Hot Muslim Swimwear

[Butters 0]

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> 1) Hippy Hollow, the only sactioned Texas State Park that allows Total Nudity, however it is patrolled by the State Police.

The cops are patrolling it on their off time, are a bit creepy, and have cameras, but they are patrolling.

It is pretty creepy having a naked cop tell you, "stop or I'll shoot".

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

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In this country people have a greater amount of choice in the level of modesty they display. (What is the punishment for choosing an unacceptable level of modest in both cultures ...)

Nice about-face. What you actually said is:

"Once again, the difference is that in this country people have the choice to be modest or not."

The point of both statements is the same. The second statement was made to clarify the first statement.

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As for finding honor killings acceptable, well as a matter of fact I think ANY form of capital punishment is absolutely unacceptable, no matter what the circumstances.
But capital punishment is allowed in most states in the US! I hereby declare my stance on this issue to be right and that of the US wrong and urge the EU to invade the United States in order to set things right. How about that?

Vale

So you believe that there are things that are unacceptable regardless of culture. Wouldn't this also mean that there are things that are acceptable regardless of culture. So why should I accept a society mandating through rules, regulations, punishments, etc... their cultural view of things that I believe are acceptable regardless of culture?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[vpozzoli 0]

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The point of both statements is the same. The second statement was made to clarify the first statement.

Bullshit. They have completely different meanings. Nobody has the choice whether to be modest or not (at least not in public!), not even in the US. And modesty is as defined by current "indecent exposure" laws, and not according to one's personal definition of modesty. Of course anybody has the choice to cover themselves up more than the law dictates, up to the point of voluntarily never showing oneself in public at all. What changes is the minimum amount of covering up one must do in order not to be punished for indecently exposing oneself, but so what? Every culture is different, no big surprise there. Please keep in mind that US laws about nudity and profanity in the media are far stricter than those found in most European countries, does this make the US an inferior culture?

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So you believe that there are things that are unacceptable regardless of culture. Wouldn't this also mean that there are things that are acceptable regardless of culture. So why should I accept a society mandating through rules, regulations, punishments, etc... their cultural view of things that I believe are acceptable regardless of culture?

And where the hell (oops I swore in public I must be from some very advanced culture ) did I say that? All I said is that I think that capital punishment is unacceptable. This is my personal opinion which is heavily influenced by the cultural setting I grew up in (Europe) and I would not even dream of forcing my point of view on this issue on another culture (yes the crack about invading the US was just sarcasm, in case somebody didn't get it).
As for why you should accept the existence of other cultures that might be radically different from yours, well that's just the way the world works and if you don't like it, SIUCC

Cheers,

Vale

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They have completely different meanings

No, they have the same intended meaning. Maybe if you read it a few more times you might comprehend it.

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Please keep in mind that US laws about nudity and profanity in the media are far stricter than those found in most European countries, does this make the US an inferior culture?

Could this possibly be why I didn't state that the United States of America was right? Possibly ...

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All I said is that I think that capital punishment is unacceptable.

All I said is that I think that the rules, regulations, punishments, etc... regarding modesty in the United States of America are more acceptable than than the rules, regulations, punishments, etc... regarding modesty in Iran.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[rehmwa 2]

I wonder if the point here, and it applies to any country/government, is - what do we think about any government that takes subjective cultural norms and feels the need to legislate them as law......

At what point do consider legislating something that should really be driven by personal choice and culture to be too much?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Butters 0]

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I wonder if the point here, and it applies to any country/government, is - what do we think about any government that takes subjective cultural norms and feels the need to legislate them as law......

At what point do consider legislating something that should really be driven by personal choice and culture to be too much?

I obviously lack the ability to articulate my point. Thank you! I thought it would be easier to articulate that I believe that there are things that are unacceptable regardless of culture and these things should be legislated using arguments based on logic and reasoning and that there are things that are unacceptable based on culture and they should not be legislated. Next time I have a point can I ask you to articulate it for me?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[wmw999 2,148]

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I wonder if the point here, and it applies to any country/government, is - what do we think about any government that takes subjective cultural norms and feels the need to legislate them as law......

At what point do consider legislating something that should really be driven by personal choice and culture to be too much?

That's a MUCH better topic of discussion.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rehmwa 2]

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Next time I have a point can I ask you to articulate it for me?

Me so good at dumbing down things.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Next time I have a point can I ask you to articulate it for me?

Me so good at dumbing down things.

You call it dumbing down. I call it clear and concise. What does that say about me?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[JohnRich 4]

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quote from your artical

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"Iran has hanged 17 convicted drug traffickers in the northeastern Khorasan Razavi province and four other criminals in the southern city of Shiraz, state media said Wednesday."

Whats your point dude?

I'm not a "dude".

Here's a point for you:

Liberals like to call places with a death penalty names like "barbaric", and condemn the act.

However, when Iran executes 21 people in a single day, suddenly it's okay, because "that's just their culture".

Liberals have so many double-standards, I'm amazed that they're not all cross-eyed from trying to keep up with 'em.

I want to see liberals who condemn the death penalty in America, also condemn the death penalty in Iran. Do any of you have the guts to stand up and do this?

[JohnRich 4]

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>that here in America you can wear pretty much any kind of bathing suit you want . . .

Again, John, take your girlfriend to the beach and walk around topless (the both of you.) See how much freedom she has from arrest - and see if the cops treat you both the same based on your gender.

Go back and read my entire statement, including the part that you omitted in the quote, above.

How many nude beaches do you think there are in Iran? How many in America?

Shame on you for resorting to such underhanded tactics to try and score a point. If you have to omit something and take me out of context to score a point, then you've really just lost a point instead.

A female Iranian government official was fired from her job for simply hugging her tandem master after a skydive in another country. What do you suppose Iran would do to her if she wore a bikini on a public beach?

[Darius11 12]

Well I don’t have an issue with the death penalty, as a matter of fact I think if you kill someone with the intent to kill you should die simple as that.


Also the liberals you are referring to are any of them citizens of Iran or the other countries that use the death penalty? I don't think so

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

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What do you suppose Iran would do to her if she wore a bikini on a public beach?

Well depends John.

The public beaches in Iran are segregated for males or females only.
They try to accommodate peoples wishes and at the same time follow their modesty laws.

Woman have there own gyms, and just the fact that she was a government official kind of goes against many claims that woman are treated as cattle or lower class citizens.

Again lets not forget the first female president was in t a Muslim country.


Also the gym me and the GF go to has a segregated area for the woman. I asked my American very independent girl friend why is that and is there a point to it. She mentioned she loved it as she can work out without getting ogled. This is a regular gym by the way not a Muslim one.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

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Yes that’s because the majority of that country believes so strongly in modesty that they want to make it a law.

So if the majority of a culture agrees upon something then it is acceptable to impose their belief on the minority. So when the majority of a culture agrees to commit genocide against the minority ... you believe it is acceptable?

An excellent distinction; between majority rule and minority rights. Democracy means nothing without liberty. Iran has neither.

In a democracy laws are made via representation chosen by the population. If the democracy is founded on a constitution of freedoms, those laws must pass the test of not violating people's liberties.

Democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep deciding to have sheep for dinner. Libery is the sheep showing up for dinner, . . . armed to the teeth and ready to defend itself.

Bottom line is that I am torn on the issue. I try to understand that cultures need to be allowed to mature at their own pace. It is after all only 140 years since we had legal slavery, less than a century since women got the vote, and only 60 years ago we locked up people of Japanese descent out of cultural ignorance.

But it is tough to read stories of people prohibited from going to school or riding bikes, of women allowed by local elders to be gang raped because they disgraced their family, of innocent civilians being killed daily for no other reason than as a scare tactic.

Islam needs to get it's shit together - resolve it's internal disputes, and at least officially make some sort of earnest attempt to stop exporting it's brand of oppression and hatred to the rest of the world.

And those incredibly weak comparisons between oppression in the US and other western countries versus the oppression in the religiously ruled Islamic states do nothing for the credibility of those that defend Islam. Here, if we disagree on religion, we go to internet forums and rag on each other a bit. There, you're likely to get your head sawn off.

In my eyes we have two options:

1 - Continue the current occupation, in which case we just continue to give fuel to their claims of imperial abuse, their recruitment efforts, and their continued atrocious behavior.

2 - Get the hell out of their world and give them a few decades to get their shit together and maybe mature as a society. (And by that I mean the granting of freedoms and liberties by some sort of representative governance).

Option 2 would have to come with the caveat that if they threaten our liberties (such as our right to live) by continuing to turn a blind eye to the terrorists within their charge, we will need to come back and do the job for them - the next time with deadly serious intent, not some PC police action.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

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Islam Cultures needs to get it's their shit together

Fixed it for you. The things you described are committed by people of all faiths (and even people with no faith). Don't believe me, take a look at the poorest of poor areas in the United States of America where people are routinely murdered, raped, etc...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[pirana 0]

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Islam Cultures needs to get it's their shit together

Fixed it for you. The things you described are committed by people of all faiths (and even people with no faith). Don't believe me, take a look at the poorest of poor areas in the United States of America where people are routinely murdered, raped, etc...

I do believe you; but I'm talking systemic and institutionalized abuse. It's not even a close comparison. Rape here is a crime no matter who does it to who. In areas where fundamentalist Islamic clerics hold sway; there are actually traditional rules that grant people the right to commit gang rape against teenage girls. (There were a couple very well publicized recent incidents out of Pakistan, IIRC).

My point has to do with legally protected freedoms that balance with laws passed by majority rule and representative governance. If your counter to that is the incredibly sophisticated it-happens-everywhere retort, then you are not reading and/or not understanding.

Are you saying that when you compare governance, representation, liberties, human rights, and any similar topics between the 2 countries, you come to the conclusion that neither is better than the other?

Imagine having your local priest decide that your family had wronged some other family. As reparation, he decides that all the men of the other family get to come over and gang rape your daughter or little sister. Is that really a culture you can get behind and defend as being no worse than ours?

p.s. - Fixed what? I didn't see that it was broken. You may disagree, but I'd rather hear the meat behind your opinion; not just a scratching out of a couple words in somebody else's post.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

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Islam Cultures needs to get it's their shit together

Fixed it for you.

Imagine having your local priest decide that your family had wronged some other family. As reparation, he decides that all the men of the other family get to come over and gang rape your daughter or little sister. Is that really a culture you can get behind and defend as being no worse than ours?

Are you referring to faith or culture? I already agreed that some cultures need to get their shit together.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Darius11 12]

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Imagine having your local priest decide that your family had wronged some other family. As reparation, he decides that all the men of the other family get to come over and gang rape your daughter or little sister. Is that really a culture you can get behind and defend as being no worse than ours?

Again you’re using a limited minority to describe a majority. That’s like using an American cult to describe America.

Do horrible things happen in the world yes they do they happen everywhere.


Are all Christians child molesters? No but there is a lot of examples of Christian men of god who have committed what I believe we can agree is one of the worst crimes that can be committed. Not to mention the man some are trying to make a saint knew about it and did nothing.

The point is shit happens every it would wrong to take a few examples and make a blanket judgment.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[JohnRich 4]

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The point is shit happens every it would wrong to take a few examples and make a blanket judgment.

When you get married someday and have daughters, where would you prefer them to live and grow up: America, or Iran?

The point is, women are more oppressed in Iran, and have more freedom and opportunity in America.

What's your choice?

[rehmwa 2]

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give them a few decades to get their shit together and maybe mature as a society

The number of decades can be defined by the coverage of "modern" women in history - how many years back do we go to see equivalent coverage for swimming in our history.

It might be a good indicator of whether the other country is progressing at all, fast or slow.

It would be appropriate for me to attach a picture of one of the old timey swimsuits, but I'm too lazy to do the search.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Casurf1978 0]

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The point is, women are more oppressed in Iran, and have more freedom and opportunity in America.

Very true. HBO did a special on a 16yo girl that was executed in Iran. Here's her story from the BBC.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5217424.stm

It's terrible how women and some minorities get treated over there.

[pirana 0]

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Islam Cultures needs to get it's their shit together

Fixed it for you.

Imagine having your local priest decide that your family had wronged some other family. As reparation, he decides that all the men of the other family get to come over and gang rape your daughter or little sister. Is that really a culture you can get behind and defend as being no worse than ours?

Are you referring to faith or culture? I already agreed that some cultures need to get their shit together.

OK then, I agree.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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Imagine having your local priest decide that your family had wronged some other family. As reparation, he decides that all the men of the other family get to come over and gang rape your daughter or little sister. Is that really a culture you can get behind and defend as being no worse than ours?

Again you’re using a limited minority to describe a majority. That’s like using an American cult to describe America.

Do horrible things happen in the world yes they do they happen everywhere.


Are all Christians child molesters? No but there is a lot of examples of Christian men of god who have committed what I believe we can agree is one of the worst crimes that can be committed. Not to mention the man some are trying to make a saint knew about it and did nothing.

The point is shit happens every it would wrong to take a few examples and make a blanket judgment.

No, the point is they have a religiously dominated culture (in places) that not only allows it, but officially condones it.

Here it is ALWAYS a crime to commit rape. Whether or not prosection is successful, that is a separate issue. There it is acceptable in certain circumstances. It is insidious to compare the two, and very tough to swallow as a harmless cultural difference.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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Are all Christians child molesters? No but there is a lot of examples of Christian men of god who have committed what I believe we can agree is one of the worst crimes that can be committed. Not to mention the man some are trying to make a saint knew about it and did nothing.

No; but you trying to justify or rationalize the treatment of women in places where they are treated as possessions would be like me trying to justify the legalization of child molestation by priests.

If we lived by rules that made it OK for priests to molest kids to satisfy a debt, then we would be on the same ground as the hard core fundie Islamists and their giving permission to to take reparations by commiting rape.*

*Even typing that is repugnant.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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It might be a good indicator of whether the other country is progressing at all, fast or slow.

It would be appropriate for me to attach a picture of one of the old timey swimsuits, but I'm too lazy to do the search.

Only if you are the one wearing it. I haven't had my morning laugh yet.

I like the idea though. Maybe we could do a study to check for coorelation between a cultures recognition and granting of basic human rights (and which rights are granted) and the percentage of skin covered by bathing suits.

We'd have to include some sort of factor to account for the total amount of skin available to be shown. I believe there has been an increase in the last couple decades. Such is the hazard of living in a land of plenty.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley