 September 22, 2009 so why does my country have 20% foreigners!? and why does my country have 3.5% unemployment!? and why is my country considered to be the financial world capitol!? oh yea, because the US of A has just ruined the world financially, i completely forgot.. and does everything to make people around the world to hate your fellow countrymens guts.. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #140 September 22, 2009 QuoteQuoteWhat % of emplyers buy a kickass policy like that? 10% maybe. In my experience, I could get this sort of coverage by working for either a very large corporation that had tens of thousands of employees and could negotiate a great rate OR a small, well-funded VC company that had kick-ass product and was competing for the best talent. Both scenarios happened in the "good" economies, not the "bad" economies, where the company paid for the insurance. Problem with a kick-ass policy like that is that it hides the cost of care from everybody but the employer. 100% coverage (no deductible, no copay, no out of pocket comprehensive coverage) is no longer affordable as a benefit. It has become very rare, but is still available to certain government employees/retirees. They always give themselves the best deal. Those kinds of plans did not go away because of a changing economy - they went away because the cost to employers became astronomical. Utilization and price trend were generating 20 to 30% increases in cost of care per year; and it did not matter what the economy was doing. Currently cost of care per person is running at least $7K per year. While the rate of increase is at least slowing, it is still going up by at least 2 to 4 times the rate of overall inflation; and it will get worse as the boomer bubble ages, much worse. Pharmacueticals and high tech are the biggest drivers these days. Even if the cost to administer universal coverage went comletely away, and we used a generous figure of 12% for admin, the cost per person per year is still going to be somewhere over $6K per year. So if some entity wants to step up and administer health care financing for free, then the result will be an incremental, one-time reduction that will be no more than a blip over the long term; with the real problem only as far away as next year's increase. I used to say the problem with health care is that everybody wants to pay for a Chevy and drive a Cadillac. It appears more and more people want a free car, with maintenance and fuel to boot. Not sustainable." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #141 September 22, 2009 QuoteI used to say the problem with health care is that everybody wants to pay for a Chevy and drive a Cadillac. It appears more and more people want a free car, with maintenance and fuel to boot. Not sustainable. I think it would be more accurate to say that more people want a viable public transportation system to have as an option to owning and/or operating a private vehicle.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #142 September 22, 2009 Quote whenever i see these debattes on here, i always have to remember that the US is not a democracy, but a 3rd world country; of course they wouldnt have health care! Yeah, whatever - that must be why the US is ranked #1 in the only criteria that actually measures how well the doctors and hospitals perfom, because we're a third world country.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #143 September 22, 2009 QuoteQuoteI used to say the problem with health care is that everybody wants to pay for a Chevy and drive a Cadillac. It appears more and more people want a free car, with maintenance and fuel to boot. Not sustainable. I think it would be more accurate to say that more people want a viable public transportation system to have as an option to owning and/or operating a private vehicle. How long to you think everyone else will be able to afford the gas, when the public transportation system you cites gets their fuel for free?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #144 September 22, 2009 Quote Quote whenever i see these debattes on here, i always have to remember that the US is not a democracy, but a 3rd world country; of course they wouldnt have health care! Yeah, whatever - that must be why the US is ranked #1 in the only criteria that actually measures how well the doctors and hospitals perfom, because we're a third world country. obviously our optometrists suck too, because i dont see my country represented in your chart.. and the UK is known to have about the suckiest health care, so you're doing quite good in comparison to them, i see...“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #145 September 22, 2009 QuoteHow long to you think everyone else will be able to afford the gas, when the public transportation system you cites gets their fuel for free? Nice straw man. Taxpayer funded is not free. If private insurance companies can't run as efficiently as public insurance programs, then why should people be forced to use them? OTOH, if public insurance doesn't work as efficiently as private insurance companies, then people will choose the private option.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #146 September 22, 2009 QuoteThen why would you be opposed to a government option? People that can't afford expensive insurance would be covered, and you could still choose to spend money on your private insurance that is, according to you, so much better. The government does not need their hand in the game as a competitive insurer. They need to set the rules that create an even playing field for insurers to compete, and act as a clearinghouse, sort of a 1 stop shop where people can compare and decide for themselves. A government plan once guarantee issue is in place makes no sense at all. It is an ideologically driven agenda item that becomes obsolete once people can no longer be classified as uninsureable. What does need to be in place is some sort of crediting system or sliding scale pricing based on income so that people can afford to go shopping." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #147 September 22, 2009 http://www.swissinfo.ch/ger/startseite/Schweizer_Gesundheitssystem_als_Vorbild_fuer_die_USA.html?siteSect=105&sid=11204319&rss=true&ty=st http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesundheitswesen_Schweiz oh, you dont read german too!? does that mean the US-system sucks there too!? because i dont only speak german, french and english, this education was also brought to me for free.. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #148 September 22, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteI used to say the problem with health care is that everybody wants to pay for a Chevy and drive a Cadillac. It appears more and more people want a free car, with maintenance and fuel to boot. Not sustainable. I think it would be more accurate to say that more people want a viable public transportation system to have as an option to owning and/or operating a private vehicle. How long to you think everyone else will be able to afford the gas, when the public transportation system you cites gets their fuel for free? To use this analogy - we currently have public transport. Problems: The buses here in Kansas City have limited routes and the wait time is a bit longer than what people desire. So, the public option is still well used.... (no concern with fuel competition) To fix that problem, we could supply buses to the entire city, covering every subdivision and suburb... but the cost becomes the issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #149 September 22, 2009 QuoteQuoteI used to say the problem with health care is that everybody wants to pay for a Chevy and drive a Cadillac. It appears more and more people want a free car, with maintenance and fuel to boot. Not sustainable. I think it would be more accurate to say that more people want a viable public transportation system to have as an option to owning and/or operating a private vehicle. provided those that have a private vehicle still pay for the bus??? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #150 September 22, 2009 QuoteSo do the insurance companies, because they'll actually have to compete. All of the resistance comes from a multi-billion dollar industry! If you think insurance companies do not compete against one another, you have a very flawed understanding of the business environment in which they operate." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
