Mitt Romney

[SpeedRacer 1]

So why are they making a big deal about this speech he's supposed to give?? who cares if he's a mormon, why is this even an issue?

The only way I would care about the religious beliefs of a candidate would be if he was the Hagee type, who felt it was his holy duty to bring about Armageddon.

Speed Racer
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[masterrig 1]

Seems like, I recall a similar situation when John F. Kennedy ran because he was a Catholic.


Chuck

[Gawain 0]

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So why are they making a big deal about this speech he's supposed to give?? who cares if he's a mormon, why is this even an issue?

The only way I would care about the religious beliefs of a candidate would be if he was the Hagee type, who felt it was his holy duty to bring about Armageddon.

Some of this he brings on himself. I've never met a Mormon who didn't just love talking about their religion.

There are some Mormon mission kids in our apartment complex, I said hi to one of them once. Within minutes I was practically surrounded by young adults, wearing short-sleeve button down shirts and ties...all ready to share the word...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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Some of this he brings on himself. I've never met a Mormon who didn't just love talking about their religion.

There are some Mormon mission kids in our apartment complex, I said hi to one of them once. Within minutes I was practically surrounded by young adults, wearing short-sleeve button down shirts and ties...all ready to share the word...

I've met a lot of evangelical Christians that I could say the same for. My current Prime Minister is an evangelical Christian; should I attribute him with the behavior I have seen in other evangelicals?

[Gawain 0]

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I've met a lot of evangelical Christians that I could say the same for. My current Prime Minister is an evangelical Christian; should I attribute him with the behavior I have seen in other evangelicals?

That's your choice. I've met a few that fit the bill you talked about too.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[kelpdiver 2]

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I've met a lot of evangelical Christians that I could say the same for. My current Prime Minister is an evangelical Christian; should I attribute him with the behavior I have seen in other evangelicals?

That's your choice. I've met a few that fit the bill you talked about too.

but few of the other christian variants have the institution of the two year mission.

And few of the others are spending as much in political campaigns - CA's 'defense of marriage' initiative was bankrolled by LDS.

So yeah, it does matter to me. But I think it matters even more to the GOP, most of who reject the Mormon faith as not being true Christians. But it's an interesting clash of big $$ and Christian bigotry.

[Gawain 0]

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I've met a lot of evangelical Christians that I could say the same for. My current Prime Minister is an evangelical Christian; should I attribute him with the behavior I have seen in other evangelicals?

That's your choice. I've met a few that fit the bill you talked about too.

but few of the other christian variants have the institution of the two year mission.

And few of the others are spending as much in political campaigns - CA's 'defense of marriage' initiative was bankrolled by LDS.

So yeah, it does matter to me. But I think it matters even more to the GOP, most of who reject the Mormon faith as not being true Christians. But it's an interesting clash of big $$ and Christian bigotry.

I've never said that it shouldn't matter to anyone, but I think it shows bigotry on a religious level no matter who is judging, when they are willing to throw the baby out with the bath water on certain issues.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Andrewwhyte 1]

What did he do as governor to raise your suspicions? isn't that the real question.

[kelpdiver 2]

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What did he do as governor to raise your suspicions? isn't that the real question.

hasn't yet, but I haven't paid attention to him either. If he makes it to February, then I'll think about him more. I suspect his platform alone makes him untenable to me. But given the LDS's involvement in CA in the past, I view him with suspicion.

Disregarding the religion, the misogyny, the bans on most drugs, I think the Mormon Church serves the role of community extremely well. Unfortunately, they then move on to force many of the beliefs on the rest of us, seen in the non existence of good beer in Utah, in the anti gay legislation, etc. I believe it should no longer have tax exemption.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Ya, personally I think they are all kooks; but then again I tend to think that about Christians too. It's never stopped me from voting for one.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Ya, personally I think they are all kooks; but then again I tend to think that about Christians too. It's never stopped me from voting for one.

Well, how often do you have a choice on the matter? in 2000, you could vote for a two christians or a christian and a jew. And that was about as much choice as you've had in a long while.

[Unstable 8]

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Ya, personally I think they are all kooks; but then again I tend to think that about Christians too. It's never stopped me from voting for one.

I think this is one of the most intelligent things said in this thread. The LDS Church makes very few political stands, and it is against church policy to use the buildings, the contact lists, or any of their resources for political purposes. There are Democrat Mormons and Republicans, it doesn't make you any less of a believer.

i'm sorry to hear that Kelpdiver had a bad experience with the Missionaries. Sometimes, they may get a little overzealous, but the same can be said for more evangelical groups. They are trained to speak and ask direct questions, and sometimes a polite direct answer may be the best method. "I'm sorry boys, but I'm really not interested today." This is for another thread, but I have a copy of the manual that the missionaries use to direct their work, and hasseling people is not part of the programme.



I may or may not vote for ol' Mitt, but it certainly won't be because he's a Mormon.

=========Shaun ==========

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Well, I think I'm often given the choice between those who go through the motions of being a Christian and those who live their faith day by day. I wont say I don't consider this at all, but I have voted for an evangelical on a couple of occasions; this includes for the current Prime Minister, who maintains my (somewhat tepid) support.

[DSE 3]

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The LDS Church makes very few political stands, and it is against church policy to use the buildings, the contact lists, or any of their resources for political purposes. There are Democrat Mormons and Republicans, it doesn't make you any less of a believer.

This is not quite accurate; it was only very recently (less than a year ago) that the Deseret News published a story quoting leadership of the LDS faith saying "it is acceptable to be a Democrat and still be LDS."
There are fewer Dem's in Utah than any other state. Yes, you can be Mormon and be a Democrat; the LDS church has recently given permission to Mormons to be Dems. Prior to permission, Mormon Dems were 'in the closet.'

Why Romney's speech is very important to him winning the election?
Unlike Kennedy's Catholicism, members of the LDS faith swear blinding allegience to the President of the Corporation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints and to the leadership of the Prophet of the church. No matter how one cuts it up, if Romney is true to his temple ordinances and coventants, he must put the desires of the Prophet ahead of anything else. He has no choice. Romney wins the election, he's "called of man." Prophet trumps that, because he's "called of God."

Catholics haven't baptized former presidents of the USA into their church after they were dead, either. Mormons believe that unless one is Mormon, he cannot enter into God's kingdom.
Wilford Woodruff wrote an accounting of a "personal visitation from George Washington," said visitation having taken place in St. George, Utah on April 10, 1898, in which visitation Washington, and later Thomas Jefferson "begged Woodruff to do the various temple ordinances that would assure their entry into the Kingdom of God."
Later, according to Woodruff, "All signers of the Declaration of Independence made the same request, "coming to him in person, within the halls of the St. George temple."

A BYU survey a few years back demonstrated that:
)98% of the members of the church believe that Joseph Smith (convicted pedophile, polygamist, charlatan) is a true prophet of God.

)96% believe that the LDS faith is the only true church on earth, and the only church truthfully guided by God.

)88% believe that they "place obedience to church authority over personal preferences."

Historical scholars, including the LDS members of the Sunstone, predominantly agree that the LDS faith is intent on taking all powers of mankind upon themselves and the president/prophet of the church being ruler over the world (Joseph Smith prophesied as much).
Armand Mauss, former Mormon and professor at Washington State University wrote that he was "exceptionally bothered by the LDS leadership pronouncing from the pulpit that when the prophet speaks, the thinking has been done for you." In other words, never question what the prophet says.
Is this a proper concept for a potential presidential candidate??
Mormonism does not accept pluralism; thinking outside the box is not permitted, period.

It's absolute bullshit to suggest the "LDS Church takes very few political stands." Off hand and at 4:00 a.m. I can think of at least 30 instances, the biggest being that the LDS Church single-handedly defeated ERA.
Additionally, the single largest owner of media outlets in the world, is the LDS faith. The single largest group of privately-owned satellites is the LDS faith. The largest missionary force in the world? LDS faith.

Although this sounds like an anti-Mormon rant, bear in mind that the subject is Romney. He is part of an LDS prophecy that a Mormon must be president of the USA by the end of the last century.
Orrin Hatch tried, Romney's father tried, Robert Bennett tried, Gordon Smith is grooming as a hopeful, and here is Romney, very much poised to walk with it.

For me, the sole reason (aside from the fact that I worked at two arm lengths from Romney during the Olympics and think he's a terrible human being), that I would not vote for him, is that he is a Mormon. I've never heard of a Catholic, Christian, Muslim, Bhuddist, Druid, Hindu or other religion prophesying that their religion demanded the president of the US be of their faith, and that their "faith would save the world from utter chaos." Only Mormonism makes that claim, and it's a scary thought that a half-senile old man like Gordon B. Hinkley would be running this country by proxy.

One can't accurately compare the Romney-Mormon issue to Kennedy-Catholic issue.
Catholics do not believe that the Pope is a living, breathing prophet of god, they do not believe that the pope receives physical, visual visitations from God or Christ on a daily basis, and they do not believe that the New Zion will be built in the USA after a nuclear holocaust.
Conversely, the LDS faith believes that their prophet is a living prophet who has physically touched the hand of Christ, has personally met/walked with God in a physical (not meta-physical) sense, who speaks on behalf of God.

No religion, including Islam, offers up so tremendous a power to one man, and one individual who is running for president, takes a verbal oath at least once a month, to uphold, sustain, and obey the Prophet of the LDS faith.

Doesn't that scare the hell out of anyone capable of logical thought?

[Zing 2]

And if all that, which I pretty much agree with, doesn't give a potential voter pause, how about the likely fact that a GOP nod to Romney's nomination as the candidate of the republican Party further assures an already likely Democratic victory in the presidential election.

On the other hand, Romney has already demonstrated the depth of his belief in his deeply-held personal moral issues. They are, to him it seems, adjustable according to what he needs to say to be electable ... so maybe his Mormon convictions are equally shallow.

At this late stage, neither party appears likely to field a candidate I feel I could support in good conscience. There are a few with some appeal, but those few don't stand a snowball's chance in Hell of getting a nomination, let alone winning the election.

I hope someday to cast a ballot on an important task like the presidential election that is NOT a choice of lesser evils ... win or lose.

Zing Lurks

[PLFXpert 0]

I agree in theory.

But if a scientologist were running I'd find it hard not to to factor in the weird belief of the candidate. No different for me when it comes to the mormon. I have a couple mormons in my family. They're weird.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[SpeedRacer 1]

well, in 1960 some people thought Catholics were weird.

Especially in area where there weren't too many Catholics around. Catholics were rumored to be stockpiling guns in their church basements.

And many people (John Birch society etc) thought that Kennedy would be taking directions from the Pope if he got elected.

As for the post about prophecy & Mormon president in the last century: That's pretty extreme. Do you think that just because Romney is a Mormon, that he is an extremist? If he was, that WOULD bother me. But then again, we have scary Protestant Christian extremists preaching about end times (Hagee is one example). But that doesn't put me off of Protestant candidates in general, because most of them are not religious extremists.

Speed Racer
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[DSE 3]

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As for the post about prophecy & Mormon president in the last century: That's pretty extreme. Do you think that just because Romney is a Mormon, that he is an extremist? If he was, that WOULD bother me. But then again, we have scary Protestant Christian extremists preaching about end times (Hagee is one example). But that doesn't put me off of Protestant candidates in general, because most of them are not religious extremists.

You miss two salient points;
a) If the presidential candidate had a sworn oath (on a monthly basis) to obey Hagee (as one example) would you find that acceptable?

b) The prophecy itself may have been made in the last century, but the LDS leadership have sustained that prophecy publically even in this decade. Additionally, Kem Gardner (who was a huge public supporter of Romney til censured for violating campaign laws) is still touting that line.

Should also add, in Utah, it is widely believed that Romney hired an old college buddy's phone-survey firm to generate anti-mormon/romney polls. The opinion is that Romney was trying to discredit McCain.
Original story: http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695228105,00.html

Followups:
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=Y2ZkMWNkZDkzOTk1YTM0NTNkNmJlZThmYjJmM2ZmOGE=

[Unstable 8]

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This is not quite accurate; it was only very recently (less than a year ago) that the Deseret News published a story quoting leadership of the LDS faith saying "it is acceptable to be a Democrat and still be LDS."
There are fewer Dem's in Utah than any other state. Yes, you can be Mormon and be a Democrat; the LDS church has recently given permission to Mormons to be Dems. Prior to permission, Mormon Dems were 'in the closet.'

I agree, that something there is a stigma that because Liberals are for abortion {or pick your issue} you can't be a good Mormon and Democrate. However your statement is false - There are, and have been prominent leaders in the church and in government who are Democrats. If what you say is true, then they would have been released, excommunicated, disfellowshipped, et cetera for their political beliefs.

Many of these men hold High positions in the church and they are good members, and they serve their country according to the dictates of their own conscience and not what Salt Lake tells them.

=========Shaun ==========

[DSE 3]

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This is not quite accurate; it was only very recently (less than a year ago) that the Deseret News published a story quoting leadership of the LDS faith saying "it is acceptable to be a Democrat and still be LDS."
There are fewer Dem's in Utah than any other state. Yes, you can be Mormon and be a Democrat; the LDS church has recently given permission to Mormons to be Dems. Prior to permission, Mormon Dems were 'in the closet.'

I agree, that something there is a stigma that because Liberals are for abortion {or pick your issue} you can't be a good Mormon and Democrate. However your statement is false - There are, and have been prominent leaders in the church and in government who are Democrats. If what you say is true, then they would have been released, excommunicated, disfellowshipped, et cetera for their political beliefs.

Many of these men hold High positions in the church and they are good members, and they serve their country according to the dictates of their own conscience and not what Salt Lake tells them.

Only if you take it to an extreme view would it result in excommunications.
The mere fact that Utah Dems have to ADVERTISE who famous mormon Dems are, speaks more loudly than anything I can say. BTW, my sister in law, a Mormon, is the chairperson of the Democratic Women of Utah. Yeah, I'm aware.
Note that there are no Mormon republican apologist sites. Note that there are hundreds of "can I be mormon and Democrat" articles, posts, discussions all over the web. Face it, the very teachings of the LDS faith make it very, very difficult to be anything but a conservative.
I read with great humor, the quote that LDS church president Gordon B. Hinckley (quote)"even wrote a sympathetic biography of James Moyle, a prominent Mormon Democrat, thus signaling the tolerance of Liberals within the LDS faith..."

The point is, the Dems in the LDS faith are few and defensive. The LDS faith feels compelled to let the Dems know that they are "tolerated" or "accepted." Hardly a balanced state of affairs, wouldn't you agree? Notice that the GREAT majority of those on your list were in politics before the church changed it's public status in the mid 60's? Notice that almost *none* of them were raised in the LDS faith, but were converts to the church in later years? Notice how desperate they are to put their position forward by showing Ken Jennings, the nearly-forgotten "Jeopardy" winner?
Have you read any of Harry Reid's post-campaign speeches, wherein he often says that being a Mormon Democrat is an oxymoron?
What part of what I said isn't true?
~there are very few Dems in the LDS faith-fact
~the LDS leadership recently acknowledged that there is nothing wrong with being Mormon and Democrat-fact (I read that as granting permission, if you read it any other way...)

Yeah, there are mormons who are liberal. And there are openly practicing Christians in Iran, too.

And I submit you don't have a clue about whether the few that are still in office follow the dictates of their own minds vs the leadership of the church. I do know that the one member of my family who is reasonably high in state politics and a Dem, is contacted very often by various church leaders to "ask" his opinion about certain issues while sharing their viewpoint with him. I can see President Hinckley "asking" Pres Romney about his position on something like ERA while sharing his views on the subject with POTUS.

BTW, all of my life, I've heard the bullshit phrase "he/she's a good member of the church."
Does anyone ever say he/she is a bad member? I always wondered what might happen if I didn't raise my hand to sustain someone.

[kelpdiver 2]

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And many people (John Birch society etc) thought that Kennedy would be taking directions from the Pope if he got elected.

And you're sure that wasn't merely propaganda by the far right against an opposing party candidate?

I think today's Bad Reporter (political cartoonist) got it right: 'Romney: I won't confuse religion and politics - and I'll ban gay marriage.'

http://www.sfgate.com/columnists/asmussen/

[AWL71 0]

Good question. It is ironic how people teach tolerance and understanding only when it suites them. Ane people need to remember there are three branches of Government. If the present day prophet started giving orders to Mitt if he was elected like DSE is certain he will then he still has to pass his agendas through congress.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[PLFXpert 0]

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people teach tolerance and understanding only when it suites them.

Put me in a nice suite, and I might be a bit more understanding, too.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[LuvToFly 0]

Douglas,

I think my problem with the whole Mormon/Romney thing is two fold -

1) He has gone out of his way - way out of his way - to step forward in a speech to convince the American public that he is just a simple Christian, like all other Christians - stating that "Jesus Christ is the son of God" as positional proof of that fact.

Theologically speaking, there is no one living in the entire world who believes that Jesus Christ is the son of God more than the devil. So to say that Christ is the son of God in fact says nothing about one's shared vision with rank and file Christians.

2) Speaking of devil, the devil is in the details where conventional Christianity and Mormonism are concerned. The aspects about the diety of Christ, how he got to be the son of God, who he was related to, and how God the creator got to be there are fundamentally attached to conventional Christian thinking. But the Mormon religion has different explanations on all of those fronts. This is not conventional Christianity at all - but something else. It does not make it bad - but it is not the same.

My complaint with Romney is because he is playing the chameleon game - to appear like everyone else amongst evangelicals, when in fact Mormonism holds grossly different views on a number unnegotiable fronts. I'd have more respect for someone if they had a particular faith, had no problem admitting how much it really was different, and was okay with that. There is a feeling of a smoke-screen to many in all of this -

The other problem with his actions is that they appear too blatently the result of political expediency. It was not until it was discovered that "God is good" for poll numbers due to Mike Huckabee's meteoric rise that he made a 180 turn on speaking (he said formerly that he saw no reason to defend his faith on more than one occasion)

In the Mormon articles of faith, it clearly spells out that the Word of God is incomplete without the Book of Mormon.

This is utterly incompatible with Christian view as it is understood by most believers.

"The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment
of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

[DSE 3]

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Douglas,

I think my problem with the whole Mormon/Romney thing is two fold -

1) He has gone out of his way - way out of his way - to step forward in a speech to convince the American public that he is just a simple Christian, like all other Christians - stating that "Jesus Christ is the son of God" as positional proof of that fact.

Theologically speaking, there is no one living in the entire world who believes that Jesus Christ is the son of God more than the devil. So to say that Christ is the son of God in fact says nothing about one's shared vision with rank and file Christians.

2) Speaking of devil, the devil is in the details where conventional Christianity and Mormonism are concerned. The aspects about the diety of Christ, how he got to be the son of God, who he was related to, and how God the creator got to be there are fundamentally attached to conventional Christian thinking. But the Mormon religion has different explanations on all of those fronts. This is not conventional Christianity at all - but something else. It does not make it bad - but it is not the same.

My complaint with Romney is because he is playing the chameleon game - to appear like everyone else amongst evangelicals, when in fact Mormonism holds grossly different views on a number unnegotiable fronts. I'd have more respect for someone if they had a particular faith, had no problem admitting how much it really was different, and was okay with that. There is a feeling of a smoke-screen to many in all of this -

The other problem with his actions is that they appear too blatently the result of political expediency. It was not until it was discovered that "God is good" for poll numbers due to Mike Huckabee's meteoric rise that he made a 180 turn on speaking (he said formerly that he saw no reason to defend his faith on more than one occasion)

In the Mormon articles of faith, it clearly spells out that the Word of God is incomplete without the Book of Mormon.

This is utterly incompatible with Christian view as it is understood by most believers.

Interesting points all.
In reading the local paper, the most visited webpage (and positively rated webpage) of the day is the letter to the editor entitled "Mormon Theocracy"

Mormon theocracy
Public Forum Letter
Article Last Updated: 12/11/2007 10:41:52 PM MST

During Mitt Romney's recent speech he stated, "Let me assure you that no authorities of my church, or any other church for that matter, will ever exert influence on presidential decisions."
Nice rhetoric but the reality, after living under the Utah Mormon theocracy most of my adult life, is that most Mormons do look to the Mormon leadership for direction.
In Utah the Mormon theocracy is one whose Mormon legislators usually submit bills to the LDS First Presidency before enactment, for their review and approval; a Mormon theocracy that was sold a portion of Salt Lake under the guise that it would become "a bit of Paris," then after the purchase is made becomes a Mormon enclave, complete with guards, to ensure that fact; a Mormon theocracy that cancels civic functions on Mondays to facilitate Family Home Evening; a Mormon theocracy that proposes a shield to hide all liquor in restaurants so as not to offend Mormons - and on and on.

Victor Roblez
Holladay

I'd say this guy hit it straight on the head. The county I live in has fewer mormons than any other county in Utah and we feel a tremendous impact on our lifestyle anyway. Then there are counties like Utah county where you can't even go see an R-rated movie.
But at least *so far*, we don't have to hide our liquor in public places like they do in SLC and Utah counties. Would you believe that one commissioner wanted to pass a law that says if you drink beer in public, you must keep a brown bag wrapped around the beer??