IDF-Head butting a woman

[falxori 0]

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You do see that you're using a small group's desire to see Israel gone as justification for war crimes against a larger population don't you?

last time I checked, Hamas was the government. the same Hamas who openly and clearly declares that it will not stop until Israel is destroyed and "whole" of Palestine is released. this is no "small group", its the group in power.

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We've been through this before. If Israel would return to the green line and take its illegal settlers and occupying military forces with it, there could be peace.

if that was true we would have had peace in 2000. I said in the past and I'll say it again now. I consider the west bank to be as much as Israeli as it is Palestinian and you cannot dispute the historic connection the Jewish people has to these lands. having said that, I realize (as do most Israelis) that there is another nation with the same claim and that the only way is to divide the land we both see as our own.

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And again, I know this is where we disagree but there is no disputed territory. None of the West Bank is for Israel's taking.

you can't say there is no disputed territory, obviously, there is.

I would really like to believe that if Israel pulls back to the 1967 line, it will all end. but look at history and look at the fact.
- this mess started long before 1967, even before 1948...
- whenever Israel pulled back (Gaza, parts of the west bank, Lebanon), there was no peace and quiet
- Hezbollah continued its attacks across the border (one of which led to war 2 years ago)
- Hamas is firing rocket DAILY at Israeli towns across the border (although officialy we should have a cease fire now). not to mention their declerations about not recognizing Israel's right to exist.

really, I (and most Israelis) can live within the 1967 borders. its not easy, because I do feel attached to these lands but I am willing to give it up for peace and quiet.
but, if the other party (and our friend Darius here) claims that the only way to make it right is to destroy the state of Israel, then we have a problem, dont you think?
O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[kelpdiver 2]

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You do see that you're using a small group's desire to see Israel gone as justification for war crimes against a larger population don't you?

Actually, this time around he was only answering to the ridiculous comparison of the Nazi genocide to the results of the Israeli-Arab conflict. Personally, I didn't think it warranted the dignity of discussion, but since he's actually there, I imagine it's hard to dismiss out of hand.

[Darius11 12]

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you really can't see the difference, can you?
you can't see the difference between systematic killing an entire religion, regardless of their nationality or location and a teritorial dispute (although not pretty) between two nations?

I can see the difference but the philosophy is the same. I am not claiming that the Israelis have killed 6 million Palestinians, but the segregation, racism, and the attitude of superiority is there.

Can you see the similarity of the KKK and the Nazis? The KKK might not have the same amount of atrocities but you can easily see the philosophy is the same.

I clearly rememberr when Sharon said an operation that killed 9 children was a success and showed no remorse for the Palestinian children until there was the fear of a public world outrage. Then he changed his tune to save his ass. He acted as if the Palestinian children were bugs that to me is very cruel, and very Nazi like. There is countless examples of such attitude.

I see you talk about the Palestinian acts of violence. Yes they do exist and there are bad elements on both sides. For me i tend to take sides with the guy who had his home and land stolen and not the people doing the steeling. That's the difference maker for me.

If a thief comes in to my home with a gun and i kill him i am not the ass hole he is.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

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Personally, I didn't think it warranted the dignity of discussion

I think you are incapable of seeing it. Israel is a country with Jews only roads. Yea that's not racist i am sure if there was a road in America which was for whits only or Christians only that would not be racist either? I think your vision is clouded and you do your best to find excuses for a country that openly practises racism (based on religion).

I have often been accused by people who just don't know better that i am emotionally involved. Reality check. I am not Arab, and my culture does not view Arabs as brothers. Again culturally most Iranians despite what you here from the government side with Israeli. I also have no friends who are Palestinians. If i based my logic only on my sense of camaraderie i would blindly support Israel as well as they have much more Persians in there country then the Palestinians do. So i do not base my opinion on what most assume.
I have seen the cruelty and theft that has accrued and is occurring every day and find it morally wrong. What fuels my emotions is how casually the cruelty and injustice is excused by some.

I am sorry that all you see in all my post is an angry Arab who wants to kill Jews, but please remember that's not my failing but yours.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[falxori 0]

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but the segregation, racism, and the attitude of superiority is there.

you use big words without really understanding what it is you are saying.
and as always, you use ambiguity to back your claims, ignoring the facts that make your claims invalid.

as always, you dont make the difference between Israeli arabs, which are EQUAL BY LAW and have the exact same rights as I do (beside not having to serve in the army) and the palestinians in the west bank and Gaza which are NOT ISRAELI CITIZENS.

to say they suffer from racism because they dont have the same rights as me is like saying an illigal immigrant from Mexico not allowed to work in the US is racism.
further more, ISRAEL DOES NOT CONTROL GAZA. there is not a single israeli citizen nor soldier (beside the kidnapped one (which is held against all human rights treaties, btw). and still missiles fly out of Gaza TARGETTING CIVILIAN CITIES.

where does it say that Israel HAS to keep the border crossing to Gaza open or supply them with food, fuel and power? show me one other example in history where one country kept supplying another country while in a state of war with it?

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can easily see the philosophy is the same.

Dude, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. then again, according the the Iranian president there was no holocaust, so maybe the Nazis weren't that bad, right?

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For me i tend to take sides with the guy who had his home and land stolen and not the people doing the steeling.

I'll ask you the same question I ask you whenever you determine "ownership".
by what date do you set the ownership?
what makes 1948 more viable than 100BC in setting a nation's homeland?
O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[falxori 0]

and again you speak without knowing what you're talking about (or maybe you do and ignore it)

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Israel is a country with Jews only roads

first of all, its not in Israel, its in the west bank (which was never annexed to israel). and just as they are "jewish" roads, there are "palestinian" roads where jewish israelis are not allowed. the reason is racism, its security. Have as many terrorist attacks and drive by shootings as we had, and you'll see the reasoning behind keeping a distance between the two.

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I am sorry that all you see in all my post is an angry Arab who wants to kill Jews

I don't really care what your motives are, but maybe you should have a reality check and stop ignoring the parts of history that dont allign with your theory.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[kelpdiver 2]

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Dude, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. then again, according the the Iranian president there was no holocaust, so maybe the Nazis weren't that bad, right?

Perhaps that's how he sees them as equivalent events.

[idrankwhat 0]

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last time I checked, Hamas was the government. the same Hamas who openly and clearly declares that it will not stop until Israel is destroyed and "whole" of Palestine is released. this is no "small group", its the group in power.

And some of their leaders have also said that they were willing to work something out if Israel would retreat to the '67 border.

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if that was true we would have had peace in 2000.

The terms in 2000 were ridiculously lopsided in favor of Israel.

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I said in the past and I'll say it again now. I consider the west bank to be as much as Israeli as it is Palestinian and you cannot dispute the historic connection the Jewish people has to these lands. having said that, I realize (as do most Israelis) that there is another nation with the same claim and that the only way is to divide the land we both see as our own.

I'm very glad to hear this. More of this sort of dialog and good things can happen.

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And again, I know this is where we disagree but there is no disputed territory. None of the West Bank is for Israel's taking.

- Hezbollah continued its attacks across the border (one of which led to war 2 years ago)
- Hamas is firing rocket DAILY at Israeli towns across the border (although officialy we should have a cease fire now). not to mention their declerations about not recognizing Israel's right to exist.

[Amazon 7]

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Just because one small segment wishes the absurd, a group that I do not believe includes Darius, is no reason to dehumanize and abuse an entire population. That's collective punishment and it's a war crime according to the Geneva convention. You can't allow the minority fanatical groups to derail the larger goals, unless you want them to.

One small segment??????


PPPPPPUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHHHLLLLLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZZZEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Get the fucking shovel out.. that is some deep bullshit you are peddlin there.


I would look for how many muslims actually think Israel has a right to exist... it certainly does not look like all that many wish to even consider it....unless its a short term tactical decision that can be broken later.

http://www.pmw.org.il/Denying%20Israel's%20right%20to%20exist.htm

I guess you would be good with that .. huh.

[idrankwhat 0]

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as always, you dont make the difference between Israeli arabs, which are EQUAL BY LAW and have the exact same rights as I do (beside not having to serve in the army) and the palestinians in the west bank and Gaza which are NOT ISRAELI CITIZENS.

Correct, they are residents of their own land, which Israel occupies. Israel is responsible for them according to the Geneva conventions.

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ISRAEL DOES NOT CONTROL GAZA. there is not a single israeli citizen nor soldier (beside the kidnapped one (which is held against all human rights treaties, btw). and still missiles fly out of Gaza TARGETTING CIVILIAN CITIES.

YES, Israel DOES control gaza!!!! To not accept that fact is completely disingenuous.

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where does it say that Israel HAS to keep the border crossing to Gaza open or supply them with food, fuel and power?
show me one other example in history where one country kept supplying another country while in a state of war with it?

Again, collective punishment is a war crime.

[idrankwhat 0]

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Israel is a country with Jews only roads

first of all, its not in Israel, its in the west bank (which was never annexed to israel). and just as they are "jewish" roads, there are "palestinian" roads where jewish israelis are not allowed. the reason is racism, its security.

[falxori 0]

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And some of their leaders have also said that they were willing to work something out if Israel would retreat to the '67 border

I'm not talking about "some of their leaders" i'm talking about THE leaders. the prime minister and the head of Hamas in Syria. they are the ones who make the decisions.
just 2 days ago, in a rally in Gaza (around 300,000 people...), Ismail Haniya, Hamas' leader in Gaza, reated that they would never recognise Israel...

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The terms in 2000 were ridiculously lopsided in favor of Israel.

if i remember correctly it about 96% of the west bank and gaza, and the rest in territory swapping. If you accept the west bank and Gaza as the palestinian state, then its pretty much all of it. if you consider all of Israel as the palestinian state, then you're right, its not.

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That's collective punishment and it's a war crime according to the Geneva convention.

you keep bringing up the Geneva convention. you should note that it does not apply here.
yes, it states that civilians are not to be targetted and that hitting them should be avoided. but it also clearly states that combatants HAVE to be marked by distinct uniform and that ANY military activity should be well seperated from civilian population. when firing rockets from back yards and shooting from within homes, you cannot get behind the Geneca convention.

and what about the kidnapped israeli soldier? no one knows if he is dead or alive, where he is or what is his status. they won't even let the red cross visit him. i'm sure there is a nice little chapter about POWs in Geneva convention, isnt there?

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You can't allow the minority fanatical groups to derail the larger goals,

no you shouldnt, and that what Arafat failed to do when he kept them as "plan B" after the Oslo accords. then they become more powerful than his party and now they are the ruling party. this is no longer a minority, this is their government.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[idrankwhat 0]

I can see that none of the lengthy and well cited discussions that we've had earlier have changed anything. I'm not about to re-hash the exact same arguments again. If anyone else is interested then I suggest you search this forum. However your earlier post in which you mentioned openness to some of the ideas laid out in the Geneva Accord, makes me think that there's an opening for some real progress. I hope that our new administration recognizes the value of a peaceful two state solution and will actively pursue an avenue such as the GA, in direct contrast to the hands-off policy of his predecessor.
Now I leave you and Darius to your lopsided emotional exchanges of half truths.
I'm sorry I got sucked into it again.
Best of luck in the New Year.
[celebratory vice of your choice]

[Darius11 12]

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Now I leave you and Darius to your lopsided emotional exchanges of half truths.

Hey i am not lopsided, i am trying to balance out the lopsidedness Oh well. No matter what I say all they here is blah blah blah hatread for Jews.


Have a good New Year as well.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[idrankwhat 0]

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Now I leave you and Darius to your lopsided emotional exchanges of half truths.

Hey i am not lopsided, i am trying to balance out the lopsidedness Oh well. No matter what I say all they here is blah blah blah hatread for Jews.


Have a good New Year as well.

Sorry, you're right. I was just trying to back out of the emotional exchanges that typically favor hyperbole over balance. I've got similar problems with people insinuating (or outright saying) that I'm a Jew hater simply because I point out the side of the argument that rarely gets any press.

A little over a month to go and maybe we'll see some "change" in the tone of the dialog....or believe it or not....maybe some action.

Cheers!

[falxori 0]

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Sorry, you're right.

ofcourse he is....

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I've got similar problems with people insinuating (or outright saying) that I'm a Jew hater

I dont remember calling you a jew hater. I think i'm pretty factual in what I say. I believe your view of the situation is a bit twisted and biased and I believe Darius' view is (at based) unbased and sometimes fictional.
there is nothing emotional about what I say. with all do respect, I don't know the two of you well enough to get emotional about this.

but, its not the first time an incomplete picture is draen (e.g your apartheid statement) and when the full picture is drawn (e.g the reason for this seperation and the facts that Israelis cant go on the "Palestinian" roads either), this specific issue is dropped until next time.

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I point out the side of the argument that rarely gets any press

oh please, there is nothing the press loves more than the "underdog" with rocks against tanks. these are no rocks that are flying over the border out of Gaza, its missiles.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[idrankwhat 0]

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I dont remember calling you a jew hater.

Indeed, you have not. And I appreciate that. But others who are not nearly as in touch with the situation have. But that's expected and it only bothers me in it's attempt to negate my argument through ad hominem attacks.

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I think i'm pretty factual in what I say. I believe your view of the situation is a bit twisted and biased and I believe Darius' view is (at based) unbased and sometimes fictional.

I'll not comment regarding Darius' arguments but as for my own, they're from the view of an unwilling third party financier of the perpetuation of the conflict. My views mostly stem from my anger after I dug deeper and found that I was being manipulated by my media through deliberate omission of the nature of both sides of the conflict, as well as my anger at my government for allowing Israel to pursue policies that are in direct conflict with the US' official stated position.

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but, its not the first time an incomplete picture is draen (e.g your apartheid statement) and when the full picture is drawn (e.g the reason for this seperation and the facts that Israelis cant go on the "Palestinian" roads either), this specific issue is dropped until next time.

I believe the apartheid label is appropriate. It's a social policy of segregation involving political and economic, legal discrimination between two societies in the West Bank.

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oh please, there is nothing the press loves more than the "underdog" with rocks against tanks. these are no rocks that are flying over the border out of Gaza, its missiles.

O

Generally yes, but here in the US we rarely hear about the settler violence in Hebron, the number of Palestinians who die while waiting to get through a check point on the way to a hospital. We NEVER see what's going on in Gaza. Hell, Israel wouldn't even let Jimmy Carter visit Gaza. I suspect I know why but as is often said here in SC, "if you have nothing to hide then you should have nothing to fear".
We do hear about the missiles that leave Gaza. We DID hear about the Hebron settlers who were recently evicted however we heard nothing about the retaliation against the Palestinian residents (burned homes/murdered father and son, etc.). The IDF has a responsibility to protect ALL of the citizens of the west bank, not just the Israeli citizens.

There you go, you got me started again.

[Darius11 12]

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I dont remember calling you a jew hater. I think i'm pretty factual in what I say. I believe your view of the situation is a bit twisted and biased and I believe Darius' view is (at based) unbased and sometimes fictional.
there is nothing emotional about what I say. with all do respect, I don't know the two of you well enough to get emotional about this.

I don't want to argue, but I will just say this. The US media is the most one-sided media I have ever seen in the free world on this subject. The reason is Israeli policies would not sit well with the American populace like my self who believe in cretin rights. I understand that you state the reason for those violations are security, however I believe if the media did report both sides Israel would lose its support in the United States.
If I seem one sided to you it is because all we ever hear here is the other side.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[falxori 0]

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The US media is the most one-sided media I have ever seen in the free world on this subject.

and I believe that you believe it is so.
I can also tell you that from my side, it looks like the world media is quick to jump on the "civilians got hurt" wagon, forgetting to add that rockets were launched from their back yard or that at the same checkpoints that delay these civilians you also found a LOT of explosives on their way to blow up a bus.

you can clain the media is biased. I say its in the eye of the beholder.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[idrankwhat 0]

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American populace like my self who believe in cretin rights.

I was going to point out the mistake, but on second thought....I think you got it right the first time

[Darius11 12]

i love being dyslexcdfjhgfjhic

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Rstanley0312 0]

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maybe she was a supporter of the French soccer team.

French soccer pisses me off.........

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[kelpdiver 2]

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I dont remember calling you a jew hater.

Indeed, you have not. And I appreciate that. But others who are not nearly as in touch with the situation have. But that's expected and it only bothers me in it's attempt to negate my argument through ad hominem attacks.

I suspect the greater majority of the Bay Area are Israeli haters, but are not (at least not in conscious thought) haters of Jews. They just are so blinded to the faults of the other side that they only see the faults of Israel, with no consideration for the poor options that government has.

This region loves pacifism, even when it fails miserably. And it loves freedom fighters, at least left leaning ones.