Sunday 6/28 Message

[redlegphi 0]

Subjective "evidence" isn't evidence. It's just faith. Which is great and all, but just because one person feels strongly about their faith doesn't mean everybody else should rush off to follow them.

[RonD1120 58]

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Subjective "evidence" isn't evidence. It's just faith. Which is great and all, but just because one person feels strongly about their faith doesn't mean everybody else should rush off to follow them.

I totally agree. No one should rush off and follow any one claiming to know the way. However, if you find your back up against the wall, need help and no one is there for you, try Jesus. If you ask in faith, by faith you will be answered.

Ask and you will be answered. Seek and you will find. Knock and the door will be opened.

Hebrews 11:1 (New King James Version)

By Faith We Understand

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

The Bible states that we will all accept Jesus Christ in His deity and His authority. It is better if we do it voluntarily while we are here on earth.

It always remains an individual choice. We all have free will.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[JackC 0]

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Objective, verifiable evidence is a term I learned at university studying accounting. I used it incorrectly. I should have said subjective, verifiable evidence.

Except there is no evidence, subjective or otherwise. In fact when you're talking about the physical existence of an actual thing, the phrase "subjective evidence" is an oxymoron.

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If you believe you are engaging in argument, you have missed the point. I am not here to argue. I am here to share.

I hate to break it to you but this story has been shared ad nauseum already and the more it gets dredged up, the more rediculous it sounds.

[RonD1120 58]

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I hate to break it to you but this story has been shared ad nauseum already and the more it gets dredged up, the more rediculous it sounds.

Consider this, by your responses you help to keep the topic fresh. Forums thrive by response.

Thank you for your assistance.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Butters 0]

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Christians possess objective, verifiable evidence to support their belief.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[makeithappen40 0]

>I should have said subjective, verifiable evidence.

But subjectivity is dependent on your emotions/feelings/beliefs. How is that "verifiable evidence?"

Objectivity is characterized by concrete facts, and those concrete facts are what constitute verifiable evidence.

As much as I like the words of Christ, it is still hard to be definitive in saying that he is 1)the son of god and 2)that God does exist.
Given the information we have now, we cannot deduce the existence of God.

However, we can construct some interesting inductive arguments as such. None of which make it necessarily the case that God does or does not exist.

[RonD1120 58]

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>I should have said subjective, verifiable evidence.

But subjectivity is dependent on your emotions/feelings/beliefs. How is that "verifiable evidence?"

Objectivity is characterized by concrete facts, and those concrete facts are what constitute verifiable evidence.

As much as I like the words of Christ, it is still hard to be definitive in saying that he is 1)the son of god and 2)that God does exist.
Given the information we have now, we cannot deduce the existence of God.

However, we can construct some interesting inductive arguments as such. None of which make it necessarily the case that God does or does not exist.

As I stated above, the evidence exists with the person who had the experience. It is a change of personality, a change in the mental processing, a change the emotional makeup. Paul refers to the renewing of the spirit in the mind of the believer, put off the old and put on the new. See the New Testament book of Ephesians Chapter 4.

If a beautiful woman tells you she loves you and gives you a big hug and a kiss and this makes your spirit soar, is that not a real, verifiable experience? Can anyone tell you that your experience was false?

Knowing Jesus, as opposed to just going to church and believing Jesus' teachings, is a good thing. Out of the emotion of love comes the desire to share. God desires that all receive the gift of His love.

Jesus Christ is one of three things:
1. He was crazy.
2. He was a liar. Or,
3. He is who he says he is.

If He was either of the first two, why would any of the first disciples submit to beatings, imprisonment and execution to carry the gospel message to the world?

When I look at photos from the Hubble telescope, as one consideration, I have to accept a supreme creator being.

What evidence do you have to support your belief that God does not exist?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Butters 0]

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As I stated above, the evidence exists with the person who had the experience.

Are you laughing? I want to know if I'm laughing at you or with you ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[SpeedRacer 1]

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Jesus Christ is one of three things:
1. He was crazy.
2. He was a liar. Or,
3. He is who he says he is.

If He was either of the first two, why would any of the first disciples submit to beatings, imprisonment and execution to carry the gospel message to the world?

Just to play devil's advocate here: this alone isn't a very convincing argument. False prophets & cult leaders have also had their devout followers who would also suffer & die for their leader.

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[RonD1120 58]

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As I stated above, the evidence exists with the person who had the experience.

Are you laughing? I want to know if I'm laughing at you or with you ...

I don't know. I can't tell where you are coming from. I will assume you are laughing with me because at this posting there have been over 300 hits to a message I posted.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[pirana 0]

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Good message. Despite negative comments, if you manage to get reach one soul, good on you.

Even better if he could show that such a thing (the soul) exists.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[redlegphi 0]

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Jesus Christ is one of three things:
1. He was crazy.
2. He was a liar. Or,
3. He is who he says he is.

If He was either of the first two, why would any of the first disciples submit to beatings, imprisonment and execution to carry the gospel message to the world?

See also: David Koresh
See also: Jim Jones
See also: Osama bin Laden

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When I look at photos from the Hubble telescope, as one consideration, I have to accept a supreme creator being.

What evidence do you have to support your belief that God does not exist?

It's a logical impossibility to prove that something doesn't exist. It's up to you, as the person asserting that something does exist, to prove it. Please look up "Russel's Teapot".

[makeithappen40 0]

>As I stated above, the evidence exists with the person who had the experience. It is a change of personality, a change in the mental processing, a change the emotional makeup. Paul refers to the renewing of the spirit in the mind of the believer, put off the old and put on the new. See the New Testament book of Ephesians Chapter 4.

Ok. That kind of "evidence" doesnt do such a great job of convincing people. Also, where do you get the notion that sensory experience constitutes evidence? Sensory experience is very deniable. Think of all the times that your senses have failed you. Have you ever heard something that wasn't there? Have you ever felt pain when there was no pain to be felt? Have you ever seen something that can't be explained?
We have reason to suspect that empirical inputs are false, given that they have deceived us before. (Thank you, Descartes)

If a beautiful woman tells you she loves you and gives you a big hug and a kiss and this makes your spirit soar, is that not a real, verifiable experience? Can anyone tell you that your experience was false?

For the same reasons above, the empirical world is dubious in itself.
Can you tell anyone the experience was true?
Remember, religious arguments depend on faith in things that haven't been proven necessarily true. "Facts and evidence" are not the reason that you believe in God. Faith is. (And that is ok in my book, just don't say that you know that god exists... cause you don't.... That is true for the same reason that I don't know that God doesn't exist. We lack evidence)

>Knowing Jesus, as opposed to just going to church and believing Jesus' teachings, is a good thing.

I totally agree with you. However, we still don't have enough evidence to make it necessarily true that some ethical principles are in fact morally correct and others aren't. Therefore, you don't know that believing Jesus' teachings are good. However, I think they are good, just like you do.

>Out of the emotion of love comes the desire to share. God desires that all receive the gift of His love.

Totally. However, it would be interesting if you could tell me which pieces of information (that someone else gave you, btw) that makes it necessarily true and undeniable that God in fact says that. Your argument is problematic for the same reasons that an extremist muslim's arguments about God are false. You don't know that God said those things. You have inferred information from other assumptions that, while still allowed, aren't necessarily the case.


>Jesus Christ is one of three things:
1. He was crazy.
2. He was a liar. Or,
3. He is who he says he is.

>If He was either of the first two, why would any of the first disciples submit to beatings, imprisonment and execution to carry the gospel message to the world?
Because people lie to each other all the time. Remember the last time millions of people the world over believed in Naziism? Hitler didn't actually know if the supreme race was white persons or black persons. However, millions of people still followed him and millions died. Therefore, no matter how widespread your support is, widespread support is no reason to follow someone's teachings.

>When I look at photos from the Hubble telescope, as one consideration, I have to accept a supreme creator being.

It is pretty beautiful. One wonders how such a beautiful and perfect thing could have been created outside the control of a supreme perfect being. One still cannot say that the universe was created by a supreme being. Therefore, you're argument is still invalid.

>What evidence do you have to support your belief that God does not exist?
I don't. I also don't have sufficient evidence to bind the claim that "God does exist" to truth. Therefore, we have reason to suspect that God doesn't exist. (You don't, however, have to make this change your belief. I, for one, don't. I still believe in God. I just can't say that God really exists while remaining true to human capabilities concerning truth, evidence, and logic)

[pirana 0]

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However, we equally as much cannot say that god does not exist.

Also, we equally as much cannot say that Moon sized asteroids made of spinach and cream cheese do not exist and are hiding behind the Sun.

Fotunately for all of us, such reasoning is not relied upon for anything that matters and is instead relegated to debate of mysticism, conspiracy theories, miscellaneous Neolithic beliefs, etc.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[RonD1120 58]

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Jesus Christ is one of three things:
1. He was crazy.
2. He was a liar. Or,
3. He is who he says he is.

If He was either of the first two, why would any of the first disciples submit to beatings, imprisonment and execution to carry the gospel message to the world?

Just to play devil's advocate here: this alone isn't a very convincing argument. False prophets & cult leaders have also had their devout followers who would also suffer & die for their leader.

Quite true over time. All beliefs have their willing martyrs. I remember Buddhist monks self-immolating to protest the Diem government in South Vietnam.

What I am talking about is the very first followers, the first twelve, all becoming martyrs. Well, all except John, he was only scalded with boiling oil and then exiled to the island of Patmos, where he died of old age after completing five books of what became the New Testament Bible.

Chuck Colson, a key player in the Nixon administration, stated that when the Watergate scandal broke the best and the brightest, most powerful individuals in the world couldn't hold it together longer than two weeks.

These original followers of Christ were convinced that he was the Messiah, the Son of God. None, not one broke ranks. I don't know about you but, to me that is a powerful conviction.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Butters 0]

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I don't know. I can't tell where you are coming from. I will assume you are laughing with me because at this posting there have been over 300 hits to a message I posted.

I'm laughing because I have to live in a world where people like yourself aren't considered delusional even though they base reality on a fantasy devoid of logic and reason ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[pirana 0]

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When you are saved, you know that you know. It is a decision made in faith, perpetuated by faith, grounded in Scripture.

You might consider that there is a distinction between feelings and knowledge.

BTW, what are you, or were you, saved from?

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[makeithappen40 0]

>These original followers of Christ were convinced that he was the Messiah, the Son of God. None, not one broke ranks. I don't know about you but, to me that is a powerful conviction

Wow. That is pretty amazing.
People also had 2000 fewer years of history to look back on as well. Is it possible that they could have believed someone who in fact wasn't who he was? Were they any more deceivable than they are today? You have to admit, even today people are still VERY gullible. You know, kind of like how the Obama crowd is still very gullible.

[pirana 0]

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I am not here to argue. I am here to share.

Me too.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[makeithappen40 0]

Nice. Yea, there are many arguments that are not even probable given their possibility.

However, the God argument is still in terms of induction (probability) as opposed to sound deduction (truth by necessity). I.e. we can't say either way.

[RonD1120 58]

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Even better if he could show that such a thing (the soul) exists.

The soul is defined as the mind, the emotions and the will.

Do you think those elements exist?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[billvon 2,406]

>Jesus Christ is one of three things:
>1. He was crazy.
>2. He was a liar. Or,
>3. He is who he says he is.

Or, a fourth possibility:

He was who he said he was, but time, oral tradition and the natural human tendency to embellish have changed his story somewhat.

>If a beautiful woman tells you she loves you and gives you a big hug and
>a kiss and this makes your spirit soar, is that not a real, verifiable
>experience? Can anyone tell you that your experience was false?

If you see a movie that shows that happening, and you feel your spirit soar, would you call that a real, verifiable experience? Does that mean the movie is "real?"

[pirana 0]

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The Bible states that we will all accept Jesus Christ in His deity and His authority. It is better if we do it voluntarily while we are here on earth.

It always remains an individual choice. We all have free will.

Do you not see the weirdness, not to mention the contradictions you put forth?

Aside from the fact that it represents one of the barely veiled threats common to Christianity (accept Me or burn in Hell), saying the choice is to accept voluntarily on Earth, or . . . what? Face the consequences of accepting later?

The problem with Neolithic belief systems is not just that they are totally illogical; but that they are so totally out of place in this current era. The context of literally interpreted scripture is about as relevant to modern society as a 2-year olds perception is to that of an adult.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[redlegphi 0]

Why won't you just accept that God loves you so much that He'd send you to burn in hell for all eternity?

[RonD1120 58]

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You might consider that there is a distinction between feelings and knowledge.

BTW, what are you, or were you, saved from?

Absolutely, I agree there is a distinction.

I was saved from spiritual death, later delivered from the desire for alcohol and drugs. I have been saved with certainty of the experience since 16 Mar 81. I have been straight, clean and sober since 26 Mar 83. I have worked as a Christian based counselor since Apr 84. The Christian Skydivers Association was founded in Apr 87.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.