Shotgun 1 #376 June 5, 2009 QuoteI'm still seeing nothing in the options for the man that is forcing the woman to carry / abort against her wishes. I'm not either. Sorry, I didn't realize that's what you were arguing. I'm still not really sure what the point of this thread drift was. Unless it was to come up with a hypothetical situation in which this naturally unequal situation could be equal, which I don't think is possible. (And when I say that it is unequal, I mean unequal for all parties involved, but in different ways.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #377 June 5, 2009 Quote this thread has spiraled into fantasy land..... But it's my philosphical "fantasy land" to spar w/Mike and the rest. Thanks for a good reminder. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #378 June 5, 2009 Quotewhat is the difference between a viable fetus and a comatose person on life support? Older people tend to be tough and stringy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #379 June 5, 2009 QuoteThen why not stop combining the different portions because a good portion of the scenario is about choices and responsibilities w/r/t a living, birthed child (& not about choices/responsibilities before)? Because that was not part of the scenario - you're usually very good about staying within the guidelines when a scenario is given - obviously there's much more of an emotional attachment in this case. QuoteWhy selectively ignore the man’s autonomous opportunities to “opt out” w/r/t sex, e.g., vasectomy, barrier contraception, or other options? There are options for both sexes; until men can gestate, they will not be identical. Regardless of the reason for the pregnancy, the woman still has the ability to opt out - the man does not. So, we actually have the MAN'S autonomy being limited and not the woman's, since the current climate of the law says "he's gonna pay" whether he wants to or not. QuoteWe all know, as well, that underlying this is the opinion of some that would prefer women be denied the option to chose to abort. That's limiting the autonomy of one half. When did Roe get overturned in these scenarios? When did ANY of the scenarios REQUIRE a woman to get an abortion against her wishes or carry to term against her wishes? Seems to be a bit of a strawman argument, unless I missed a post somewhere.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #380 June 5, 2009 Quote Quote this thread has spiraled into fantasy land..... But it's my philosphical "fantasy land" to spar w/Mike and the rest. Thanks for a good reminder. /Marg It *has* been a good conversation, in that regard (the drift, not the OP).Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #381 June 5, 2009 QuoteI see your point. The only logical solution to the inequality is to remove the mother's option to abort. Kind of an odd pro-life angle but I get it. That's not the scenario. And I'm pro-choice. The difference is, I'm also pro-choice for the male. She gets to decline having and raising a kid. So should he. They should both get the same choice. In the end, all I hear is that the man and woman really do have the 'same rights' she gets to choose to abort or not any fetus in her uterus he also gets to choose to abort or not any fetus in his uterus (please refer to equivalent rights in different scenarios in any gay marriage thread in SC for further reference in which all parties trade sides) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #382 June 5, 2009 Quote ... than the notional woman should also has the right to deny a man's autonomy over his body. Do you want to allow someone else to demand or prohibit you (or any man) from having a vasectomy if he wants it? absolutely bull nowhere do I advocate that the man can force the woman to have a baby she wants to abort - nowhere no that the woman can force the man to have a vasectomy he doesn't want you just made that up In fact, my 4 situations clearly show that the woman has the only choice on whether to carry to term or not my points are that the woman has the choice on what to do about the term, the birth and the raising the man can't decide about taking to term (that conflict, the biology wins the argument, it's a given, so can stop trying to argue that because I'm not, I agree), but he should be able to decide about the rest - if the goal is to be equal and fair as possible ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yjumpinoz 0 #383 June 5, 2009 He is not eligible for capital punishment in Kansas. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #384 June 5, 2009 QuoteDuring the time frame you're suggesting, that scenario could deny a woman autonomy over her body. again, absolutely wrong. the woman has sole choice to abort or not the man's choice is whether he wants to abort the responsibilities AFTER the child would be born - just like the mother could have done you keep arguing about the choice to abort - that's not the drift we're in.... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
porpoishead 5 #385 June 5, 2009 right on, the abortion issue is always a passionate discussion.. people have sex all the time it's how we all got here....momma brought us in. were human and we use bad judgment sometimes and as a result things happen. sometimes the outcomes are less than desirable for whatever reasons, which starts the cycle all over again, time to make another decision. just make one that you can live with, and as far as I'm concerned I will still love you just the same.... much love and respect to all the ladies/mommas if you want a friend feed any animal Perry Farrell Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #386 June 5, 2009 QuoteQuoteThen why not stop combining the different portions because a good portion of the scenario is about choices and responsibilities w/r/t a living, birthed child (& not about choices/responsibilities before)? Because that was not part of the scenario - you're usually very good about staying within the guidelines when a scenario is given - obviously there's much more of an emotional attachment in this case. Actually it was part of the scenario, from the very start: "pay for the college bills" ... "pay for the medical bills." Those are responsibilities for birthed, living children. I've adjusted to the varying shifts that the scenario has taken. So, yes, I remain "very good about sticking to a guidelines" even when they're on shaky ground. I'm not dismissing your responses or anyone's as an "emotional attachment." Objecting to arguments and those who would like to deny/abridge/limit one's autonomy -- whether it's Taliban, al Qa'eda, Wahabists, or those who would limit a women's right to chose -- seems like a pretty reasonable practice. It's no more of an emotional attachment than any one's is to wanting to have a choice to defend oneself via a gun. QuoteQuoteWhy selectively ignore the man’s autonomous opportunities to “opt out” w/r/t sex, e.g., vasectomy, barrier contraception, or other options? There are options for both sexes; until men can gestate, they will not be identical. Regardless of the reason for the pregnancy, the woman still has the ability to opt out - the man does not. So, we actually have the MAN'S autonomy being limited and not the woman's, since the current climate of the law says "he's gonna pay" whether he wants to or not. No, that's not limting his autonomy by definition of autonomy (make choices for oneself, including about one's own body). Limiting his autonomy would be giving his partner the right to demand or prohibit a man from getting a vasectomy. He has autonomy is in the choices he makes. Men and women do surrender their autonomy, e.g., uniformed services being required to get vaccinations. That is an voluntary surrendering of autonomy. QuoteWhen did ANY of the scenarios REQUIRE a woman to get an abortion against her wishes or carry to term against her wishes? Seems to be a bit of a strawman argument, unless I missed a post somewhere. Well, as the thread started about the assassination of a medical doctor performing a legal procedure by someone opposed to women getting abortions, one doesn't need to overturn anything to recognize that as an underlying facet. And perhaps, you did. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #387 June 5, 2009 QuoteHow did abortion become equated with sterilization? It's not about abortion in this part, it's about when the woman chooses (her right) to have the child. Then does the father have the option to 'abort' his responsibilities? Just like the option the mother declined. To give him an equivalent choice. It's just about whether it's the closest equivalent or not. But people: 1 - can't get off the topic of abortion or not (autonomy of the woman's choice - which is a given actually) or 2 - that they find it distasteful to even discuss the idea of the dad having the right to be a deadbeat, so they refuse to assign it the parallel to the woman's choice to abort. So they quote trite and abused phrases to avoid the topic What's uncomfortable (and it should be) is shining the light on the fact that a man refusing to raise the child he made is the moral gender equivalent of the woman refusing to bear and raise the child she made. And that the legal system and political environment celebrates one, but demonizes the other. anyway, fun digression, it's getting emotional, so I'm withdrawing my 10 foot stick - good luck you guys - it was very illuminating you just had the abortion discussion from a different direction and had to argue the other guys side - how did it feel? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #388 June 5, 2009 QuoteQuoteDuring the time frame you're suggesting, that scenario could deny a woman autonomy over her body. again, absolutely wrong. the woman has sole choice to abort or not the man's choice is whether he wants to abort the responsibilities AFTER the child would be born - just like the mother could have done you keep arguing about the choice to abort - that's not the drift we're in.... For a "drift" not about the choice to abort, why did you mention it twice in this post? You're still not acknowledging the man's choice w/r/t contraception or other options, which still means the scenario and its implications don't make sense. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #389 June 5, 2009 Quote Actually it was part of the scenario, from the very start: "pay for the college bills" ... "pay for the medical bills." Those are responsibilities for birthed, living children. I took that as an initial argument in response to the fact that it's 100% the woman's decision as to the pregnancy, not as a starting point for the scenario he described later - I could be wrong, and hopefully he'll point out if I am. Quote He has autonomy is in the choices he makes. "Pay or you go to jail" - yeah, I guess he does have a choice to make for himself - pay, or go to jail. Quote Quote When did ANY of the scenarios REQUIRE a woman to get an abortion against her wishes or carry to term against her wishes? Seems to be a bit of a strawman argument, unless I missed a post somewhere. Well, as the thread started about the assassination of a medical doctor performing a legal procedure by someone opposed to women getting abortions, one doesn't need to overturn anything to recognize that as an underlying facet. And perhaps, you did. /Marg The murder was not part of rehmwa's scenario either, unless I'm greatly mistaken.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #390 June 5, 2009 I like you. You're smart. as for prevention, that's a given - both can do something at the start. It doesn't really play. But then, again, we're drifting back to the original. have a good weekend ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #391 June 5, 2009 QuoteFor a "drift" not about the choice to abort, why did you mention it twice in this post? when I said the man "aborted" I didn't mean he forces the woman to abort, I just mean he chooses to not want the child I think that tripped you up. It why I put it in quotes...... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #392 June 5, 2009 Quote Quote He has autonomy is in the choices he makes. "Pay or you go to jail" - yeah, I guess he does have a choice to make for himself - pay, or go to jail. She has the same choices if he has custody. So, if those are the choices you want to discuss; yes, there is equality. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
porpoishead 5 #393 June 5, 2009 Views3397 Replies 391 bunch of fucking extremists....me too i'm one also if you want a friend feed any animal Perry Farrell Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #394 June 5, 2009 Quote Quote Quote He has autonomy is in the choices he makes. "Pay or you go to jail" - yeah, I guess he does have a choice to make for himself - pay, or go to jail. She has the same choices if he has custody. So, if those are the choices you want to discuss; yes, there is equality. /Marg He has other choices, if he's at the "money or jail" point (said point making it obvious that he didn't have custody)? Please enlighten me.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #395 June 5, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote He has autonomy is in the choices he makes. "Pay or you go to jail" - yeah, I guess he does have a choice to make for himself - pay, or go to jail. She has the same choices if he has custody. So, if those are the choices you want to discuss; yes, there is equality. He has other choices, if the woman decides to carry to term? Please enlighten me. I've actually mentioned them multiple times: vasectomy, barrior contraceptives, or other options w/r/t sex. Artificially limiting the window of possible opportunities for a man to make choices to the nine months before birth is roughly akin to telling someone that they can only deploy their main in the last 900 feet of a skydive; it makes no sense, especially if you jumped from an Otter at 14k. Recognizing the current state of biology is that only women get pregnate, the options for a man to chose to not impregnate a woman aren't part of hypothetical scenarios that have been put forth. Pretending or insisting that he doesn't have those options (or she have contraceptive options as well) and that the only option is abort/not abort makes it a less than a logically robust proposition. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #396 June 5, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote He has autonomy is in the choices he makes. "Pay or you go to jail" - yeah, I guess he does have a choice to make for himself - pay, or go to jail. She has the same choices if he has custody. So, if those are the choices you want to discuss; yes, there is equality. He has other choices, if the woman decides to carry to term? Please enlighten me. I've actually mentioned them multiple times: vasectomy, barrior contraceptives, or other options w/r/t sex. Artificially limiting the window of possible opportunities for a man to make choices to the nine months before birth is roughly akin to telling someone that they can only deploy their main in the last 900 feet of a skydive; it makes no sense, especially if you jumped from an Otter at 14k. Recognizing the current state of biology is that only women get pregnate, the options for a man to chose to not impregnate a woman aren't part of hypothetical scenarios. Pretending or insisting that he doesn't have those options (or she have contraceptive options as well) and that the only option is abort/not abort makes it a less than a logically robust proposition. /Marg The woman is pregnant - whether it was her contraception or his that failed is immaterial. He doesn't have custody, since he didn't want the baby in the first place (hence why he's at the "pay or jail" juncture). Tell me what OTHER options he has besides "pay or jail" in that situation, and why that DOESN'T affect his autonomy?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #397 June 5, 2009 Quote again, absolutely wrong. That’s okay, I’m used to being told I'm wrong. Last night, I was told I was wrong because I did not accept that there was a widespread perception in the 1980s among the US populace that communists from South & Central America invading the US were a real threat. Last week a group of anthropologists told me my involvement with an Army program was very wrong. And all the ways the program was wrong. And a couple months ago a couple of snarky Army LTCs told me I was wrong (“naïve”) about (the need for) AfPakIndia strategy. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #398 June 5, 2009 QuoteHe doesn't have custody, since he didn't want the baby in the first place (hence why he's at the "pay or jail" juncture). If she doesn’t want the child but he has custody, her options are “pay or jail” too. The same as his. The legal basis requiring parents (of either gender) to pay child support are based on the needs and interests of the child. That’s whose college bills one pays for … or not. That’s the 3rd party. If he didn’t want to be in the position to “pay or jail”, then he had the options that have been mentioned previously. His autonnomy is not limited. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #399 June 5, 2009 QuoteQuoteHe doesn't have custody, since he didn't want the baby in the first place (hence why he's at the "pay or jail" juncture). If she doesn’t want the child but he has custody, her options are “pay or jail” too. The same as his. If she didn't want the child, she has the option of adoption or abortion - that doesn't play. QuoteIf he didn’t want to be in the position to “pay or jail”, then he had the options that have been mentioned previously. His autonnomy is not limited. And so did she - that point is moot after the pregnancy occurs, so bringing it up again and again starts to become a strawman argument. The fact is that HIS responsibility is tied to HER decision, regardless of his wishes - that is the point of the scenario, to show that inequality.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #400 June 5, 2009 QuoteDuring the time frame you're suggesting, that scenario could deny a woman autonomy over her body. Can you please explain how?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
