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as always, you dont make the difference between Israeli arabs, which are EQUAL BY LAW and have the exact same rights as I do (beside not having to serve in the army) and the palestinians in the west bank and Gaza which are NOT ISRAELI CITIZENS.
Correct, they are residents of their own land, which Israel occupies. Israel is responsible for them according to the Geneva conventions.
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ISRAEL DOES NOT CONTROL GAZA. there is not a single israeli citizen nor soldier (beside the kidnapped one (which is held against all human rights treaties, btw). and still missiles fly out of Gaza TARGETTING CIVILIAN CITIES.
YES, Israel DOES control gaza!!!! To not accept that fact is completely disingenuous.
Quotewhere does it say that Israel HAS to keep the border crossing to Gaza open or supply them with food, fuel and power?
show me one other example in history where one country kept supplying another country while in a state of war with it?
Again, collective punishment is a war crime.
QuoteIsrael is a country with Jews only roads
first of all, its not in Israel, its in the west bank (which was never annexed to israel). and just as they are "jewish" roads, there are "palestinian" roads where jewish israelis are not allowed. the reason is racism, its security.
That's apartheid.
falxori 0
QuoteAnd some of their leaders have also said that they were willing to work something out if Israel would retreat to the '67 border
I'm not talking about "some of their leaders" i'm talking about THE leaders. the prime minister and the head of Hamas in Syria. they are the ones who make the decisions.
just 2 days ago, in a rally in Gaza (around 300,000 people...), Ismail Haniya, Hamas' leader in Gaza, reated that they would never recognise Israel...
QuoteThe terms in 2000 were ridiculously lopsided in favor of Israel.
if i remember correctly it about 96% of the west bank and gaza, and the rest in territory swapping. If you accept the west bank and Gaza as the palestinian state, then its pretty much all of it. if you consider all of Israel as the palestinian state, then you're right, its not.
QuoteThat's collective punishment and it's a war crime according to the Geneva convention.
you keep bringing up the Geneva convention. you should note that it does not apply here.
yes, it states that civilians are not to be targetted and that hitting them should be avoided. but it also clearly states that combatants HAVE to be marked by distinct uniform and that ANY military activity should be well seperated from civilian population. when firing rockets from back yards and shooting from within homes, you cannot get behind the Geneca convention.
and what about the kidnapped israeli soldier? no one knows if he is dead or alive, where he is or what is his status. they won't even let the red cross visit him. i'm sure there is a nice little chapter about POWs in Geneva convention, isnt there?
QuoteYou can't allow the minority fanatical groups to derail the larger goals,
no you shouldnt, and that what Arafat failed to do when he kept them as "plan B" after the Oslo accords. then they become more powerful than his party and now they are the ruling party. this is no longer a minority, this is their government.
Now I leave you and Darius to your lopsided emotional exchanges of half truths.
I'm sorry I got sucked into it again.
Best of luck in the New Year.
[celebratory vice of your choice]
Darius11 12
QuoteNow I leave you and Darius to your lopsided emotional exchanges of half truths.
Hey i am not lopsided, i am trying to balance out the lopsidedness Oh well. No matter what I say all they here is blah blah blah hatread for Jews.
Have a good New Year as well.
QuoteQuoteNow I leave you and Darius to your lopsided emotional exchanges of half truths.
Hey i am not lopsided, i am trying to balance out the lopsidedness Oh well. No matter what I say all they here is blah blah blah hatread for Jews.
Have a good New Year as well.
Sorry, you're right. I was just trying to back out of the emotional exchanges that typically favor hyperbole over balance. I've got similar problems with people insinuating (or outright saying) that I'm a Jew hater simply because I point out the side of the argument that rarely gets any press.
A little over a month to go and maybe we'll see some "change" in the tone of the dialog....or believe it or not....maybe some action.
Cheers!
falxori 0
QuoteSorry, you're right.
ofcourse he is....
QuoteI've got similar problems with people insinuating (or outright saying) that I'm a Jew hater
I dont remember calling you a jew hater. I think i'm pretty factual in what I say. I believe your view of the situation is a bit twisted and biased and I believe Darius' view is (at based) unbased and sometimes fictional.
there is nothing emotional about what I say. with all do respect, I don't know the two of you well enough to get emotional about this.
but, its not the first time an incomplete picture is draen (e.g your apartheid statement) and when the full picture is drawn (e.g the reason for this seperation and the facts that Israelis cant go on the "Palestinian" roads either), this specific issue is dropped until next time.
QuoteI point out the side of the argument that rarely gets any press
oh please, there is nothing the press loves more than the "underdog" with rocks against tanks. these are no rocks that are flying over the border out of Gaza, its missiles.
O
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I dont remember calling you a jew hater.
Indeed, you have not. And I appreciate that. But others who are not nearly as in touch with the situation have. But that's expected and it only bothers me in it's attempt to negate my argument through ad hominem attacks.
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I think i'm pretty factual in what I say. I believe your view of the situation is a bit twisted and biased and I believe Darius' view is (at based) unbased and sometimes fictional.
I'll not comment regarding Darius' arguments but as for my own, they're from the view of an unwilling third party financier of the perpetuation of the conflict. My views mostly stem from my anger after I dug deeper and found that I was being manipulated by my media through deliberate omission of the nature of both sides of the conflict, as well as my anger at my government for allowing Israel to pursue policies that are in direct conflict with the US' official stated position.
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but, its not the first time an incomplete picture is draen (e.g your apartheid statement) and when the full picture is drawn (e.g the reason for this seperation and the facts that Israelis cant go on the "Palestinian" roads either), this specific issue is dropped until next time.
I believe the apartheid label is appropriate. It's a social policy of segregation involving political and economic, legal discrimination between two societies in the West Bank.
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oh please, there is nothing the press loves more than the "underdog" with rocks against tanks. these are no rocks that are flying over the border out of Gaza, its missiles.
O
Generally yes, but here in the US we rarely hear about the settler violence in Hebron, the number of Palestinians who die while waiting to get through a check point on the way to a hospital. We NEVER see what's going on in Gaza. Hell, Israel wouldn't even let Jimmy Carter visit Gaza. I suspect I know why but as is often said here in SC, "if you have nothing to hide then you should have nothing to fear".
We do hear about the missiles that leave Gaza. We DID hear about the Hebron settlers who were recently evicted however we heard nothing about the retaliation against the Palestinian residents (burned homes/murdered father and son, etc.). The IDF has a responsibility to protect ALL of the citizens of the west bank, not just the Israeli citizens.
There you go, you got me started again.
Darius11 12
QuoteI dont remember calling you a jew hater. I think i'm pretty factual in what I say. I believe your view of the situation is a bit twisted and biased and I believe Darius' view is (at based) unbased and sometimes fictional.
there is nothing emotional about what I say. with all do respect, I don't know the two of you well enough to get emotional about this.
I don't want to argue, but I will just say this. The US media is the most one-sided media I have ever seen in the free world on this subject. The reason is Israeli policies would not sit well with the American populace like my self who believe in cretin rights. I understand that you state the reason for those violations are security, however I believe if the media did report both sides Israel would lose its support in the United States.
If I seem one sided to you it is because all we ever hear here is the other side.
falxori 0
QuoteThe US media is the most one-sided media I have ever seen in the free world on this subject.
and I believe that you believe it is so.
I can also tell you that from my side, it looks like the world media is quick to jump on the "civilians got hurt" wagon, forgetting to add that rockets were launched from their back yard or that at the same checkpoints that delay these civilians you also found a LOT of explosives on their way to blow up a bus.
you can clain the media is biased. I say its in the eye of the beholder.
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American populace like my self who believe in cretin rights.
I was going to point out the mistake, but on second thought....I think you got it right the first time
Darius11 12
i love being dyslexcdfjhgfjhic
Quotemaybe she was a supporter of the French soccer team.
French soccer pisses me off.........
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com
QuoteQuote
I dont remember calling you a jew hater.
Indeed, you have not. And I appreciate that. But others who are not nearly as in touch with the situation have. But that's expected and it only bothers me in it's attempt to negate my argument through ad hominem attacks.
I suspect the greater majority of the Bay Area are Israeli haters, but are not (at least not in conscious thought) haters of Jews. They just are so blinded to the faults of the other side that they only see the faults of Israel, with no consideration for the poor options that government has.
This region loves pacifism, even when it fails miserably. And it loves freedom fighters, at least left leaning ones.
One small segment??????
PPPPPPUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHHHLLLLLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZZZEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Get the fucking shovel out.. that is some deep bullshit you are peddlin there.
I would look for how many muslims actually think Israel has a right to exist... it certainly does not look like all that many wish to even consider it....unless its a short term tactical decision that can be broken later.
http://www.pmw.org.il/Denying%20Israel's%20right%20to%20exist.htm
I guess you would be good with that .. huh.
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