Hausse 0 #101 September 1, 2007 Very interesting thread even though it made me think most of the people which were pro SUV live ether in the desert, on top of a mountain with 2foot snow year round or at some place were you seriously need a car (I don't say SUV on purpose here because a lot of SUV's are not very practical off-road) which is able to drive on terrain like that and crash their car at least 5 times a year. I'm coming from Switzerland (yes the country with the really big mountains and a LOT of snow) and I don't know one person which uses a pickup truck (I'm not even sure if they are legal in Switzerland) but I know quite a few people who drive SUV's (mostly BMW's) but NONE of them drives it because he needs it but out of comfort. I used to drive a Fiat Uno Convertable: http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/3167/pict0265py1.jpg The funny thing is I haven't been stuck once (I always have snow chains in it) and I love snowboarding so I was in the mountains a lot and we have a lot of snow. I would dear say that all of the people which say they need a SUV for off roading are just not good enough driver to drive a smaller cars off-road.For the safety reason: There were 75 dead people per 1 million in Switzerland while the US had 147 (http://www.bfu.ch/forschung/statistik/statistik_2005/BFU_2005_D_30.pdf). Unfortunately I could not find a statistic about how many cars in Switzerland are SUV’s and trucks but I can assure you it’s a lot less. Even though there might not be a obvious connection, if SUV’s were so much safer, chances are that the US would not have double as many deads. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #102 September 3, 2007 QuoteI would dear say that all of the people which say they need a SUV for off roading are just not good enough driver to drive a smaller cars off-road. Good driving can't overcome physics. If you have a 12-inch high rock ledge to get over, and the front of your car only has 6-inches of ground clearance, then all the good driving in the world ain't gonna get you over that ledge. Heck, some cars are so low that they even bottom out going over speed bumps in parking lots. You won't find an SUV doing that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,819 #103 September 3, 2007 QuoteQuoteI would dear say that all of the people which say they need a SUV for off roading are just not good enough driver to drive a smaller cars off-road. Good driving can't overcome physics. If you have a 12-inch high rock ledge to get over, and the front of your car only has 6-inches of ground clearance, then all the good driving in the world ain't gonna get you over that ledge. Heck, some cars are so low that they even bottom out going over speed bumps in parking lots. You won't find an SUV doing that. I don't see too many rock ledges challenging the thousands of FSUVs (TM) commuting into Chicago every morning. None in the Country Club parking lot, either. FSUV (TM): Fashion Statement Utility Vehicle. (Saw one upside down by the side of I80 on my way home from the DZ today. No curves, no other vehicle involved, dry road. WTF?)... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #104 September 3, 2007 Similar analogy: Mooneys aren't needed in private aviation ... a Piper Cub is more than suitable for the type of flying most private pilots do.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,691 #105 September 3, 2007 >If you have a 12-inch high rock ledge to get over, and the front of your >car only has 6-inches of ground clearance, then all the good driving in the >world ain't gonna get you over that ledge. Yep. And if you're driving over 12 inch rock ledges, then a high clearance SUV (a real one, not the standard front wheel drive, cushy suspension type) is an appropriate vehicle. If you're driving on highways and side streets to get to work every day, other vehicles are more appropriate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hausse 0 #106 September 3, 2007 I never had to drive over a 12" stone ledge in my live and I made 12'000 miles since january. And I'm also pretty positiv that I won't have to do it in a long time. So taking that into consideration for which car to buy seems kind of riddicculus when you are not doing it at least once a week... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,819 #107 September 4, 2007 QuoteSimilar analogy: Mooneys aren't needed in private aviation ... a Piper Cub is more than suitable for the type of flying most private pilots do. Apparently you know very little about general aviation.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #108 September 4, 2007 QuoteQuoteSimilar analogy: Mooneys aren't needed in private aviation ... a Piper Cub is more than suitable for the type of flying most private pilots do. Apparently you know very little about general aviation. Prove that you HAVE to have that Mooney, then.... the analogy is QUITE appropriate to the discussion. Also please note I'm talking about private pilots, not corporate pilots.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,819 #109 September 4, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteSimilar analogy: Mooneys aren't needed in private aviation ... a Piper Cub is more than suitable for the type of flying most private pilots do. Apparently you know very little about general aviation. Prove that you HAVE to have that Mooney, then.... the analogy is QUITE appropriate to the discussion. Also please note I'm talking about private pilots, not corporate pilots. A Mooney gets better gas mileage than a Piper Cub and the overwhelming majority of FSUVs(TM). Why not stick to what you know about.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #110 September 4, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteSimilar analogy: Mooneys aren't needed in private aviation ... a Piper Cub is more than suitable for the type of flying most private pilots do. Apparently you know very little about general aviation. Prove that you HAVE to have that Mooney, then.... the analogy is QUITE appropriate to the discussion. Also please note I'm talking about private pilots, not corporate pilots. A Mooney gets better gas mileage than a Piper Cub and the overwhelming majority of FSUVs(TM). Why not stick to what you know about. Yay for the Mooney....you're still throwing up strawmen to avoid the issue. Whether *YOU* feel the vehicle choice is appropriate or not has ZERO bearing on the issue.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,819 #111 September 4, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteSimilar analogy: Mooneys aren't needed in private aviation ... a Piper Cub is more than suitable for the type of flying most private pilots do. Apparently you know very little about general aviation. Prove that you HAVE to have that Mooney, then.... the analogy is QUITE appropriate to the discussion. Also please note I'm talking about private pilots, not corporate pilots. A Mooney gets better gas mileage than a Piper Cub and the overwhelming majority of FSUVs(TM). Why not stick to what you know about. Yay for the Mooney....you're still throwing up strawmen to avoid the issue. Whether *YOU* feel the vehicle choice is appropriate or not has ZERO bearing on the issue. WHO brought up the aviation strawman - why, it was mnealtx! "Mooneys aren't needed in private aviation ... a Piper Cub is more than suitable for the type of flying most private pilots do. " What exactly is this supposed to mean, then, except that you have no clue about the mission profile of various types of aircraft?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #112 September 4, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteSimilar analogy: Mooneys aren't needed in private aviation ... a Piper Cub is more than suitable for the type of flying most private pilots do. Apparently you know very little about general aviation. Prove that you HAVE to have that Mooney, then.... the analogy is QUITE appropriate to the discussion. Also please note I'm talking about private pilots, not corporate pilots. A Mooney gets better gas mileage than a Piper Cub and the overwhelming majority of FSUVs(TM). Why not stick to what you know about. Yay for the Mooney....you're still throwing up strawmen to avoid the issue. Whether *YOU* feel the vehicle choice is appropriate or not has ZERO bearing on the issue. WHO brought up the aviation strawman - why, it was mnealtx! "Mooneys aren't needed in private aviation ... a Piper Cub is more than suitable for the type of flying most private pilots do. " What exactly is this supposed to mean, then, except that you have no clue about the mission profile of various types of aircraft? Actually, YOU are the one that brought up the 'suitability' issue, saying that large SUVs are "unsuited" to cramped city parking. When I made a comparison between your Mooney and the smaller Piper Cub, you tried to deflect the line of reasoning by bringing up mileage. Try again.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,691 #113 September 4, 2007 >a Piper Cub is more than suitable for the type of flying most private pilots do. Mooney Ovation 2: 190kts cruise 2400 mile range (long range tanks) 20,000 foot ceiling 1100 lbs useful load 19 lbs/sq ft wing loading (speaks to safety in turbulence) IFR capable J3 Cub: 65kts cruise 190 mile range 11,500 foot ceiling 450 lbs useful load 6.8 lbs/sq ft wing loading not IFR capable So let's translate this to car specs: Ford Explorer: 107mph top speed 284 mile range 1025lbs max load mnealTX strawman car: (as different from the Ford Explorer as the Ovation is from the Cub) 36mph max speed 22 mile range 419 lbs max load I will readily agree that such a car would be useless. Now let's look at a REAL car, say a Prius: 100mph max speed 490 mile range 830lbs max load So you would have a good argument if cars were as different from each other as Mooneys are from Cubs. They're not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #114 September 5, 2007 Quote Good driving can't overcome physics. If you have a 12-inch high rock ledge to get over, and the front of your car only has 6-inches of ground clearance, then all the good driving in the world ain't gonna get you over that ledge. Heck, some cars are so low that they even bottom out going over speed bumps in parking lots. You won't find an SUV doing that. you mean like the Ford Explorer? Long the most popular SUV, it's ground clearance, approach and departure angles were pretty horrible. In reality it was a minivan with 4wd, nothing more. Very few of the SUVs sold will clear that 12 inch ledge that is in front of everyone's driveway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #115 September 5, 2007 QuoteI'm coming from Switzerland (yes the country with the really big mountains and a LOT of snow) and I don't know one person which uses a pickup truck (I'm not even sure if they are legal in Switzerland) but I know quite a few people who drive SUV's (mostly BMW's) but NONE of them drives it because he needs it but out of comfort. Very few Americans live in those conditions year round. Those that do can manage with most cars. But us coast dwellers that drive up to ski a few weekends a year do benefit from awd vehicles and it's not practical for us to install snow tires like you probably do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,819 #116 September 5, 2007 QuoteQuote Good driving can't overcome physics. If you have a 12-inch high rock ledge to get over, and the front of your car only has 6-inches of ground clearance, then all the good driving in the world ain't gonna get you over that ledge. Heck, some cars are so low that they even bottom out going over speed bumps in parking lots. You won't find an SUV doing that. you mean like the Ford Explorer? Long the most popular SUV, it's ground clearance, approach and departure angles were pretty horrible. In reality it was a minivan with 4wd, nothing more. Very few of the SUVs sold will clear that 12 inch ledge that is in front of everyone's driveway. One of my colleagues has a FSUV(tm) that doesn't actually have 4wd at all. He got it because his wife's friends "all have SUVs".... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #117 September 5, 2007 QuoteOne of my colleagues has a FSUV(tm) that doesn't actually have 4wd at all. He got it because his wife's friends "all have SUVs". Now THAT is a stupid reason...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hausse 0 #118 September 5, 2007 QuoteQuoteI'm coming from Switzerland (yes the country with the really big mountains and a LOT of snow) and I don't know one person which uses a pickup truck (I'm not even sure if they are legal in Switzerland) but I know quite a few people who drive SUV's (mostly BMW's) but NONE of them drives it because he needs it but out of comfort. Very few Americans live in those conditions year round. Those that do can manage with most cars. But us coast dwellers that drive up to ski a few weekends a year do benefit from awd vehicles and it's not practical for us to install snow tires like you probably do. Okey you have a point in the snow tires. But I bet I could get up onto every mountain with acceptable streets with a normal car, normal tires and a good set of snow chains (it's not gonna kill you putting them on twiece a year) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #119 September 5, 2007 Quote But I bet I could get up onto every mountain with acceptable streets with a normal car, normal tires and a good set of snow chains (it's not gonna kill you putting them on twiece a year) It's like packing a chute once a year - lot harder than when you do it often. California has chain installers that make really good money Saturday mornings when the snow is falling. Even better than packers, I think, thought they might get to charge $20 instead of 5-7. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,691 #120 September 5, 2007 >But I bet I could get up onto every mountain with acceptable streets with >a normal car, normal tires and a good set of snow chains . . . Yep. We went skiing in Alta once; rented a Subaru Legacy (full time 4wd, small station wagon.) There was a storm forecast so we were eager to get there. We started out in a long line of cars, trucks, SUV's and buses. Soon the pickups were pulling over to fuss with chains, and shortly after the SUV's started sliding all over the road. Well, traffic slowed down, the storm got worse, and that made traffic slow down more etc etc. Plus which it was on a fairly steep road, and occasionally someone would just start creeping backwards and be unable to stop. After a while other drivers were getting out and telling these people to get off the road before they slid backwards into someone else. Almost a few fights that day ("I'm not getting my Excursion off the road so your little car can pass me!") By the time we got to the top only about 1/3 of the people were still on the road - and they were the buses (with chains and experienced drivers) the 4WD cars/station wagons and dedicated snow vehicles (4WD trucks with four snow tires.) All the SUV's with regular tires (especially the 2WD ones) were stuck in the snow somewhere. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 280 #121 September 5, 2007 I did have to laugh - my dad lives in the Peak District in the UK (for those of you who don't know its a nice hilly, scenic area that gets pretty tricky to travel round in the winter). His wife has a subaru Justy. (a tiny knackered old 4wd hatchback). It was great fun on a snowy day last winter driving past all the rangerover/ bmw/ jeep SUV's on their low profile tyres and alloy wheels when they were stuck by the side of the road with the owners on mobile phones tyring to get help!.Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites