Nuclear energy - does it scare you?

[billvon 2,434]

Marg, are you worried about the proliferation issues surrounding fuel reprocessing?

After years arguing about Yucca I'd be just as happy with dry cask storage in the same location, just on concrete pads instead of deep underground.

[Pendejo 0]

The only thing that really scares me about it (nuclear powerplants) is people like the author/s of the paper that this article was written from in the original post, and their impact on how others think. There is a very lax and almost flippant attitude with regard to its safety that appears to be an attempt to instill that it is safer than it really is. Statements like the facility can store the spent rods on site indefinitely, while technically correct, are not really an option. Yes, they can store material at the facility, but the issue is that the facilities are running out of room (hence the supposed need for Yucca).

I do agree that if the wonderful people in Washington DC would remove their collective heads from their asses and see daylight, this is a good option, but that isn’t going to be the case anytime soon (or so it seems anyway). Using the best demonstrated technology (with regard to the waste) we have available it could be done in a much safer way than it is today. Reworking the material is a really good option in my opinion. Sticking it in the ground and hoping that nothing happens is really not the best way to go.

If you look at other similar ways we as a country deal with hazardous waste it will certainly give you reason to shake your head in dismay. Take a close look at the hazardous waste landfills and you will see why people in my line of work call them future superfund sites. This is not to say that some of the material wont need to be stored somewhere, just that we really need to look hard at how we do it, and the long term issues associated with doing so.

If I didn’t know better, I would have to think that the authors of the article were people who have a vested interest in nuclear powerplants being built. To me, this is a really good example of people trying to take the easy way out. It also scares me that people will look at the information and just agree because of where the information came from. A long time ago there were people who were supposedly educated that taught others that the world was flat. Just because that information came from someone who was educated didn’t make it correct then, nor does it make it correct now.

I can go on for pages about it, but thats the readers digest version of why it scares me.

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!

[kelpdiver 2]

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I have a bet with some retired Air Force Colonel who oversees 'shiny metal death'-related things (who's also a PhD nuclear engineer), that the US will completely eliminate our CW stockpile before *any* nuclear fuel is stored in Yucca Mountain.

Marg - what does CW refer to? I have guesses, but the only acronym I got is conventional weapons, and I'm pretty sure it's not that.

I don't see it ever achieving it's intended purpose either. Hopefully we'll find some use for it - perhaps the fruition of Strangelove's mine shaft plan. Let's permamently station some verile 20 year olds down there for a couple years at a time.

[Amazon 7]

Think Chemical weapons that are currently being decommed by the ton.

[nerdgirl 0]

My apologies. Yes, CW = chemical weapons.

The US began destroying our CW stockpile in the late 1980s (per Public Law 99-145). Last December, we reached the 50% destruction milestone. ~15,000 metric tons of chemical agents remain.

At present, 5 CW demilitarization/destruction facilities are operational and are scheduled to complete destruction of >78% of the US stockpile by 2017.

Of the two remaining facilities, the Blue Grass Army Depot in Kentucky – with 523 tons of mustard and VX and sarin nerve agents in rockets and projectiles – is still in the planning/pending litigation/'heartburn' phase, and initial work on construction of the facility at the Pueblo Chemical Depot in Colorado – with 2,611 tons of mustard agent in mortars and artillery shells – began in last month. Some of those munitions are from the 1960s. Even with good inhibitors, chemistry happens. The Army currently plans for the Pueblo facility to begin operations in 2015, and the Blue Grass facility to commence destruction in 2017.

The current official estimate (from Office of the Secretary of Defense) is that the stockpile will be destroyed completely in 2023. I think that’s optimistic.

Btw: Russia has destroyed ~20% of its declared ~42,000 metric ton CW stockpile.

Yeah, prolly more than you wanted to know… c’est la vie.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[kelpdiver 2]

what is left over when you destroy sarin or mustard gas? Is it inert, or is is still somewhat toxic and need to be stored as hazmat?

[nerdgirl 0]

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Marg, are you worried about the proliferation issues surrounding fuel reprocessing?

Concerned, yes. Concerned to the extent that I oppose nuclear energy for those states that are in compliance with IAEA safeguards and have good/stable governance, governments, and institutions, no.


Strongly support the IAEA fuel bank. Both President Bush and Congress support the fuel bank initiative ($50M appropriated in late 2007) following on Warren Buffet/Nuclear Threat Initiative $50M pledge in September 2006. The only other country contributing thus far is Norway ($5M)

(Might I be so forward as to ask that my European friends find a way to fund the remaining $45M, … please.)


Support the Energy Department’s Global Nuclear Energy Partnership (GNEP), which was mentioned in the President’s 2006 State of the Union address.


I’m more concerned about reprocessing Pu from the proliferation of light water reactors (~30 currently under construction plus another intention to build another 30+ has been given to the IAEA) … but that’s a slightly different topic.

For context, the IAEA annual budget is less than the Vienna police, and the verification budget is less than the Manchester United football club. (Source: Tariq Rauf.)


What to do with spent fuel is an issue that isn’t going to go away.
The Canadian model seems to have worked well.

One provocative idea for a Yucca Mountain alternative that I’ve heard (a lil’ tongue in cheek) is to designate Guantanamo as the US spent fuel storage center (after transferring detainees CONUS).


Before the article linked in the thread’s original post, there was Henry Sokolski’s Mat 2007 testimony to the House Committee on Foreign Affairs: “Market-Based Nonproliferation.”


Even though every additional nuclear power plant obviates the need for 6 coal plant, in the long-term nuclear energy will not provide the required energy. Need other alternative energy sources – including fusion – and ultimately need solar.

Today DARPA just released a new BAA (08-48) for “catalysts that will ultimately facilitate the mainstream use of alternative energy sources, including fuel cell chemistry, bio-fuels and solar fuels.” Need that, many-many-many-fold.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[nerdgirl 0]

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what is left over when you destroy sarin or mustard gas? Is it inert, or is is still somewhat toxic and need to be stored as hazmat?

US CW destruction processes are required -- by public law and by the Chemical Weapons Convention, to which the US is a state party -- to destroy chemical agents irreversibly. The resulting materials must not be able to reform agents. Munitions must be destoyed completely as well.

At the end of the destruction process if the agents are being incinerated, there are some partially combusted compounds but nothing of significant quantity.

At the *very* end of the destruction process if the agents are not being incinerated (by the US 'alternative' processes), there's water and some precipitate salts.

There is currently an 'issue' going on with the hydrosylate (intermediate product) from destruction of VX at the Newport, Indiana facility. It's being shipped to Texas, where it will finally neutralized irreversibly.

Btw: mustard "gas" is a misnomer. Sulfur mustard freezes at ~56F, depending on the purity. At ambient pressures, it doesn't become a gas until >200F & actually decomposes first. It has a low but not insignificant vapor pressure.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[nerdgirl 0]

For a pedantic overview of nuclear energy fuel cycle and international reuqirements, the Iranian delegation was kind enough to provide this briefing to the recent Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) Preparatory Conference (PrepCom).
One arms control wonk called it a "bizarre ... tortured pop quiz on nuclear energy."

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[jcd11235 0]

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For a pedantic overview of nuclear energy fuel cycle and international reuqirements, the Iranian delegation was kind enough to provide this briefing to the recent Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) Preparatory Conference (PrepCom).

Is the information in the briefing accurate?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[nerdgirl 0]

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For a pedantic overview of nuclear energy fuel cycle and international reuqirements, the Iranian delegation was kind enough to provide this briefing to the recent Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) Preparatory Conference (PrepCom).

Is the information in the briefing accurate?

The vast majority - yes.

The historical & specific references to international agreements - yes.

There are some narrow, although not unreasonable, interpretations. It also is very specific to information ontained through the IAEA process, as opposed to information and data, including alleged evidence of higher enrichment levels, obtained by western governments.

The answers to the "why" questions are motivational & highly subject to interpretation.

It's somewhat akin to someone trying to get out a speeding ticket by reading everything to the exact 'letter of the law' and the narrowest (or widest, whatever suits) interpretation of the law.

It's also illustrative of how political pressure to make international agreements weak -- & the NPT Additional Protocol is fairly strong -- can backfire. That is, it is illustrative of how important and useful to US foreign policy and interests robust international verification regimes are. The NPT is one of the stronger. The CWC inspection regime is stronger; attempts to add a verification protocol to the Biological Weapons Convention (BWC) collapsed 25 July 2001, when the US delegation, led by Amb John Bolton, unilaterally pulled out of negotiations.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[jcd11235 0]

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Is the information in the briefing accurate?

The vast majority - yes.

The historical & specific references to international agreements - yes.

There are some narrow, although not unreasonable, interpretations. It also is very specific to information ontained through the IAEA process, as opposed to information and data, including alleged evidence of higher enrichment levels, obtained by western governments.

The answers to the "why" questions are motivational & highly subject to interpretation.

It's somewhat akin to someone trying to get out a speeding ticket by reading everything to the exact 'letter of the law' and the narrowest (or widest, whatever suits) interpretation of the law.

[1969912 0]

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I have a bet with some retired Air Force Colonel who oversees 'shiny metal death'-related things (who's also a PhD nuclear engineer), that the US will completely eliminate our CW stockpile before *any* nuclear fuel is stored in Yucca Mountain.

Sounds like a good investment to me.

But... I had similar doubts about WIPP (Waste Isolation Pilot Plant near Carlsbad, NM) ever receiving waste. Glad I never bet on it. Since ~2000 WIPP has accepted and emplaced ~60,000 cu meters of DOE transuranic waste contained in 55 gallon drums. AFAIK the experimental phase of the project has been completed, and the disposal is permanent. Over time the salt will creep due to geo pressure and crush the tunnels and drums making retrieval impossible. The drums typically contain Pu-contaminated items generated during weapons production like valves, instruments, labware, gloves, etc. No bulk PU, spent fuel, or HLW.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG