An Atheist Speaks

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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A true believer would never wish hell on anyone

You've obviously never had any experience with the Baptist church. I grew up listening to how I was going to Hell in eternal damnation for three hours every Sunday.

I dont think that they told you that you were going to hell, they cannot make that judgement, what they told you was that if you dont live by the truth, repent and become born again, that you are already subjecting yourself to hell in your heart. We have an interesting concept of hell, but if Jesus says that heaven is in the heart, then hell must be as well. Do you agree that there is a dying worse than death? then there must be a life better than living? The line between the two is truth, and truth told us that we are all evil, even the worst of sinners, and that we all need to repent, or we will perish. Why is having a fear of Hell such a bad thing? It is not easy for true Chrisians to talk to people about hell, but Jesus spoke about it alot, so we have no choice. And most certainly I agree with Tankbuster, No Christian would WISH hell on anyone. If we learned anything about life it is that truth has a lighter burden, but it still has a burden.

Ever been to prison? Go talk to some inmates who have been in there 20 years, doing time for something they did when they were kids. If you had the chance to possibly save this man, even though he would do what he wants anyway, would you say anything? Telling people about hell is about compassion, I am sorry if thier intent to show the love of God was overshadowed by their intent to breed fear. Fear alone is just fear and the fruit of those who live that way is obvious, but fear which finds hope and love, finds the love of God. For example, what good is it for me to do something good for someone just so that I dont go to hell? What have I gained? But, if I do something good for someone out of love, then I have gained love, becasue it truly is better to give than to recieve. Fear God, but live in his grace and truth as a beleiver, in my heart I cant give you better advice. Just talk to him with all the truth in your heart, your evil, your weaknesses, your faults...do you not think he knows them already? Yet he shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.


Fear is good, but love is the goal. God loves those who love him. As I said earlier, fear is meant to humble us so that we might recieve the love that is given beyond our own ego and pride. There is love given in humbleness and remorse my friend. If you are guilty of something but deeply remorseful, say something you did to someone you love here on earth, the love you recieve when they forgive you is great and will keep you on the right track

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Actually, I did grow up in a Baptist church, and heard my share of fire and brimstone. But, I don't think that the pastors wanted you or I to go to hell, nor took pleasure in the thought, as the athiest in the video seems to think some Christians wish upon him. I know many Christians (I am one) who turned away from God because our early exposure to Christianity was not that of truth and love. There are a lot of misguided teachers out there, and there are many very gifted ones.

I could not have said it better. you have a magnificent heart, I only wish I would have read your response before I sent mine. Really sorry brother. Truth and love is missing in many churches, it is amazing to me that truth just seems to flow once we see how evil we really are isnt it?

"We didn't start the fire"

[br0k3n 0]

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If you want SILLY, I contend that believing in and worshipping an invisible supernatural being without a shred of supporting evidence trumps everything else.

... said the blind leading the blind.

"without a shred of supporting evidence"? That's hyperbole. Some of the best evidence is in logic. If the universe suddenly came into being with NOTHING having existed, matter-wise, what would you say caused its existence?

If we bring logic into the equation then you can kiss your silly skygod good bye... but to entertain you for a moment, we dont know that the universe "suddenly" came into being with NOTHING having existed before. The Universe might have always been there.

In the same way when believers are asked who created the creator, the common belief is that the creator was always there, so using the same LOGIC then we can say that the universe might have always been there....

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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If you want SILLY, I contend that believing in and worshipping an invisible supernatural being without a shred of supporting evidence trumps everything else.

... said the blind leading the blind.

"without a shred of supporting evidence"? That's hyperbole. Some of the best evidence is in logic. If the universe suddenly came into being with NOTHING having existed, matter-wise, what would you say caused its existence?

If we bring logic into the equation then you can kiss your silly skygod good bye... but to entertain you for a moment, we dont know that the universe "suddenly" came into being with NOTHING having existed before. The Universe might have always been there.

In the same way when believers are asked who created the creator, the common belief is that the creator was always there, so using the same LOGIC then we can say that the universe might have always been there....

Wow! Im sorry, I dont really understand?? But that doesnt suprise me. Im really not that good at logic, but I know that there are minds in this world that just get it. For me, I ask, in our limited concept of the invisible, the likes of which we pull from only what is seen or percieved by the imagination, how do those who believe in a creator lose what seems to me to be a simpler logic? Meaning, how can a creator (again with our limited concept) be created?

Jesus told us that God is spirit and that he is invisible, is it so hard to believe that this spirit carries the wisdom of the balance of the universe? Wisdom itself being invisible and only manifesting to us in what is seen and what is imagined? I hope this isnt too confusing, but simpler I guess is even though we can prove wisdom, there is nothing that leads me to believe it wasnt there at the beginning our what we percieve to be creation. Is there with you?

"We didn't start the fire"

[beowulf 1]

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Im really not that good at logic

Now there is an understatement!

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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If you want SILLY, I contend that believing in and worshipping an invisible supernatural being without a shred of supporting evidence trumps everything else.

... said the blind leading the blind.

"without a shred of supporting evidence"? That's hyperbole. Some of the best evidence is in logic. If the universe suddenly came into being with NOTHING having existed, matter-wise, what would you say caused its existence?

If we bring logic into the equation then you can kiss your silly skygod good bye... but to entertain you for a moment, we dont know that the universe "suddenly" came into being with NOTHING having existed before. The Universe might have always been there.

In the same way when believers are asked who created the creator, the common belief is that the creator was always there, so using the same LOGIC then we can say that the universe might have always been there....

Wow! Im sorry, I dont really understand?? But that doesnt suprise me. Im really not that good at logic, but I know that there are minds in this world that just get it. For me, I ask, in our limited concept of the invisible, the likes of which we pull from only what is seen or percieved by the imagination, how do those who believe in a creator lose what seems to me to be a simpler logic? Meaning, how can a creator (again with our limited concept) be created?

Jesus told us that God is spirit and that he is invisible, is it so hard to believe that this spirit carries the wisdom of the balance of the universe? Wisdom itself being invisible and only manifesting to us in what is seen and what is imagined? I hope this isnt too confusing, but simpler I guess is even though we can prove wisdom, there is nothing that leads me to believe it wasnt there at the beginning our what we percieve to be creation. Is there with you?

I SEE NOW, YOUR SAYING THAT THE UNIVERSE WAS ALWAYS THERE, OR AT LEAST ENTERTAINING THE POSSIBLITY, RIGHT? I CANT SPEAK FOR ALL CHRISTIANS, BUT I BELIEVE THE UNIVERSE MAY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THERE AS WELL, LIKE A STRAIN FOR ETERNITY OR SOMETHING, BUT AGAIN, IT DOESNT MEAN THAT WISDOM WAS NOT THERE AS WELL DOES IT?

A couple of posts ago i said that it is not entirely too impossible to believe that there is time operating in another dimension in space...You should read that post, if you havent already. What I like about scientists is their imagination and thier pursuit of limiltless possibilities, I just dont like scientists who completely deny even the possiblity of the existance of God and use fancy terms that only educated people can understand to "prove" to others what has not been proven. In essence dont tell me that faith is not an answer at all, but that what ever evidence your theory leads you to is. If they themselves dont want to believe in God, that is totally ok, its when they prey on the minds of the less educated and rob any shred, of the faith, hope, and love that is recived from an eternal front. Because as I said earlier, even if science does go on to prove what it seeks, love and forgiveness will still be needed on the earth, or deception will prevail. Since I believe that the wisdom in the balance will not let evil prevail (i believe it was defeated on the cross) or become greater than good, there will always be a need for those who desire to live radically in love, even loving those who hate them most.

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Im really not that good at logic

Now there is an understatement!

Whats up Beowulf!

"We didn't start the fire"

[beowulf 1]

Not much. Just working on a laptop.

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Not much. Just working on a laptop.

What do you build/fix them or something?? I know this is totally off subject, but do you like macs or pc's better? Lame question I know, but I am actually curious especially if your a computer guy.

"We didn't start the fire"

[kallend 1,647]

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Ok, I see that no matter what I say, you at least are going to argue against everything, so that means reason is lost on you. It seems you would rather be right than speak the truth from your heart, which is ok, like I said, man in nature in not good.

IRONY SCORE 10/10. Reason and logic have nothing whatsoever to do with religion. Your belief in invisible friends without any evidence at all defies all reason.

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Consider just for a moment that God is real and that there is a judgement after this life and even during this life.

Oh, so now we have to assume that you are right in order to understand your argument. I can play that game too:

To prove that 3 = 2:
Assume 2 = 3
Therefore 3 = 2
But if 3 = 2
then 2 = 3
which validates the original assumption.

QED

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[br0k3n 0]

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I SEE NOW, YOUR SAYING THAT THE UNIVERSE WAS ALWAYS THERE, OR AT LEAST ENTERTAINING THE POSSIBLITY, RIGHT? I CANT SPEAK FOR ALL CHRISTIANS, BUT I BELIEVE THE UNIVERSE MAY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THERE AS WELL, LIKE A STRAIN FOR ETERNITY OR SOMETHING, BUT AGAIN, IT DOESNT MEAN THAT WISDOM WAS NOT THERE AS WELL DOES IT?

A couple of posts ago i said that it is not entirely too impossible to believe that there is time operating in another dimension in space...You should read that post, if you havent already. What I like about scientists is their imagination and thier pursuit of limiltless possibilities, I just dont like scientists who completely deny even the possiblity of the existance of God and use fancy terms that only educated people can understand to "prove" to others what has not been proven. In essence dont tell me that faith is not an answer at all, but that what ever evidence your theory leads you to is. If they themselves dont want to believe in God, that is totally ok, its when they prey on the minds of the less educated and rob any shred, of the faith, hope, and love that is recived from an eternal front. Because as I said earlier, even if science does go on to prove what it seeks, love and forgiveness will still be needed on the earth, or deception will prevail. Since I believe that the wisdom in the balance will not let evil prevail (i believe it was defeated on the cross) or become greater than good, there will always be a need for those who desire to live radically in love, even loving those who hate them most.

i have read your post a few times now and still not quite sure what your trying to say..

Anyway lets make this simple, im afraid you can believe in whatever but the plain and simple fact is that at the end of the day there is still to this day not 1 piece of evidence to show that the historical figure of Jesus existed, not one... the bible is written by authors unknown many years after his claimed life. No other historical text from authors of the time mention him..

We know adam and eve never existed so that makes a mockery of the concept of original sin, which is the basis for jesus death on the cross, so in turn makes a mockery of Christianity..

I appreciate there are many marvels of the universe that you/we dont understand but attributing them to some creator or sky god doesnt make them real..

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[rynodigsmusic 0]

IRONY SCORE 10/10. Reason and logic have nothing whatsoever to do with religion. Your belief in invisible friends without asny evidence defies all reason.


That is a very interesting formula the 3=2 thing. Where did you learn that?

BUt to continue...Is it reasonable to deny that Hope feels good? Is it reasonable to deny that Love feels good? Is it reasonable to say that faith, (which is only proven in those who have it) is unreasonable but theory is not? How did theory get so much power all the sudden? And what if theory convinces you to hate others for no reason, is it reasonable to hate who ever you like and to possibly want to kill them just because you feel like it? Faith does not defy reason my freind, it exists to give people the lives that deep down they really want. Is it not reasonable to exhaust all avenues that lead to a better, more fulfilling life? We have all felt love, hope, and faith in some measure, but not all of us have found these things in God, who is eternal. Just try to imagine for a second the great beauty of knowing that God is not only real, but that he loves us dearly and wants us to find life in him, which is life in all goodness and truth.

Who do you have in your life that you can be 100% honest and truthful with, who will love you no matter how much you screw up, whos very pleasure is to give you joy, compassion, and Love, who understands you better than you understand yourself, who doesnt feed your shame with guilt, but comforts your weakness with understanding? Ultimatley this is what we all seek, but never find. Faith finds this. So again, I ask humbly, is it not reasonable to at least want to believe in something so great?

"We didn't start the fire"

[beowulf 1]

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Not much. Just working on a laptop.

What do you build/fix them or something?? I know this is totally off subject, but do you like macs or pc's better? Lame question I know, but I am actually curious especially if your a computer guy.

Part of my job at times is fixing computers. My current title is Network Administrator. Right now I mostly do programming.

I have very little experience on Macs and really don't have much interest in them. Most companies are PC based.
Once I am at home I don't spend much time on the computer any more. Work kinda burns me out anymore.

[rynodigsmusic 0]

i have read your post a few times now and still not quite sure what your trying to say..

Anyway lets make this simple, im afraid you can believe in whatever but the plain and simple fact is that at the end of the day there is still to this day not 1 piece of evidence to show that the historical figure of Jesus existed, not one... the bible is written by authors unknown many years after his claimed life. No other historical text from authors of the time mention him..
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Im sorry my post wasnt understandable, but in the midst of trying to explain myself words sometimes get in the way. But in response to your reply i can only say that now we are on the dividing line of those who have faith and those who do not. I have already said that the "evidence" in those who have faith is found in thier testimony, the one you cant hear becasue faith is not found outside of your own heart. It is not something that you can buy, go to school for, or earn. It is a gift, and it is given by truth, no one with faith has found it genuine without repentance. Unless you feel you have something to repent from, you will never find truth within yourself, therefore you will never find faith.

Even if you saw the sun fall into the ocean, or the stars fall from the sky, it is impossible for you to believe, because in your heart of hearts you truly dont believe in even the possibiltiy of God, therefore you dont live by truth. Do you really think that Jesus was wanting everyone to see him? If that is the case why didnt God send him in this century, where he could do some miracles on CNN or something? We believe in the spirit he died for and it is that faith, that belief that brings us the love our hearts were seeking, the endless love of an endless God. It is the love which inspires us and the Fact that whether your evidence leads to the proof of his walking or not, that the Gospel that we have says that he Died for God, so that we might believe in God and Gods love, and so that we might Fear God and learn to love one another deeply from the heart. Is it not factual to say that the Gospel says this?

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We know adam and eve never existed so that makes a mockery of the concept of original sin, which is the basis for jesus death on the cross, so in turn makes a mockery of Christianity..

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Again, sin casues guilt whether you believe it or not. Guilt falls on the conscinece and is either immediately forgiven by the love of someone else, or it is hidden deep within, in places of secret in our hearts, not wanting to be revealed because it never wants to be acknowledged as evil. Jesus was the guilt offering, thats in the bible (Isaiah 800yrs before the birth of Christ) If you believe you are sinless, then you are a man without guilt, or so you think anyway. Truth should expose your guilt, if you live by the truth, if not, your guilt will surely remain. I say this as humbly as I can.

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I appreciate there are many marvels of the universe that you/we dont understand but attributing them to some creator or sky god doesnt make them real..

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God is spirit, you are a reasonable person, yet it is not reasonable to believe in spirit? Have you never been inspired by anything before? So that inspiration which fuels your thoughts and motivates you through feeling, in your mind, just simply doest exist?

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

People search for truth from all over, they need evidence and proof. But if you search from your heart, you will find love and if you find love, you will find power. After that, you dont need proof anymore, the power is all you need.

Do you need proof that you love your children? Do you need proof that you love anything? So, does love need proof or is it just that powerful? Can proof explain the love you carry or your willingness to give your life for someone you love? Or a better question, would proof keep you from loving someone you love, if it was evident or factual that they do not love you? Meditate just for a brief moment on the power and influence of love in our lives...If I was going to believe in anything that was invisible, if it didnt have the power of love in it, I would not have believed at all. Because for those who have found faith, LOVE IS MORE POWERFUL THAN DISBELIEF.

But, I still would like an answer to whether or not love needs proof to be real. Isnt what proves love something that is also invisible and found from within? TRUST? And isnt fear something that is overcome by trust? When you ask someone to marry you, you have to go through a world of fears to rest on trust right? But you do it because love is more powerful than even fear. Is it such a bad thing to believe that God made everything to serve the purpose of good, and that all those who live according to this purpose will live in the power behind it? I speak from my heart, I am not good, but I live in the power of love, and isnt a quality of love a desire to share, teach, and prosper both the giver and the reciever? I am simply sharing with you all, and so far you havent crushed me in a hail of rage, and anger, for that I say thank you. Deeply thank you.

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Not much. Just working on a laptop.

What do you build/fix them or something?? I know this is totally off subject, but do you like macs or pc's better? Lame question I know, but I am actually curious especially if your a computer guy.

Part of my job at times is fixing computers. My current title is Network Administrator. Right now I mostly do programming.


Yeah, work kinda burns me out too! Right now I am at 60 hrs a week. Isnt funny how inconvenient work is...at least for me anyway, it sounds like at least you are doing something that you enjoy and interests you??

I have very little experience on Macs and really don't have much interest in them. Most companies are PC based.
Once I am at home I don't spend much time on the computer any more. Work kinda burns me out anymore.

"We didn't start the fire"

[rhys 0]

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The statement "I weigh 65 kilograms" is scientifically verifiable.

The statement "I love my daughter" is not.

Science and common sense for that matter can easily disprove some of the idiotic, naive, selfish, greedy, unplausable, fucked up scenarios and fables the bible throws at us all.

if you truly believe that this world, solar system, galaxy, universe.... has been created specifically for human beings to use....

...then you are a stupid idiot.

Science can prove that.

Science 'can' also prove that you love your daughter.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[jcd11235 0]

Why are you SHOUTING?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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The statement "I weigh 65 kilograms" is scientifically verifiable.

The statement "I love my daughter" is not.

Science and common sense for that matter can easily disprove some of the idiotic, naive, selfish, greedy, unplausable, fucked up scenarios and fables the bible throws at us all.

if you truly believe that this world, solar system, galaxy, universe.... has been created specifically for human beings to use....

...then you are a stupid idiot.

Science can prove that.

PLEASE GO BACK AND READ ALL OTHER POSTS BEFORE COMING IN AND SAYING WHAT HAS BEEN SAID BY OTHERS IF YOU EXPECT AN ENGAGEMENT WORTHY ENOUGH TO AT LEAST SUSTAIN YOUR IMAGINATION. WHAT YOU HAVE SAID SEEMS EMPTY TO ME. I DONT NEED SCIENCE TO TELL ME I AM A STUPID IDIOT, I AM TOLD THAT ENOUGH BY PEOPLE LIKE YOU!!

Science 'can' also prove that you love your daughter.

Carry a little bitterness do ya? Im sorry but I just dont believe that science can tell me whether or not I love someone. You realize that a statement like goes against rational thought right? You have manged to take most of the great artwork throughout the history of time, and reduce one of the most indescribable and powerful feelings known to us to a simple proof (that you cant prove by the way) that you might just go ahead, define, put in the table of contents, and whala, presto, here is some love for you. You should have a commercial, or a 1-1800 number promising love to all those in need. I am amazed that someone looking for proof and evidence would say something like this...can someone please help me here? We may not believe the same things, but come on, where do we even attempt to agree with one another? Im sorry friend if I got a little sarcastic, but please please think carefuly about what you say to people. Your words have more power than you think amongst the more easily influenced.

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Why are you SHOUTING?

Sorry, I didnt realize I was! You must have some good hearing

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

Thanks for the link. He says it much more eloquently than I've been able to.

[jcd11235 0]

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Why are you SHOUTING?

Sorry, I didnt realize I was! You must have some good hearing

ALL CAPS equals SHOUTING!

It considered impolite in internet forums (unless your intent is to come across as shouting), just so you're aware.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Why are you SHOUTING?

Sorry, I didnt realize I was! You must have some good hearing

ALL CAPS equals SHOUTING!

It considered impolite in internet forums (unless your intent is to come across as shouting), just so you're aware.

That makes perfect sense. So sincerely, thank you I really didnt mean to be impolite, sorry about that.

"We didn't start the fire"

[Mockingbird 0]

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If you want SILLY, I contend that believing in and worshipping an invisible supernatural being without a shred of supporting evidence trumps everything else.

... said the blind leading the blind.

"without a shred of supporting evidence"? That's hyperbole. Some of the best evidence is in logic. If the universe suddenly came into being with NOTHING having existed, matter-wise, what would you say caused its existence?

If we bring logic into the equation then you can kiss your silly skygod good bye... but to entertain you for a moment, we dont know that the universe "suddenly" came into being with NOTHING having existed before. The Universe might have always been there.

In the same way when believers are asked who created the creator, the common belief is that the creator was always there, so using the same LOGIC then we can say that the universe might have always been there....

You guys are so funny--- you refer to the Big Bang only when it suits your argument at the time. If it doesn't, then you say the universe may NOT have suddenly come into being, that maybe it is eternal. Well, if that were the case, we wouldn't be here because the universe would've petered out by now... The universe shows that it has aged. You can't have it both ways. The only presupposition I need to bring into the argument is that logic and science say that anything that came into being has a cause. I don't even have to believe in God to realize the truth of that statement. Since the universe had a beginning, something had to cause it to come into being.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[jcd11235 0]

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dYou guys are so funny--- you refer to the Big Bang only when it suits your argument at the time. If it doesn't, then you say the universe may NOT have suddenly come into being, that maybe it is eternal. Well, if that were the case, we wouldn't be here because the universe would've petered out by now... The universe shows that it has aged. You can't have it both ways. The only presupposition I need to bring into the argument is that logic and science say that anything that came into being has a cause. I don't even have to believe in God to realize the truth of that statement. Since the universe had a beginning, something had to cause it to come into being.

The Big Bang theory simply tells us that the universe expanded from a singularity. It does not tell us anything about how that singularity came to be. It could be but a single stage in an eternal cycle; we simply do not know. In other words, the universe as we know it had a beginning, but thus far, we know of no way of extracting the necessary information about the origins of the singularity. Heck, we still don't understand the first 10^(-57) seconds after the Big Bang. That doesn't mean that we should attribute the universe to a deity. Science is not so insecure as to not be able to acknowledge that it doesn't know the answer.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!