Atheist advert provokes complaint

[JackC 0]

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Sorry if this sounds smartarse-ish but: 'Consider for now it being something you can't logically explain'.

Argumentum ad populum in never logical. Ever.

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Who said ignore logic?

You seem to want to, when it suits. Why else would you be giving me such a hard time over it?

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If you've an individual with no experience, what's the solution? What have you done to come to your conclusion? Again, what about these people with experience? Doesn't that play merry hell with your conclusion on the subject?

I answered this already. Break the problem down and start with the bits you do know the answer to. Then work the problem through logically.

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Basically imagine person 'A' has had several experiences which he believes are evidence of an afterlife. He meets person 'B'. They both discover they've had virtually the same experiences. Funny old thing, so has person 'C'. Then person 'D' joins in the conversation. Poor 'D', he hasn't had anything like the experiences which cause A,B & C to believe in an afterlife. What does 'D' go and do? What should he do?

And we're right back to argumentum ad populum. What D should do is think the problem through and see if the others have got it right or not. Any opinion is worth absolutely fuck all unless you can explain why you hold that opinion and back it up with fact. Simply buying whatever you're fed just because a couple of people say so is stupid and lazy.

Seriously dude, this is getting really old.

[vortexring 0]

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Sorry if this sounds smartarse-ish but: 'Consider for now it being something you can't logically explain'.

Argumentum ad populum in never logical. Ever.

Agreed. Why do you keep going on about argumentum ad populum when you know that's not where my point lies?

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Who said ignore logic?

You seem to want to, when it suits. Why else would you be giving me such a hard time over it?

No I don't. Every point I make your automatic answer predominantly consists of argumentum ad populum!

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Basically imagine person 'A' has had several experiences which he believes are evidence of an afterlife. He meets person 'B'. They both discover they've had virtually the same experiences. Funny old thing, so has person 'C'. Then person 'D' joins in the conversation. Poor 'D', he hasn't had anything like the experiences which cause A,B & C to believe in an afterlife. What does 'D' go and do? What should he do?

And we're right back to argumentum ad populum. What D should do is think the problem through and see if the others have got it right or not. Any opinion is worth absolutely fuck all unless you can explain why you hold that opinion and back it up with fact. Simply buying whatever you're fed just because a couple of people say so is stupid and lazy.

You're completely missing the point. (And we're not back to argumentum ad populum either.) Do you really think I believe 'D' should agree with or share A,B, & C's beliefs!!?

(Almost everyday I see 'people' who'd love nothing better than to kill me - and themselves in the process if necessary, so as to go off to heaven and meet all the virgins they've been pulling their heads off to. A lot of 'people' believe in this Jack. I'm very fucking far from convinced. But I can't completely rule the possibility out either.)

Back to the point. You say: 'What D should do is think the problem through and see if the others have got it right or not'. I agree. How will he know if A,B, & C have got it 'right' though? He can't can he?
They can't back it up with evidence.

Imagine A,B, & C are people you completely trust, people you know to be stable, rational and intelligent. People just like you perhaps. And apart from their strange experience they've explained to you, they're still the same old stable, rational and intelligent people.

What would your reaction to all this be now?

Would you bleat out 'argumentum ad populum!!!' then do a runner?

Or state that their beliefs are not something you can logically explain because they are not logical?

Or would you disregard their beliefs, saying you'll continue to do so until they provide cold, rational evidence?

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Seriously dude, this is getting really old.

It is mate. I'm not trying to score points or 'win' what's obviously a discussion that can't be won. I'm just interested in hearing your answers to the questions I've put to you.

Perhaps your final answer to the scenario I've described would be to disregard their beliefs, saying you'll continue to do so until they provide cold, rational evidence. . .

Or is it?

You'd be desperate to know the truth behind it all, wouldn't you? It'd be fascinating! The last question is; how far would you go to learn the truth?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[br0k3n 0]

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You're too late; a friend of mine prayed to God to turn himself into a steak and kidney pie, which of course, he was obliged to do. My friend then ate him. Sorry if that's spoiled your experiment.

How would that spoil my experiment, or are you attempting humor?

Isn't it obvious how it'd spoil your experiment?

Earlier you said: "And you did say in Mark 11:24 “Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. “

Well, like I told you, my mate prayed to God, and asked Him to turn Himself into a steak and kidney pie, which God, through the power of my friends prayer, had no choice but to do so. My friend then scoffed the pie. So perhaps you should have tried your experiment earlier, before my friend done his?

how did he know it was the correct pie?

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[JackC 0]

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You're completely missing the point. (And we're not back to argumentum ad populum either.) Do you really think I believe 'D' should agree with or share A,B, & C's beliefs!!?

From what you've written, it seems pretty obvious that you are saying that in the event of no evidence, D would be justified in falling in behind A, B and C because they are deemed to be "trustworthy". That is argumentum ad populum by definition and your continual denial wont change that.

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Imagine A,B, & C are people you completely trust, people you know to be stable, rational and intelligent. People just like you perhaps. And apart from their strange experience they've explained to you, they're still the same old stable, rational and intelligent people.

What would your reaction to all this be now?

Exactly the same. If you want me to believe something, you will have to convince me that it is true. If you cannot do that, then your opinion is worthless no matter who you are.

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Or state that their beliefs are not something you can logically explain because they are not logical?

Like I said, bullshit detection is one of the main uses of logic.

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Or would you disregard their beliefs, saying you'll continue to do so until they provide cold, rational evidence?

What they believe is their business, not mine. But you won't catch me believing it unless they can convince me that it is true by producing a coherent argument backed up with facts. Put up or shut up.

[br0k3n 0]

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There could be another reason why your prayers are not answered.

"It’s your sins that have cut you off from God. Because of your sins, he has turned away and will not listen anymore."

Ok i asked my sister who is a christian to repeat my prayer, and well guess what!!!!!!!!

Any other excuses for your lack of God?

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[br0k3n 0]

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Either way it doesn't matter, as i think it is quite safe to say that our little prayer has fallen on deaf ears, if those ears even exist.

So what can we take away from this,

1. Prayer doesnt work
2. God doesnt answer prayer, cant be bothered.
3. ooh and the big one, GOD DOESN'T EXIST.....

..................................or.....................

4. You don't understand what prayer is about and ask for things with improper motives.

"You ask and do not receive because you ask with wrong motives" James 4:3


...

And what were those "wrong" motives????

How about just for once, stop making excuses for your God, and consider just for a moment that he might and probably isn't up there...

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[vortexring 0]

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You're completely missing the point. (And we're not back to argumentum ad populum either.) Do you really think I believe 'D' should agree with or share A,B, & C's beliefs!!?

From what you've written, it seems pretty obvious that you are saying that in the event of no evidence, D would be justified in falling in behind A, B and C because they are deemed to be "trustworthy". That is argumentum ad populum by definition and your continual denial wont change that.

Utter shite! It should seem pretty obvious that what I'm saying is 'D' shouldn't be justified in falling in behind A,B & C because they're trustworthy. No way. But you know that - guess you went for the: " Would you bleat out 'argumentum ad populum!!!' then do a runner?" option. The easy option. What a surprise.

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Imagine A,B, & C are people you completely trust, people you know to be stable, rational and intelligent. People just like you perhaps. And apart from their strange experience they've explained to you, they're still the same old stable, rational and intelligent people.

What would your reaction to all this be now?

Exactly the same. If you want me to believe something, you will have to convince me that it is true. If you cannot do that, then your opinion is worthless no matter who you are.

You don't get it!Nobodies asking you to believe fuck all, alright? It's a simple scenario which could lead to an individual questioning what he believes. Not to change his beliefs. Just to question them. To arouse interest. To maybe dig into the matter a bit deeper.

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What they believe is their business, not mine. But you won't catch me believing it unless they can convince me that it is true by producing a coherent argument backed up with facts. Put up or shut up.

Like I said earlier; nobodies asked you to believe A,B & C's experiences. I've only mentioned they're stable and trustworthy so that it would be unlikely for them to make the scenario up. So, now that that's been established, do you deny the scenario wouldn't arouse interest?

Do you sincerely claim you would disregard their beliefs, saying you'll continue to do so until they provide cold, rational evidence?

You'd want to know exactly WTF these claims were all about.

'You'd be desperate to know the truth behind it all, wouldn't you? It'd be fascinating! The last question is; how far would you go to learn the truth?'

Obviously not very far in your case. How incredibly dull!

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[vortexring 0]

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You're too late; a friend of mine prayed to God to turn himself into a steak and kidney pie, which of course, he was obliged to do. My friend then ate him. Sorry if that's spoiled your experiment.

How would that spoil my experiment, or are you attempting humor?

Isn't it obvious how it'd spoil your experiment?

Earlier you said: "And you did say in Mark 11:24 “Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. “

Well, like I told you, my mate prayed to God, and asked Him to turn Himself into a steak and kidney pie, which God, through the power of my friends prayer, had no choice but to do so. My friend then scoffed the pie. So perhaps you should have tried your experiment earlier, before my friend done his?

how did he know it was the correct pie?

Why wouldn't he know? Besides, I asked him how it tasted, and he reckoned it was 'heavenly'.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[JackC 0]

What the fuck are you on about?

[vortexring 0]

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What the fuck are you on about?

Regarding what mate? The steak and kidney pie?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[maadmax 0]

And what were those "wrong" motives????

How about just for once, stop making excuses for your God, and consider just for a moment that he might and probably isn't up there...

[frequentfaller 0]

how dare thee ask for the right thing for the wrong reason. Do like nfl football players. ask for touchdowns! some of them will get their prayers answered, some will be damned in defeat. (sorry I watched all the playoff games this weekend)

Born ok 1st time.

[br0k3n 0]

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And what were those "wrong" motives????

How about just for once, stop making excuses for your God, and consider just for a moment that he might and probably isn't up there...

Are you serious? The motives behind your prayer request are pretty obvious. God is in charge of reality construction, not us. We are to submit to His will and purpose and our prayers should reflect that.
I don't make excuses for God. I just try to understand Him and act accordingly.

excuses, excuses, excuses...

I asked your god to end suffering, pain, war, and to stop babies starving to death. What would be the "right" motives then? Now for someone who is "all powerfull" this should be a fairly simple task. Yet STILL nothing... HELLO McFly....

Anyway as I stated in a previous post, to counter this pathetic excuse, i asked my sister, who is a fully fledged god believing, church going christian to repeat my prayer and yet STILL NOTHING.... NOTHING what so ever.....

Also if your still not happy with this outcome, then how about you repeat my prayer. god will surely not ignore you!

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[maadmax 0]

Also if your still not happy with this outcome, then how about you repeat my prayer. god will surely not ignore you!

My prayer it this, that all people would know God. I am fully confident that my prayer will be answered. If not in this life, then in the next. See, wasn't that easy.

...

[jerryzflies 0]

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And what were those "wrong" motives????

How about just for once, stop making excuses for your God, and consider just for a moment that he might and probably isn't up there...

Are you serious? The motives behind your prayer request are pretty obvious. God is in charge of reality construction, not us. We are to submit to His will and purpose and our prayers should reflect that.
I don't make excuses for God. I just try to understand Him and act accordingly.

excuses, excuses, excuses...

I asked your god to end suffering, pain, war, and to stop babies starving to death. What would be the "right" motives then? Now for someone who is "all powerfull" this should be a fairly simple task. Yet STILL nothing... HELLO McFly....

[br0k3n 0]

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Also if your still not happy with this outcome, then how about you repeat my prayer. god will surely not ignore you!

My prayer it this, that all people would know God. I am fully confident that my prayer will be answered. If not in this life, then in the next. See, wasn't that easy.

...

Selfish and stupid, why not pray for something significant, like the end of world hunger? but as that doesn't really effect you then who cares hey also it will just provide another example how spectacularly bad your god is at answering prayer, and we wouldn't want that now would we..

Are you familiar with the Dr. Mitchell Krucoff, and his study of 748 patients undergoing heart catheterization and percutaneous coronary intervention???

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[maadmax 0]

Selfish and stupid, why not pray for something significant, like the end of world hunger? but as that doesn't really effect you then who cares hey also it will just provide another example how spectacularly bad your god is at answering prayer, and we wouldn't want that now would we..

Are you familiar with the Dr. Mitchell Krucoff, and his study of 748 patients undergoing heart catheterization and percutaneous coronary intervention???

If it is the study I am thinking of it showed that prayer did not have any significant effect on the out come of the procedure. Which is fine. For me the most powerful part of prayer is for personal growth and understanding. I pray daily and consider it an extremely valuable part of my life experience. I will occasionally make a request, but only ask for it to be answered if it is consistent with Gods plan. Other wise I will pray for understanding, which is almost always answered.

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[br0k3n 0]

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If it is the study I am thinking of it showed that prayer did not have any significant effect on the out come of the procedure. Which is fine. For me the most powerful part of prayer is for personal growth and understanding. I pray daily and consider it an extremely valuable part of my life experience.

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This is the same reaction people who believe in psychics have, when they receive a (cold/warm) reading they simply and most often without really thinking about it automatically dismiss all the misses and only remember the few hits, this then keeps there belief nice and safe and infact reinforces it.

And this is what you are doing here, faced with some rather confronting evidence that prayer doesn't work, it is simply dismissed. Quite often in these threads you use the term "close minded" to describe us skeptics/atheist however I think you would have admit now that is you that is close minded, not open to any information or evidence that might raise tricky questions about your belief.

You claim perceived personal growth & understanding is a valuable part of your life experience, what do you consider to be a valuable part of a starving 3rd world child's life experience?

Would you not perhaps consider giving up your personal growth and understanding for a while while your god attended to feeding some starving children?

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I will occasionally make a request, but only ask for it to be answered if it is consistent with Gods plan. Other wise I will pray for understanding, which is almost always answered. ...

So what you are doing here is first giving your god a "get out" clause for not answering your prayer which in turns prevents any doubt of his existence creeping in. Second you pray for "understanding" which is a sort of get out clause, as it is unquantifiable, so you never really know whether your prayer has been answered.

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

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[maadmax 0]

Well, as it is, I was not consulted when every thing was being set up, otherwise I would have lobbied for things to be a bit different. This is a very confusing place, and our species has been created with a strong instinct to sort out the chaos both scientifically and spiritually. I think enough clues exist to do both. Who knows why things are the way they are. I just take what I see and experience and draw the best conclusions I can. If you have found something better I am all ears. But you will have to do amazing things to beat what Christ is offering us in real time.

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[br0k3n 0]

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But you will have to do amazing things to beat what Christ is offering us in real time.

...

and what exactly is that, and by the way I notice you completely ignored my last post.

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[philh 0]

I think a good way to demonstrate an open mind is to be able to complete the following sentencce in a reasonable way
I will change my mind if ....

[maadmax 0]

--and what exactly is that,

[maadmax 0]

I think a good way to demonstrate an open mind is to be able to complete the following sentencce in a reasonable way


I will change my mind when ALL of the evidence suggests otherwise.

[beowulf 1]

Now you just need a course in critical thinking and you will be better able to reason out what is good evidence and what isn't.

[br0k3n 0]

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I think a good way to demonstrate an open mind is to be able to complete the following sentencce in a reasonable way


I will change my mind when ALL of the evidence suggests otherwise.

Currently there is an enourmous ammount of evidence to suggest that gods DO NOT exist, and it is ever increasing, and not a shred of evidence to suggest they DO exist.

However I am much easier to please then you, I will change my mind when there is ONE piece of evidence to suggest your god or any god exists.

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+