My Recent Fox News and CNN Appearances (Guns on College Campuses)

[vortexring 0]

So what is your argument then - a select few well trained students being armed? Or just the option of CCW being available?

Either way, will it solve the problem?

Will it solve the problem?

It's the solution I'd rather debate. It's a solution which is important. Student CCW means fuck all. It won't stop mentalist students brassing up their classmates.

It fucking won't.

Hyperbole?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[Nightingale 0]

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It's the solution I'd rather debate. It's a solution which is important. Student CCW means fuck all. It won't stop mentalist students brassing up their classmates.

It fucking won't.

Student and professor CCW just might limit a psycho's rampage to a few rather than 32. I wonder how many lives were saved by the woman with the CCW in the church in Colorado?

[vortexring 0]

Yes it might. But will it stop or even deter psycho students with a desire to kill their student mates?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[Nightingale 0]

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Yes it might. But will it stop or even deter psycho students with a desire to kill their student mates?

Maybe, maybe not, but it could mitigate the damage if it doesn't deter. We won't know about the deterrence effect unless we try. What we do know is that people who jump through all the hoops to get a CCW/CHL are highly unlikely to commit a crime, so the risk of allowing CCW is very low, especially since most students are underage and cannot get a CCW. The staff and faculty are probably more likely to arm themselves.

[kallend 1,647]

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COMMON SENSE.

Shall I explain it to you mate? I never suspected you were lacking any but.....

It may seem like common sense to you, but it has yet to happen, despite being predicted every time a state opened up the CCW laws. No rash of shootouts, no rash of criminals taking advantage of the laws (they were carrying already anyway)

It's rather obviously false. People don't go around looking to start gun fights. In the movies, one shot and the target flies 20 feet and dies instantly (unless it is the protagonist). In the real world, gun fights are highly dangerous and no sane informed person will opt for one when they don't have to.

Now, are the seniors and grad schools (those over 21 and eligible to buy handguns) more reckless and out of control than the general population? I doubt it.

In a typical year there are about 8,000 violent crimes committed on college campuses in the US. Almost all of them are student on student crimes and a very large number are alcohol related. Also in a typical year, fewer than 20 of these crimes are homicides.**

Although "Animal House" is a work of fiction, the fact remains that large concentrations of college age people are NOT behaviorally comparable to the population at large.

** edited to add. About 1 in 400 campus violent crimes are homicides. For the US as a whole where guns are more readily available than on college campuses, it's about 1 in 90, with guns as the preferred weapon.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Nightingale 0]

The majority of college age people are not eligible to purchase or carry a handgun.

[Lefty 0]

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So what is your argument then - a select few well trained students being armed? Or just the option of CCW being available?

I refer you back to Douva's video for the answers to those questions.

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It's the solution I'd rather debate. It's a solution which is important.

Indeed? Well, you run along and figure out the way to eliminate crime itself. I'm going skiing right now.

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Hyperbole?

Exaggeration, in other words.

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[kallend 1,647]

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The majority of college age people are not eligible to purchase or carry a handgun.

Maybe that's why the fraction of campus violent crimes that become homicides is 4 times LESS than in the population at large.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[vortexring 0]

I could spend a bit of time here Kris arguing with you, but we did a couple of months ago, on the same subject.

It started to get a bit complicated, not so much with yourself, but with other posters and with exactly what we meant.

So I'll keep it simple, as I've already mentioned what I feel over this.

Your argument can only make an already bad situation become worse.

There's too much theory involved for your side and mine, without any studying of the fundamental problem and its solutions. Sadly.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[vortexring 0]

Skiing? Have fun.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[rushmc 18]

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Yes it might. But will it stop or even deter psycho students with a desire to kill their student mates?

Deter? no. Stop them? It does have that potential would you not agree?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

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Yes it might. But will it stop or even deter psycho students with a desire to kill their student mates?

Maybe, maybe not, but it could mitigate the damage if it doesn't deter. We won't know about the deterrence effect unless we try. What we do know is that people who jump through all the hoops to get a CCW/CHL are highly unlikely to commit a crime, so the risk of allowing CCW is very low, especially since most students are underage and cannot get a CCW. The staff and faculty are probably more likely to arm themselves.

It is a proven fact that CCW applicants are the most law abiding. That is a stat worth taking note of.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,647]

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Yes it might. But will it stop or even deter psycho students with a desire to kill their student mates?

Maybe, maybe not, but it could mitigate the damage if it doesn't deter. We won't know about the deterrence effect unless we try. What we do know is that people who jump through all the hoops to get a CCW/CHL are highly unlikely to commit a crime, so the risk of allowing CCW is very low, especially since most students are underage and cannot get a CCW. The staff and faculty are probably more likely to arm themselves.

It is a proven fact that CCW applicants are the most law abiding. That is a stat worth taking note of.

WHo keeps stats on CCW applicants? We do have stats that approved CCW recipients are more law abiding, because the criminals and loonies have been filtered out by the screening.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kelpdiver 2]

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WHo keeps stats on CCW applicants? We do have stats that approved CCW recipients are more law abiding, because the criminals and loonies have been filtered out by the screening.

All states keep stats on applicants at the point of application - they reject those that don't qualify. Logically you'd expect few ineligibles to apply in the first place, many of the rejects are technical issues rather than criminal records.

And the screening out of the criminals and loonies (not sure how effective the second part is) is the point. Allowing CCW on campus is going to put guns in the hands of those least likely to do ill with them, giving the campus the maximum benefit with the minimum downside.

[rushmc 18]

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Yes it might. But will it stop or even deter psycho students with a desire to kill their student mates?

Maybe, maybe not, but it could mitigate the damage if it doesn't deter. We won't know about the deterrence effect unless we try. What we do know is that people who jump through all the hoops to get a CCW/CHL are highly unlikely to commit a crime, so the risk of allowing CCW is very low, especially since most students are underage and cannot get a CCW. The staff and faculty are probably more likely to arm themselves.

It is a proven fact that CCW applicants are the most law abiding. That is a stat worth taking note of.

WHo keeps stats on CCW applicants? We do have stats that approved CCW recipients are more law abiding, because the criminals and loonies have been filtered out by the screening.

... you said loonies....... a class you understand.....

Oh, and those stats ARE out there. But is a sure thing you do not care

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kelpdiver 2]

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In a typical year there are about 8,000 violent crimes committed on college campuses in the US. Almost all of them are student on student crimes and a very large number are alcohol related. Also in a typical year, fewer than 20 of these crimes are homicides.**

I'm sorry, what is the argument you wish to make with this? That there is a lot of crime on campus, therefore students can't be trusted? Or that there is so little crime, that there is no need to allow CCW?

If 8000 was supposed to sound like an impressive number, it's not. With 17.5M college students, that would be an incident rate of less than 1 in 2000.

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** edited to add. About 1 in 400 campus violent crimes are homicides. For the US as a whole where guns are more readily available than on college campuses, it's about 1 in 90, with guns as the preferred weapon.

Confirmed by this. College students do not show a tendency towards drunken shootings.

[kallend 1,647]

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Yes it might. But will it stop or even deter psycho students with a desire to kill their student mates?

Maybe, maybe not, but it could mitigate the damage if it doesn't deter. We won't know about the deterrence effect unless we try. What we do know is that people who jump through all the hoops to get a CCW/CHL are highly unlikely to commit a crime, so the risk of allowing CCW is very low, especially since most students are underage and cannot get a CCW. The staff and faculty are probably more likely to arm themselves.

It is a proven fact that CCW applicants are the most law abiding. That is a stat worth taking note of.

WHo keeps stats on CCW applicants? We do have stats that approved CCW recipients are more law abiding, because the criminals and loonies have been filtered out by the screening.

... you said loonies....... a class you understand.....

Oh, and those stats ARE out there. But is a sure thing you do not care

Actually I do care. Please provide stats (and your source) on CCW Applicant crime rates. Thank you in advance.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

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Yes it might. But will it stop or even deter psycho students with a desire to kill their student mates?

Maybe, maybe not, but it could mitigate the damage if it doesn't deter. We won't know about the deterrence effect unless we try. What we do know is that people who jump through all the hoops to get a CCW/CHL are highly unlikely to commit a crime, so the risk of allowing CCW is very low, especially since most students are underage and cannot get a CCW. The staff and faculty are probably more likely to arm themselves.

It is a proven fact that CCW applicants are the most law abiding. That is a stat worth taking note of.

WHo keeps stats on CCW applicants? We do have stats that approved CCW recipients are more law abiding, because the criminals and loonies have been filtered out by the screening.

... you said loonies....... a class you understand.....

Oh, and those stats ARE out there. But is a sure thing you do not care

Actually I do care. Please provide stats (and your source) on CCW Applicant crime rates. Thank you in advance.

OK, I will give you "applicant". I meant those 'approved'. Do you want to debate those approved against the rest of the population? You know, as far as which are more law abiding?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,647]

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Yes it might. But will it stop or even deter psycho students with a desire to kill their student mates?

Maybe, maybe not, but it could mitigate the damage if it doesn't deter. We won't know about the deterrence effect unless we try. What we do know is that people who jump through all the hoops to get a CCW/CHL are highly unlikely to commit a crime, so the risk of allowing CCW is very low, especially since most students are underage and cannot get a CCW. The staff and faculty are probably more likely to arm themselves.

It is a proven fact that CCW applicants are the most law abiding. That is a stat worth taking note of.

WHo keeps stats on CCW applicants? We do have stats that approved CCW recipients are more law abiding, because the criminals and loonies have been filtered out by the screening.

... you said loonies....... a class you understand.....

Oh, and those stats ARE out there. But is a sure thing you do not care

Actually I do care. Please provide stats (and your source) on CCW Applicant crime rates. Thank you in advance.

OK, I will give you "applicant".

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I meant those 'approved'. Do you want to debate those approved against the rest of the population? You know, as far as which are more law abiding?

Please read THIS. Try to keep up!

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

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Yes it might. But will it stop or even deter psycho students with a desire to kill their student mates?

Maybe, maybe not, but it could mitigate the damage if it doesn't deter. We won't know about the deterrence effect unless we try. What we do know is that people who jump through all the hoops to get a CCW/CHL are highly unlikely to commit a crime, so the risk of allowing CCW is very low, especially since most students are underage and cannot get a CCW. The staff and faculty are probably more likely to arm themselves.

It is a proven fact that CCW applicants are the most law abiding. That is a stat worth taking note of.

WHo keeps stats on CCW applicants? We do have stats that approved CCW recipients are more law abiding, because the criminals and loonies have been filtered out by the screening.

... you said loonies....... a class you understand.....

Oh, and those stats ARE out there. But is a sure thing you do not care

Actually I do care. Please provide stats (and your source) on CCW Applicant crime rates. Thank you in advance.

OK, I will give you "applicant".

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I meant those 'approved'. Do you want to debate those approved against the rest of the population? You know, as far as which are more law abiding?

Please read THIS. Try to keep up!

Dam, now one can keep up with you huh.

I am just happy you can keep true to your make an insult first replies. It makes you look so intelligent....and humble.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kelpdiver 2]

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OK, I will give you "applicant". I meant those 'approved'. Do you want to debate those approved against the rest of the population? You know, as far as which are more law abiding?

As I replied to him, you should be able to obtain this information on a state by state basis. They give summary reports each year on applications, renewals, and revocations. But it's really not your obligation to do so. And the relevance of the data is questionable at best.

[auburnguy 0]

Surely CNN could have found someone better for the other side of the debate.
Great job, I'm with you 100%.

"If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way."
- Homer Simpson

[kelpdiver 2]

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Surely CNN could have found someone better for the other side of the debate.

I just listened to the CNN clip to understand what you meant. The CNN anchor ran it very well, and both men were pretty poised.

It was interesting in that Evans, speaking for the other side, opened with pointing out that he is perhaps not an appropriate person to ask these questions given his recent experience as a victim. But he then went on to do his best to argue his viewpoint. which is really about gun control rather than the question of CCWs on campus or not. He was probably the best or most willing of the VT survivors to take on this side, but I doubt his field of study is in media relations or debate.

Weirdest remark - trashing Lott even though he hadn't been raised as a topic. Clearly he practiced his talking points, but that one was awkwardly wedged into the conversation.

Lewis, otoh, definitely has this experience and is the representative for the CCW interests as a result. Reiterated that these students already have these rights elsewhere and that they had to prove themselves to get it.

Weirdest remark - the 60 semesters of no trouble at the 11 campuses allowing CCW. Kallend mocked it, and it's easy to do so, because it's not a very compelling stat. I think it works better to talk about CCW experience that the states have seen and then perhaps add that so far on these 11 campuses over the past 2 years there has not been a single negative incident. In a few more years, that experience has a bit more legs.

[auburnguy 0]

Perhaps a good way to help get your message across is to point out examples of people with ccw's stopping crimes. I read several articles on this very topic with plenty of examples after the VA tech incident.
Personally i'm not out in public enough to need a CCW. I'm about to get a USP .45 tac with knights armament suppressor so ill probobly end up with one before too long. You cant let a piece of hardware like that sit at home all day!

"If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way."
- Homer Simpson

[kallend 1,647]

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OK, I will give you "applicant". I meant those 'approved'. Do you want to debate those approved against the rest of the population? You know, as far as which are more law abiding?

As I replied to him, you should be able to obtain this information on a state by state basis. They give summary reports each year on applications, renewals, and revocations. But it's really not your obligation to do so. .

Of course it is - he made the claim. It's up to him to justify it. Anyhow, he's withdrawn his claim now he's been challenged on it.

Changing the topic. According to the FBI UCR (Table 38 for those interested in checking MY claim) the 18-24 year age group represents, by far, the greatest rate of both violent crime and homicides. Trying to use CCW data for the population as a whole to justify arming college students who exactly fit in this age range is totally bogus.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.