NEVER stop fighting back!

[birdlike 0]

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>Knowing that rapists will be violent simply calls for anyone who would
>not be raped to become someone who can fight it off and triumph.

I'm all for preparation. But the fact remains that someone who intends to do someone violence, and is prepared and has a plan for doing so, will be better prepared than someone who is not expecting to be attacked.

I understand, and agree that the aggressor always has the advantage of surprise.

But we're talking about a rape that is in progress. The attack has been initiated, surprise is no longer meangful. He is on top of her, attempting to throttle her as he rapes her. Let's say she has at least one hand free, perhaps both. He is counting on her being docile and submissive out of fear. She should be attempting to count the convolutions of he brain through his eye sockets at the first opportunity.

Yes, sometimes he'll have a knife with which to threaten her, but that should be all the more incentive to fight like a demon. But in the case of an unarmed rape, or he sets the knife down or whatever, I can't see just doing the "lie there" thing and not go for the softest spots on his body and never let up.

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It is easy to sit behind a computer and imagine the damage one could wreak on an attacker, but reality is often quite different.

That's always true, but surely we should be able to expect more of a survival/fight instinct out of people?

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[Lucky... 0]

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The original post, as far as I can tell, doesn't refer to London in the UK, but to some other London (Canada?)

London, Ontario, Canada

Previous charges:

"Jeffrey Woodworth earlier pleaded guilty to having sex with the daughter of his girlfriend. The 44-year-old mother had been living with Woodworth, even though police and county health officials repeatedly warned her Woodworth was a sex offender and was a risk to her children."

http://sexoffenderissues.blogspot.com/2007/05/mother-faces-trial-for-failing-to.html

So he was already a convicted sex offender. Then he raped the daughter of his girlfriend. And now he has tried to rape yet again.

When is the justice system up there going to put this animal behind bars to protect the public?

Seriously.

[vortexring 0]

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Having a mindset to aggressively destroy/remove even a rapists eye is difficult for many. Actually being able to do so effectively isn't so easy as you assume.

I just don't see how a person who is facing death at the hands of a rapist would find harming him difficult. I would think that the circumstances would be a huge push past the blockage that normally would restrain us.

Who said the victims facing death? How would a victim know this?

How many one eyed rapists are there?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[Lindsey 0]

I have so many thoughts about this. On one hand, it's true that women should be able and prepared to defend ourselves. Can't imagine that anyone would disagree with that.

But being violently attacked, even if you know it can happen, can also catch a person off guard. Nobody really EXPECTS it to happen. Then when the realization hits that it IS happening, sometimes violence is so much MORE violent than you'd ever dream would happen.

Being faced with choosing, potentially, between being raped or killed....or knowing that there's nowhere to go and fighting might leave you worse off...or any number of scenarios....might leave a woman choosing not to fight, or maybe not being able to fight in any effective way because she's been beaten up or physically harmed in some other way.

Yeah, women should be able to defend ourselves. BUT I'd hope that if she doesn't, for one reason or another, some of you guys would give her a break and let up on the lectures about what she should have done, or "how could she not have done...."

May seem like a no-brainer in front of your computer screen, but it just may not be that simple.

Peace~
linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[DZJ 0]

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Having a mindset to aggressively destroy/remove even a rapists eye is difficult for many. Actually being able to do so effectively isn't so easy as you assume.

I just don't see how a person who is facing death at the hands of a rapist would find harming him difficult. I would think that the circumstances would be a huge push past the blockage that normally would restrain us.

Interestingly enough I read a memoir not that long ago by an American infantryman who fought through Fallujah. In one instance he found himself fighting hand-to-hand with an insurgent in a darkened room and in the course of the fight starting gouging this insurgent's eyes out. Apparently the physical sensation of digging another person's eyes out, and the apparently horrendous screaming of this man was so sickening he stopped before going through with it.

If a hardened combat infantryman declines to gouge another man's eyes out while engaged in combat, I think the average civvie might well do the same.

[EDIT - House to House by David Bellavia, if anyone was wondering]

[downwardspiral 0]

I too read...

Most recently of the Marines at the Chosin Resevoir during the campaign in Korea. One Marine described looking for a place to eat his chow. He found the corpse of a Chinese soldier frozen in the kneeling position with the top of his head blown off, exposing his brain. Apparently the freezing caused the brain to expand and it was described to look similar to a pot pie. The Marine found it to be the perfect place for him to set his chow and enjoy his meal.

Different generation I guess.



http://www.amazon.com/Breakout-Chosin-Reservoir-Campaign-Korea/dp/0140292594/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1220130407&sr=1-1

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[birdlike 0]

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Having a mindset to aggressively destroy/remove even a rapists eye is difficult for many. Actually being able to do so effectively isn't so easy as you assume.

I just don't see how a person who is facing death at the hands of a rapist would find harming him difficult. I would think that the circumstances would be a huge push past the blockage that normally would restrain us.

Who said the victims facing death? How would a victim know this?

I didn't say that the victim would KNOW she was facing death.

My point is that the law allows such a victim to PRESUME she is facing death, which is precisely why she is entitled to use DEADLY FORCE (and why ANYONE ELSE is entitled to use deadly force) to stop the rape.

I believe (and the law believes) that anyone who presents with a weapon and makes a credible threat with it gives his victim cause to feel she/he is "facing death." The law then allows for killing that person if need be to stop that threat.

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How many one eyed rapists are there?

As I said, not enough.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[birdlike 0]

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Interestingly enough I read a memoir not that long ago by an American infantryman who fought through Fallujah. In one instance he found himself fighting hand-to-hand with an insurgent in a darkened room and in the course of the fight starting gouging this insurgent's eyes out. Apparently the physical sensation of digging another person's eyes out, and the apparently horrendous screaming of this man was so sickening he stopped before going through with it.

If a hardened combat infantryman declines to gouge another man's eyes out while engaged in combat, I think the average civvie might well do the same.

I fully imagine that the screams of such a person would be unearthly. I have not been in this situation, and so yes I am forced to admit that my position is based on conjecture. I certainly would not want to be the guy who starts to gouge the eyes of my deadly adversary only to have him then slash me open with a knife because I took pity on his howls.

I would like to think that I would be willing to cause those screams if I don't cause those screams, I'll be DEAD. I'd rather live with the memory of the screams of a guy who came to kill me than be dead.

Besides, I have a question: did the gouging that he did do result in him being enabled to reach a firearm or a knife with which he then killed the adversary?

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[billvon 2,456]

> The attack has been initiated, surprise is no longer meangful. He is
>on top of her, attempting to throttle her as he rapes her. Let's say she
>has at least one hand free, perhaps both. He is counting on her being
>docile and submissive out of fear.

OK, clearly you think you can put yourself in her place. Let's say that happens.

She goes for his eyes with one hand and manages to get his face. He pulls away, lets go with one hand and hits her so hard it breaks her jaw and dazes her. She's seeing stars from the pain and can't even clearly see him any more; she can barely lift her arms. He puts his hands back around her throat and squeezes. He says "you try that one more time and I will kill you."

Should she try again?

[birdlike 0]

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OK, clearly you think you can put yourself in her place. Let's say that happens.

OK, maybe you missed the part where I said, "I have not been in this situation, and so yes I am forced to admit that my position is based on conjecture." But it's very possible you clicked to reply to the earlier post without having seen the one where I said the preceding.

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She goes for his eyes with one hand and manages to get his face. He pulls away, lets go with one hand and hits her so hard it breaks her jaw and dazes her. She's seeing stars from the pain and can't even clearly see him any more; she can barely lift her arms. He puts his hands back around her throat and squeezes. He says "you try that one more time and I will kill you."

Should she try again?

When the time is right to disable him, absofuckinglutely. What guarantee does she have that a guy who is sooooo law-abiding and peacable that he's already raping and beating her is not planning to kill her?

I feel that at this point, for her it must be treated as a "kill-or-be-killed" scenario. If you do not act to stop your attacker because you presume that he will leave you unharmed, you risk being dead because you were too kindly judging him and his intentions.

I find this to be rather like handing over your wallet and cash and jewelry at an ATM robbery, and getting shot anyway. In the formerly civilized era of robbery, maybe they would have left you alone after you complied with their felonious demands. No longer. Those who comply are just being foolish, trusting the "better nature" of the guy who is robbing them in the first place.

Yes, you won't always have an opportunity to "get the drop on him," which is why situational awareness should be your credo, and you should not ever even allow yourself to be sneaked up on.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[Lindsey 0]

I think the liklihood of being raped and murdered is lower than that of being raped and NOT being murdered. Personally, if I had to be raped, I'd rather not be killed. If I thought my fighting would get me killed too, I'd not fight and get on with my life.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[birdlike 0]

That is, of course, your prerogative (and anyone else's). Can't dictate that people fight off an attacker. And of course, any person who says they would fight would still have the possibility that in an ad hoc judgment they deem fighting back to be riskier than not fighting back.

One other consideration that arises from not fighting back is the idea that if one does not stop one's attacker, that attacker may (because he was not stopped) go on to turn additional people into victims.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[vortexring 0]

Linz, I don't quite understand you, as I was only pointing something out to Birdlike. Here's the original point in case you missed it:


"In an ideal world. What would more likely happen would be for the thumb to displace the eye temporarily whilst the rapist would naturally move his head back and grab the hand/s to remove the thumb from his eye/s.

Still, it at least exposes the trachea for attack.

Having a mindset to aggressively destroy/remove even a rapists eye is difficult for many. Actually being able to do so effectively isn't so easy as you assume."

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[DZJ 0]

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Besides, I have a question: did the gouging that he did do result in him being enabled to reach a firearm or a knife with which he then killed the adversary?

Well, the fight ended with the soldier eventually stabbing this bloke to death (though cutting himself with his own knife several times in the process) but I'd imagine whether the gouging changed the outcome is probably more or less impossible to gauge. (Just had another quick read of the book - probably not).

Regarding your first two paragraphs, I imagine the soldier in question would have thought he would react in the exact same way.

[birdlike 0]

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Besides, I have a question: did the gouging that he did do result in him being enabled to reach a firearm or a knife with which he then killed the adversary?

Well, the fight ended with the soldier eventually stabbing this bloke to death (though cutting himself with his own knife several times in the process) but I'd imagine whether the gouging changed the outcome is probably more or less impossible to gauge. (Just had another quick read of the book - probably not).

I just suspect that if he had kept up his fortitude (whether or not I'd be able to is irrelevant) and completed the eye-gouging, he would not have sustained wounds of his own in the later stabbing.

I'd also be interested in knowing whether it was just a gut reaction to an unearthly scream, coupled with the squicky feeling of eye-goo on the thumbs, that caused him to break off the gouge-attack. Grossness is something that people can, and should, be able to overcome and ignore when a gross job needs to be done.

But if it was some kind of misbegotten compassion for his adversary that caused him to want to cease causing him so much pain... I would remind the guy that when you are fighting to the death, compassion for your fellow humans is not your friend, now is it.

And I hope to god that people don't come on here to start the, "So, birdlikejeffrey, do you think you are so tough that you could have done better," because we're not talking about what I could or could not do, or have or have not done. I also have not been through BCT or AIT.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[hcsvader 1]

Just to update on what is happening with this case. My friend is pursuing this case to the full extent and is going to be testifying in court agianst this guy in the next week. I will keep you posted as the case devolpes.

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[warpedskydiver 0]

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Linz, I don't quite understand you, as I was only pointing something out to Birdlike. Here's the original point in case you missed it:


"In an ideal world. What would more likely happen would be for the thumb to displace the eye temporarily whilst the rapist would naturally move his head back and grab the hand/s to remove the thumb from his eye/s.

Still, it at least exposes the trachea for attack.

Having a mindset to aggressively destroy/remove even a rapists eye is difficult for many. Actually being able to do so effectively isn't so easy as you assume."

Apply palm swiftly to cheek with great force, in a digging/swiping motion remove the eye from it's orbit with the thumb in a violent fashion.

[Lucky... 0]

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Just to update on what is happening with this case. My friend is pursuing this case to the full extent and is going to be testifying in court agianst this guy in the next week. I will keep you posted as the case devolpes.

Did he ever get bail? What are the charges?

[hcsvader 1]

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/04/29/9284611-sun.html

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[warpedskydiver 0]

I guess you don't need me to say what I think should be done.

I hope she never forgets to fight back again will everything she can bring to bear.

I also hope she can go on and live a happy life free of fear.

[steve1 5]

I have two daughters in their twenty's. I while back I bought each of them a short barrelled 38 special. They've grown up with guns, shooting and hunting. They know gun safety. I've spent time with them at the range shooting targets and silhouettes.

I've trained them the best I can in shoot, no shoot scenarios. I want them to get a concealed carry license and further training.

No, this won't stop all assaults, but in many cases you don't have to be a victim.....