Want to Keep the Lights On?

[billvon 2,426]

>This country had better keep fossil fuels going for at least the next 15 years or
>we will end up in the dark.

If you came up with a plan that could eliminate fossil fuel usage for power generation in 15 (heck I'll give you 20) I'd be 100% behind it. The closest I've seen has been the Scientific American 50 year plan for solar.

> The largest solar facility in the world is SEGS and it only makes 354 MW.

Yep. That's a little more than half the size of your average coal fired power plant. On the plus side, there are no emissions, no railroad tracks needed, and you don't need the many square miles to dump ash as you do with a coal power plant.

But solar will not really have to get bigger to be successful. One of the cool things about solar-PV is that it's just as effective on a small scale than on a large scale. So you end up with a more smaller plants spread around sunny areas (i.e. more than half the US.) In many cases you put the solar system on the consumer itself i.e. a house or factory or nearby i.e. as a parking lot cover, road cover or shade structure. Then not only do you eliminate the coal fired power plants, you eliminate ANY separate power plants, new transmission lines, land needed etc.

[marks2065 0]

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>what does the sorce have to do with Obama's own words?

Both he and McCain have talked about both clean coal and emissions caps. A balanced source would point that out. (Of course, that would fail to make people angry or afraid, and at this point anger and fear is all they have left.)

if you saw the whole show you would have seen the other side of the story. they did cover a little on McCain's side. what pisses me off is that something like this was left out of the news. we need to know this stuff. people that agree with either candidate need to know this stuff. our economy needs to be stimulated not overburdened with skyrocketing energy costs. what good would Obama's tax cuts be if we used all that and then some to pay the electric bill? isn't it dishonest of Obama to omit this in his talks?

[TrophyHusband 0]

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The closest I've seen has been the Scientific American 50 year plan for solar.

it there a similar plan for fusion? you don't hear much about this. is it something that needs more funding, or just someone really smart to come along and figure it out?

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[kallend 1,644]

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The closest I've seen has been the Scientific American 50 year plan for solar.

it there a similar plan for fussion? you don't hear much about this. is it something that needs more funding, or just someone really smart to come along and figure it out?

"Fusion - energy source of the future", 1929.
"Fusion - energy source of the future", 1939
"Fusion - energy source of the future", 1941
"Fusion - energy source of the future", 1947
"Fusion - energy source of the future", 1952
"Fusion - energy source of the future", 1954
"Fusion - energy source of the future", 1958
"Fusion - energy source of the future", 1968
"Fusion - energy source of the future", 1974
"Fusion - energy source of the future", 1976
"Fusion - energy source of the future", 1983
"Fusion - energy source of the future", 1984
"Fusion - energy source of the future", 1994
"Fusion - energy source of the future", 1996
"Fusion - energy source of the future", 1997 (this one actually produced 16MW of power)
"Fusion - energy source of the future", 1998 (highest Q achieved)
"Fusion - energy source of the future", 2001
"Fusion - energy source of the future", 2002
"Fusion - energy source of the future", 2003
"Fusion - energy source of the future", ALWAYS WILL BE!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[TrophyHusband 0]

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["Fusion - energy source of the future", ALWAYS WILL BE!

can you shed some light on that? what's the hurdle or hurdles that need to be overcome?

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[billvon 2,426]

>what pisses me off is that something like this was left out of the news.

It has been in the news constantly.

>we need to know this stuff.

Some of us already do.

>what good would Obama's tax cuts be if we used all that and then some to pay
>the electric bill?

What good are McCain's tax cuts if he shuts down the coal industry and puts all those people out of work?

>isn't it dishonest of Obama to omit this in his talks?

Are you reading what you are posting here? You are complaining that Obama himself said something in his own words, and now you are complaining that he omitted it in his talks!

[kallend 1,644]

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["Fusion - energy source of the future", ALWAYS WILL BE!

can you shed some light on that? what's the hurdle or hurdles that need to be overcome?

100 million degrees is hard to confine.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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http://michellemalkin.com/2008/11/02/audio-obama-will-bankrupt-the-coal-industry/

So, have a listen to this audio

Uh...no.

Okay, listen to this one then, it's on the SF Chronicle, liberal enough for you?? http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/opinionshop/detail?&entry_id=23562

Edit to add: this one here has video: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2008/01/18/MNSNUH7GC.DTL&o=0

Hey better yet, why don't you watch it on Obama's own words on Rachel Maddow's show where he talked about energy, what needs to be done and the threat to our national infrastructure as well.

You stopped at thinking twice, I went so far as to think about it for 10 months and did my research from real sites. Oh ya, look for me tomorrow in the crowd at the official Obama celebration, my tickets should be arriving in the next hour. You have fun believing and spreading fear. As you can tell most of the country is done with that bullshit thankfully.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[marks2065 0]

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>what pisses me off is that something like this was left out of the news.

It has been in the news constantly.

>we need to know this stuff.

Some of us already do.

>what good would Obama's tax cuts be if we used all that and then some to pay
>the electric bill?

What good are McCain's tax cuts if he shuts down the coal industry and puts all those people out of work?

>isn't it dishonest of Obama to omit this in his talks?

Are you reading what you are posting here? You are complaining that Obama himself said something in his own words, and now you are complaining that he omitted it in his talks!

yep i am reading what i am posting. this interview was a while ago i know, but nobody carried it until last night. obama hasn't said anthing about it in the last few months(that i know of). i do watch 4 different news stations and listen to a couple on the radio. this is something that i missed or wasn't covered. i think this is something important and Obama and the news coverage has seemed to let it slide. why hasn't Obama explained this along with his tax cuts?

[billvon 2,426]

>why hasn't Obama explained this along with his tax cuts?

He did. I knew about it. Many people simply weren't paying attention. The media reported on it when it first appeared, then the latest AYERS! WRIGHT! scandal came along. (Hint - ask yourself where the interview came from.)

I am sure that if you had noticed it back then, you would be attacking the media for talking about coal when it could be talking about his associations with terrorists instead. "Why is the liberal media talking about coal and IGNORING the TERRORIST CONNECTIONS of Obama?"

[akarunway 1]

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>This country had better keep fossil fuels going for at least the next 15 years or
>we will end up in the dark.

If you came up with a plan that could eliminate fossil fuel usage for power generation in 15 (heck I'll give you 20) I'd be 100% behind it. The closest I've seen has been the Scientific American 50 year plan for solar.

> The largest solar facility in the world is SEGS and it only makes 354 MW.

Yep. That's a little more than half the size of your average coal fired power plant. On the plus side, there are no emissions, no railroad tracks needed, and you don't need the many square miles to dump ash as you do with a coal power plant.

But solar will not really have to get bigger to be successful. One of the cool things about solar-PV is that it's just as effective on a small scale than on a large scale. So you end up with a more smaller plants spread around sunny areas (i.e. more than half the US.) In many cases you put the solar system on the consumer itself i.e. a house or factory or nearby i.e. as a parking lot cover, road cover or shade structure. Then not only do you eliminate the coal fired power plants, you eliminate ANY separate power plants, new transmission lines, land needed etc.

New powerhouse we will be starting to build in Victorville, Ca. shortly. 500. MW dual cycle natural gas and 50 or 60 MW solar. First of it's kind in the country. 240 acres just for the solar. Lot of land just for 50 MW.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[MikeForsythe 0]

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First of it's kind in the country

Not really. The first hybrid combined cycle/solar is already half built. The 1,200MW combined cycle unit is up and online and the 75MW solar is under construction with a March 2009 completion date.

As to Bill's response, solar PV will never replace units anytime soon as the grid is not set up for it and it is weather/sun dependant. Other than remote homes and small grid ties the impact is insignificant. The best hope is hydro and nuclear. There is presently a project being tested to use the Gulf Stream for hydro power. If successful it could provide 40% of the nations power requirements.

As for dependence on oil, it only accounts for 9% of our fuel requirements here in Florida. Also we don't have any coal plants in our system so the railroad tracks and ash disposal is not an issue.

Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is!

[headoverheels 291]

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...50 or 60 MW solar. First of it's kind in the country. 240 acres just for the solar. Lot of land just for 50 MW.

To me, it seems that solar makes the most sense when installed locally (rooftop), so that you don't lose half of the energy in distribution.

[billvon 2,426]

>As to Bill's response, solar PV will never replace units anytime soon as
>the grid is not set up for it and it is weather/sun dependant.

The copper is there; the intelligence is not. And intelligence is very cheap nowadays, whereas land, copper and rights-of-way are not.

Solar is indeed weather and sun dependent. Fortunately, so are many loads (think A/C.)

[akarunway 1]

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First of it's kind in the country

Not really. The first hybrid combined cycle/solar is already half built. The 1,200MW combined cycle unit is up and online and the 75MW solar is under construction with a March 2009 completion date.

As to Bill's response, solar PV will never replace units anytime soon as the grid is not set up for it and it is weather/sun dependant. Other than remote homes and small grid ties the impact is insignificant. The best hope is hydro and nuclear. There is presently a project being tested to use the Gulf Stream for hydro power. If successful it could provide 40% of the nations power requirements.

As for dependence on oil, it only accounts for 9% of our fuel requirements here in Florida. Also we don't have any coal plants in our system so the railroad tracks and ash disposal is not an issue.

Where is the job and who is the GC if ya know? If so I might come back unless it's a rat job. Knowing Fl. unless in the Miami area it is.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[MikeForsythe 0]

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The copper is there; the intelligence is not. And intelligence is very cheap nowadays, whereas land, copper and rights-of-way are not.

Copper is not used in the grid and changing to an intelligent national grid is incredibly expensive.

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Solar is indeed weather and sun dependent. Fortunately, so are many loads (think A/C.)

Except the highest demand time is not during max solar productivity time. Also, the power plants cannot ramp up and down fast enough to compensate for solar PV/wind fluctuations. We are required to produce capacity demand plus 20% and solar is not part of the calculation. It has to be fossil, nuclear, hydro or geothermal.

Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is!

[akarunway 1]

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First of it's kind in the country

Not really. The first hybrid combined cycle/solar is already half built. The 1,200MW combined cycle unit is up and online and the 75MW solar is under construction with a March 2009 completion date.

As to Bill's response, solar PV will never replace units anytime soon as the grid is not set up for it and it is weather/sun dependant. Other than remote homes and small grid ties the impact is insignificant. The best hope is hydro and nuclear. There is presently a project being tested to use the Gulf Stream for hydro power. If successful it could provide 40% of the nations power requirements.

As for dependence on oil, it only accounts for 9% of our fuel requirements here in Florida. Also we don't have any coal plants in our system so the railroad tracks and ash disposal is not an issue.

I just looked em up. All they're doing is adding a few MW's to 3 exsisting plants. The Cali job IS THE FIRST OF IT'S KIND. Trust me. My bread and butter thru 2010.> http://www.energy.ca.gov/sitingcases/victorville2/index.html

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[MikeForsythe 0]

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Where is the job and who is the GC if ya know? If so I might come back unless it's a rat job. Knowing Fl. unless in the Miami area it is.

It is located at the Martin plant in Indiantown, FL. The contractor is Ausra. We are also building solar units at the cape and Desoto county.

Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is!

[MikeForsythe 0]

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I just looked em up. All they're doing is adding a few MW's to 3 exsisting plants. The Cali job IS THE FIRST OF IT'S KIND. Trust me. My bread and butter thru 2010

Define “First of its kind” I don't need to look it up or trust you as I work for the utility and I am on the team for the project. I am presently writing a reliability matrix for it. The Martin site is the first hybrid/combined cycle in the nation. What Victorville is doing is just a smaller version and a year behind. Also the 75MW is just the first stage. We have 11,700 acres at this site to expand. Victorville’s plant has a capacity of 563MW with 50MW solar. Ours is 1,200MW combined cycle with 75MW thermal solar in stage one so if anyone is adding a “few MW” it would be Victorville.

Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is!

[akarunway 1]

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I just looked em up. All they're doing is adding a few MW's to 3 exsisting plants. The Cali job IS THE FIRST OF IT'S KIND. Trust me. My bread and butter thru 2010

Define “First of its kind” I don't need to look it up or trust you as I work for the utility and I am on the team for the project. I am presently writing a reliability matrix for it. The Martin site is the first hybrid/combined cycle in the nation. What Victorville is doing is just a smaller version and a year behind. Also the 75MW is just the first stage. We have 11,700 acres at this site to expand. Victorville’s plant has a capacity of 563MW with 50MW solar. Ours is 1,200MW combined cycle with 75MW thermal solar in stage one so if anyone is adding a “few MW” it would be Victorville.

Quibbling. It's being built all at once w/ the latest technology. I'm done. Gotta rest up for the Big Obama win tomorrow.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[Jeffwxyz 0]

The politicians that get up on the soapbox and blab about solar and wind being the future of our energy supply is just following the rest of the herd.

What I don't like is that dumb asses like McCain and Obama, don't know squat about Geothermal power plants. If they did, they would drop all of the BS pork barrel spending on Wind and Solar. They should spend some money on funding deep drilling projects to help advance geothermal engineering.

You all should at least read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_power

According to the article, there are 3,979 MW worth of geothermal plants being worked on right now.

and this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_energy_in_the_United_States

With improved deep drilling technology, that 3,979 MW will be a small fraction of the total potential.

Besides the pork barrel aspect, I also think that solar and wind are being promoted because they are glamorous to the avarage person.

[Jeffwxyz 0]

You want to know why fusion has not gone anywhere?

PORK BARREL

Any fusion research that does not follow the Status Quo at the DOE gets shot down. This pretty much means anything outside of a Tokamak. There are a lot of jobs that depend on these "Nuclear Cathedrals".

The recent history of Tokamak plants is a total joke. Look at the ITER that is being built in France. The project is so stretched out in time that many of the people involved in the design and construction will be retired before it starts up. So calling them a "Nuclear Cathedral" is not a stretch.

Then to make it worse, the ITER is not designed to extract any energy from the unit. So it is still another lab project.

The next big Tokamak that they want to build will (maybe) generate some power. They won't start building this for another 20-30 years!

So how about thinking outside the box of Tokamaks?

Look at this:
http://www.emc2fusion.org/

and the presentation video. He is trying to get funding from Google because our government does not want to jepordize the pork barrel at the DOE

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1996321846673788606

I know it is long, but it is convincing and educational

[billvon 2,426]

>What I don't like is that dumb asses like McCain and Obama, don't know
> squat about Geothermal power plants. If they did, they would drop all of
>the BS pork barrel spending on Wind and Solar.

The worldwide potential for geothermal is about 100GW. Here in the US alone we have a peak generation capacity of about 1000GW. So even if we could use all the world's geothermal we'd only realize 10% of our demand.

OTOH, you could power the entire US with a solar array about 100 miles on a side.

>Besides the pork barrel aspect, I also think that solar and wind are
>being promoted because they are glamorous to the avarage person.

I think it's because they work and they are here now. I get 100% of my energy at home from solar.

[billvon 2,426]

>Copper is not used in the grid . . .

Sorry, I was using a euphemism (like saying "laying more asphalt" even though most highways are concrete around here.)

>and changing to an intelligent national grid is incredibly expensive.

Intelligence is the cheapest thing there is nowadays. I'll bet you have dozens of processors in your house, many of whom can control power (like washing machine controllers or UPSes) and many of whom communicate with a local server without you ever knowing it (like your DVR box.)

>Also, the power plants cannot ramp up and down fast enough
>to compensate for solar PV/wind fluctuations.

Ah, but loads can. Our company gets cheaper power because we can shed load during times of high demand.

[idrankwhat 0]

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["Fusion - energy source of the future", ALWAYS WILL BE!

can you shed some light on that? what's the hurdle or hurdles that need to be overcome?

They're working on it in France.
http://www.iter.org/
IMO we should throw more of our efforts at the technology. It would solve many of our energy issues as well as many associated with national security.