Royd 0 #26 August 25, 2007 Quote In his culture, dog fighting is not taboo. In his mind, based on his culture, he did nothing wrong[rep Neither is pimping a whore, or putting a cap in someone over a couple of rocks of crack.What you are telling us is, here is a man who has been raised to a high echelon in our society, due to his athletic talent, making more money in a few years than most of us will ever see, and he should still get a pass because he's..........black. How about stupid? Does he get a pass for that, also. Are you saying that some gangbanger shouldn't go to jail for knocking over the convienence store because it's just part of his culture? He's been taught that it's an easy way to get money. Let's face it, the man didn't look at the big picture or the long road. He got caught up in the fame and fortune, surrounded himself with idiots who would give him kudos and now he is paying the price. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Duckwater 0 #27 August 25, 2007 QuoteLet's face it, the man didn't look at the big picture or the long road. He got caught up in the fame and fortune, surrounded himself with idiots who would give him kudos and now he is paying the price. Agreed 100%...But I think the price is astronomically too high. It also identifies a lack of leadership in the Falcons. I mean, if I was the owner, I would have realized how dangerous all that money would be in a young mans pocket and insisted on some oversight. Any young man would be dangerous with all that money. And, I dont think what he did is unforgiveable. Rape, Assault, crimes that hurt others, thats what I have no tolerance for. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
willard 0 #28 August 25, 2007 Maybe your "bowhunter" friend should find a different hobby. He obviously isn't very good at bowhunting. I hunted with a bow for many years, taking many deer and a couple bear, as well as untold small game. Never lost one that I hit. Trying to justify the legality or illegality of an action based on the status of another activity does not make sense. It is legal to drive 65 mph on a crowded freeway, yet it is illegal to drive over 55 on a barren stretch of two lane highway (here in Ohio). Mike Vick broke the law. He must pay the price for breaking the law. The penalty he will pay goes far beyond anything the courts will impose. The Falcons are already trying to reclaim $22 million from his signing bonus, something that was conditional upon his abiding by the law and being a respectable representative of the organization. As far as calf roping, that competition is constantly under fire from all sides and most likely will not be around much longer. I, for one, will not miss it. But bullriding is a true man-beast sport. Once the rider is thrown he is fair game for the bull. It has been said that the safest place is on the bulls back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Duckwater 0 #29 August 25, 2007 I question "The Law" all the time. I never take it as the gospel. Here in Texas, we are excecuting a man on the 30th for Capital Murder when he was far away from the crime and didnt pull the trigger. Hey...its the "Law" The "Law" put a 17 yr old in jail for consentual oral sex with a 15 yr old. the "LAW" is flawed in many cases. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richards 0 #30 August 25, 2007 QuoteWe Americans, as a whole, are categorically ignorant of any culture other than our own, including those that exist in our own country. Many can’t distinguish between Asian cultures, confuse Hindus with Muslims and are for the most part completely ignorant concerning global cultures. When I was in the Caribbean getting away from the cold Canadian winter, there was a boatload of Japanese tourists (yes the majority were actually japanese and not just oriental) at the bar I was at. I spoke to the one Korean guy and mistook him for a Japanese person. He ripped my head off. Upon finishing his rant he followed up with this parting shot...."You Americans are so ignorant". I am not making this up. QuoteWe must all remember that everyone is a product of their environment. If someone is born in Iran, they will most likely be a Muslim and be taught to hate America. If that same person were born in Small Town Alabama, he would most likely fit the stereotype of that culture. Yes and so long as they are mentally competent adults theyare fully responsible for their actions. QuoteIf Michael Vick was brought up in a culture that promotes dog fights as accepted activities, then he is not automatically a villain or a criminal for also considering it accepted. No. He is a criminal for breaking the law. QuoteIllegal you say? That Office Super Bowl pool you contribute to is also illegal gambling. Presumption. I do not do that. QuoteI would like to know how Michael Vick has treated fellow humans in his lifetime. Irrelevant. He is not being charged with crimes against humanity. QuoteIf another culture has decided to torture an animal your culture deems sacred, don’t judge. I don't. So long as they do that in their own country. QuoteAn animal is an animal. In India, the cow is sacred; here we grind it up for lunch. And if I was in India I would not kill a cow. QuotePit Bulls account for the majority of dog mauling deaths. Where is the outcry when a Pit Bull mauls an infant? I find it funny how all these people are rallying around an animal they would never let their kids near. There is plenty of outcry when a pitbull mauls a kid. Many have called for the banning of pitbulls. When an animal is subject to needles cruelty, the fact that it's breed has a bad reputation does not in any way mitigate the cruelty of the act. We are a civilised society and should not be needlessly cruel to dumb animals. This is not about imposing my values on another culture. If another country likes eating dogs that is their business. Here we have animal cruelty laws and I expect people to abide by them or pay the price. QuoteMinks would probably be extinct if people didn’t want coats. ??????????????????????? QuoteI hate to admit this, but the vilification of Michael Vick is racism. Was wondering when the "R" word would pop up. Oh I forgot...every black man in trouble with the law is somehow a victim of race. OJ Simpson, Mike tyson, Michael jackson.....etc. They are all poor little misunderstood victims who are being oppressed by us insecure hatefull white-boys who apparently go into a tailspin every time we see a black man driving a better car then us or dating a white woman. Only now do I see this grand conspiracy against the black man. Wow....are we evil or what? QuoteWe vilify that culture because we don’t understand it or even want to admit it exists. We???? QuoteIgnorance and judgementalism of a culture we don’t understand is racism, pure and simple. Ignorance and racism are not the same thing even if they often go hand in hand. Judgementalism is not racism. I personally think the act of female genital mutilation (aka circumcision) is horrible and cruel. Am I racist for that? QuoteSending Michael Vick to prison and ruining his career over this is ludicrous. No It's not. It is the law. Do the crime do the time. QuoteYou don’t end racism by dividing two cultures even further by criminalizing parts of one culture. This case is not about racism. It's about cruelty to animals. QuoteIt further rings of racism that a commonly African American pastime is a Felony and a Federal Offense. Are you on Jesse Jacksons payroll??? QuoteWhere were all the courthouse screamers when the rapist or the child molester was brought into the same Atlanta courthouse the day before? I suspect if you took a poll on this forum, you would find that people hear would want heavier sentences for a molester than a dog fighter. Do you honestly beleive that holding a dog fight is more offensive to the average american than molesting a child? QuoteEducation is the only answer. We must educate ourselves and learn about other cultures and combat the cultural ignorance that has infested this country like a cancer. Education is the answer. Dumb shits like Michael Vick should become educated in our laws. It is not my responsibility to ponder endlessly about why some people cannot abide by our laws. QuoteMichael Vick is a product of his environment. He is an adult who is responsible for his actions. QuoteIn his culture, what he did was not wrong. If an immigrant family kills their daughter here in an "honour killing" should I let them off the hook and "educate myself" about their culture instead? No. Our laws their responsibility. QuoteInstead of shunning him, we should give him a chance to educate all of our cultures about each other. There is a true opportunity for change and progress here. We will discard it by sending him to prison which will widen the gap between our cultures even further With all due respect, I cannot possibly disagree with you more. My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within. 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steveorino 7 #31 August 25, 2007 Part of what you say is true. Many taboos are cultural. In the USA we have many cultures. In those cultures it may be acceptable to do certain things, however in the culture at large it is not. For instance in many cultures it may be okay to have little boys and girls be the acceptable resolution to someone's sexual appetite. In the American culture at large it is not. IMHO, the culture at large does (and most often should win out) Who among us here would say, "Aw, it is okay if we allow prostitution of a 10 year old boy, after all in some counties we allow the prostitution of 18 year olds." If the culture at large is wrong, change it. We did for women in the turn of the century and for blacks in 60s (1860s & 1960s) But don't say it is wrong to judge a man's actions because it was within his cultural norm. if we do that we are opening a whole new can of worms. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casurf1978 0 #32 August 25, 2007 QuoteLet's face it, the man didn't look at the big picture or the long road. He got caught up in the fame and fortune, surrounded himself with idiots who would give him kudos and now he is paying the price. I'm calling BS on this one. He knew what he was doing was wrong and went to great lengths to conceal these activities. Lets stop playing the 'oh I'm a celebrity and so overwhelmed with fame and fortune that I cant distinguish right from wrong' bs. I can understand if a kid like Daniel Radcliffe gets caught up in all that, he's only 17, but a 27yo adult. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Duckwater 0 #33 August 25, 2007 Quote ...."You Americans are so ignorant". I am not making this up. Are you sure he wasnt French??? Quote Yes and so long as they are mentally competent adults theyare fully responsible for their actions. I that man is taught since birth that laws are just to incarcerate blacks and that Cat Juggling is Kosher, he wont know any better. Quote No. He is a criminal for breaking the law. The law is nuts. Child molesters get less punishment. Quote Irrelevant. He is not being charged with crimes against humanity. Um...what human was harmed? Quote I don't. So long as they do that in their own country. There are vastly diverse and different cultures here in the US. Quote Are you on Jesse Jacksons payroll??? Part of the problem is that blacks allow Jackson to define what is racist. Calling someone a HO is not racist. Having substandard education and jail terms for crimes commonly comitted by blacks MUCH more severe than similar "white" crimes is OBVIOUSLY racist. No one adresses that. Jackson is the KKK's best friend. He keeps the masses focused on BS, not real issues. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richards 0 #34 August 25, 2007 Quote Quote ***...."You Americans are so ignorant". I am not making this up. Are you sure he wasnt French??? No. I just felt like pointing out that he had just made the same honest mistake that he was so offended at me making. To most people outside North America there are no distinguishing characteristics between Americans and Canadians, and I acept that. Why then am I considered ignorant if I mistake chinese vs korean, indian vs Pakistani, Australian vs New Zealander...etc. Quote ***Yes and so long as they are mentally competent adults theyare fully responsible for their actions. I that man is taught since birth that laws are just to incarcerate blacks and that Cat Juggling is Kosher, he wont know any better. Maybe if you show how dog fighting is truly accepted by a large portion of american culture I might beleive he acted in ignorance. Quote ***No. He is a criminal for breaking the law. The law is nuts. Child molesters get less punishment. I hope you are wrong. I suspect you are but if not, then by all means I would like to see a comparatives study showing sentences for molestation vs dog fighting. Quote ***Irrelevant. He is not being charged with crimes against humanity. Um...what human was harmed? None. Dogs were, and that is why his treatment of humans is irrelevant in his animal cruelty case. Quote ***I don't. So long as they do that in their own country. There are vastly diverse and different cultures here in the US. To the point where large segments of the polulation are not aware of major laws? Let's not forget that by being a pro athlete he has had exposure to cultures outside his little micro culture. If he was not aware it was illegal then why was he not open with everyone about it. Quote Having substandard education and jail terms for crimes commonly comitted by blacks MUCH more severe than similar "white" crimes is OBVIOUSLY racist. What about laws that make it an even bigger offence (a hate crime) if your victim was a minority? Quote No one adresses that. Jackson is the KKK's best friend. He keeps the masses focused on BS, not real issues. Agreed. What is his endgame? My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richards 0 #35 August 25, 2007 QuoteI mean, if I was the owner, I would have realized how dangerous all that money would be in a young mans pocket and insisted on some oversight. How old was this guy? You cannot force oversight onto an adult. Their money is their money. My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sv3n 0 #36 August 25, 2007 QuoteTo me, THIS GUY IS THE TRUE VILLAN. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/12/national/main301135.shtml So since this guy killed just one dog and is getting three years........since Vick's property contained just shy of 3 dozen dogs how many years should he get?...and you're in violation of your face! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #37 August 26, 2007 QuoteI hate to admit this, but the vilification of Michael Vick is racism. I usually roll my eyes when the race card is played but this time, it fits. We are ignorant of a significant culture that exists in America. We vilify that culture because we don’t understand it or even want to admit it exists. Ignorance and judgementalism of a culture we don’t understand is racism, pure and simple. I gotta call BS on this one.... I do NOT want to understand a "culture" that takes sadism to new lows. For a "human" being to torture animals in this way is reprehensible. This is the worst form of sadism we have remaining.....in our supposedly enlightened society. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Duckwater 0 #38 August 26, 2007 Vick owned all his dogs and they certainly were not pets. The other guy threw someone else's property, a beloved pet and killed it in front of her.I cant imagine the anguish. Did anyone love the beasts that Vic owned? No. NOT one person was affected in this. If he had goats he could have killed them.....A PIT BULL is not a 'pet'. I think they should all be banned as pets. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #39 August 26, 2007 Let's face it, the man didn't look at the big picture or the long road. He got caught up in the fame and fortune, surrounded himself with idiots who would give him kudos and now he is paying the price. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- QuoteI'm calling BS on this one. He knew what he was doing was wrong and went to great lengths to conceal these activities. Lets stop playing the 'oh I'm a celebrity and so overwhelmed with fame and fortune that I cant distinguish right from wrong' bs. I can understand if a kid like Daniel Radcliffe gets caught up in all that, he's only 17, but a 27yo adult.I'm not making excuses for him or giving him a pass. If you were sitting on potentially several million dollars and all you had to do was toe the line for ten years, would you? He just thought that he was bulletproof. He was the BMOC, the HNIC. He knew that what he was doing was illegal or he wouldn't have gone to such lengths to hide it, but I doubt that he thought he would ever be caught. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eflynn 0 #40 August 26, 2007 You make some interesting points but as a black man let me explain to you, and to anyone else who's reading this, something very important... Dog fighting is NOT part of black culture. If you meant by saying "his culture" his immediate surroundings and who and where he grew up, then maybe. But if you were to corral all the people involved with dog fighting together you'd have far more faces that looked like yours than his. There's actually a magazine that comes out quarterly that's all about dogfighting. The same way we have Parachutist, GQ, Maxim, Radio Controlled Car Action, there's a publication that shows people posing with their dogs, and articles about how to make your dog more competitive. I found the notion of it existing hard to believe until this guy I know from Alabama showed it to me. Every face next to a dog in the magazine was a white one. It's just something that's looked past in a lot of places. It's almost a tradition of sorts like making moonshine or a "liquor store" in someone's house that sells alcohol on Sundays. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headoverheels 292 #41 August 26, 2007 I don't care about any of this, but I did find the Michael Vick dog chew toy pretty funny. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sv3n 0 #42 August 26, 2007 QuoteVick owned all his dogs and they certainly were not pets. The other guy threw someone else's property, a beloved pet and killed it in front of her.I cant imagine the anguish. Did anyone love the beasts that Vic owned? No. NOT one person was affected in this. If he had goats he could have killed them.....A PIT BULL is not a 'pet'. I think they should all be banned as pets. yup the pic http://fanaticking.com/photos/Michael_Vick_Dog.jpg definitely doesn't look like a pet.......wake up dude, the guy is a sadist. As far as banning pitbulls..........that's bs. I've personally played with several pits that were little babies at the age of 3 and 4. While some breeds are naturally more aggressive than others..........it's really all about how they're raised. You'll find mean dogs in all the different breeds............the problems with pits is that a lot of idiots that are getting them are getting them because they want a "bad ass" dog and they aren't responsible owners........they don't take the time to properly train them or socialize them. As the video in one of the earlier posts showed, all different breeds are used for dog fighting. You keep poking a dog enough times with a cattleprod, eventually that dog is gonna want to bite something...then you throw it in a pit with another dog who's had the same treatment. The amount of time and planning that goes into raising and repetively beating these animals............the guy had time to think about what he was doing. They found close to 36 dogs burried.........that's a lot of chances to realize his mistakes and correct them. He tried to hide it, he also lied about it.................part of his contract was to stay out of trouble and he didn't do that. This isn't a race thing, he broke the law.........just a little bit shy of 36 times and that doesn't even include the gambling.....that's just killing the dogs....and you're in violation of your face! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #43 August 26, 2007 Hey bite me. People can express themselves about the conditions of their oppression. Dumb animals cannot. I wish to hell that Nelson Mandela would weigh in on this, I think he has the stature to clear the air on this problem. A man who spent 25 years busting rocks in prison might be able to tell his own people to knock it the fuck off and stop killing dogs. Jesus Christ anyway.... Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Duckwater 0 #44 August 26, 2007 Where do we draw the line on what animals are OK to torture (baby cows) and what ones are not. (Pit Bulls and Harp Seals) Quite Illogically, the animals we deem worthy of torture for our entertainment are the most docile. I think mosquitos are worthy of some electrodes on their balls. I hate them. Our laws make no logical sense in chosing Dogs as the Sacred Cow, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
willard 0 #45 August 26, 2007 QuoteI question "The Law" all the time. I never take it as the gospel. Here in Texas, we are excecuting a man on the 30th for Capital Murder when he was far away from the crime and didnt pull the trigger. Hey...its the "Law" The "Law" put a 17 yr old in jail for consentual oral sex with a 15 yr old. So, do you feel the breeding and training of dogs for the purpose of dog fights, and the dog fights themselves, should be legal or illegal? Forget what else is legal/illegal, focus just on the dog fights. the "LAW" is flawed in many cases. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflybella 0 #46 August 26, 2007 QuoteWhere do we draw the line on what animals are OK to torture (baby cows) and what ones are not. (Pit Bulls and Harp Seals) Quite Illogically, the animals we deem worthy of torture for our entertainment are the most docile. I think mosquitos are worthy of some electrodes on their balls. I hate them. Our laws make no logical sense in chosing Dogs as the Sacred Cow, I agree wholeheartedly. Check out any sites related to CAFOs in this country to find animal cruelty and torture at it's worst. But my logic takes me the other way. We shouldn't let one guy off - we should ban animal cruelty in all it's forms. Whether or not an animal is loved by one person should NOT be the deciding factor in whether it's torture or cruelty. Have a look at any undercover slaughterhouse footage and tell me anyone loves those animals - then tell me that' shouldn't be illegal. Animals are sentient beings not to be exploited. Period. I personally believe something small inside all of us is hurt when we hear of or see animal cruelty. How many of you pipe up when a guy beats a puppy to death? It's just that on a larger scale (such as factory farming) it's too much to comprehend. It has to hit home, it has to become personal for most of us to care. The animals "have to be loved by someone" for it to matter. That's why Vick is now the scapegoat. On some level he's paying for something we all abhor but can't be bothered in daily life to do anything about. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,174 #47 August 26, 2007 Here is a story about cockfighting from a few months ago in the Houston Press. Is cockfighting any different from dogfighting? It's wrong, but being famous doesn't make it more wrong. And being dogs doesn't make it worse than sexual assault, even if she was dressed hot , or fighting, even if he was insulting. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eflynn 0 #48 August 26, 2007 I'm not sure why you posed those questions to me but I'll answer. I think cockfighting is just as wrong as dog fighting. I do however think it's not taken as seriously simply because Americans eat chickens all the time and the same can't be said for dogs. I've always thought the "sport" or roping a calf, dragging it around the ring, throwing it down and roping its legs together was extremely cruel as well. As far as comparing it to crimes or actions committed against other humans, I think animals are looked at as defenseless where as humans aren't. A transgression is a transgression but there are different levels and thus different types of consequences. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richards 0 #49 August 26, 2007 QuoteA PIT BULL is not a 'pet'. I think they should all be banned as pets. Pitbulls are not the problem. The problem is the kind of idiot that often seems to want to own one (not an attack on those who just like the breed of dog). How many times do you see a pitbull with an owner who looks like the kind of guy you would want to meet alone in a dark alley? All to frequently its some thug or wannabee tough guy who is deliberately encouraging aggressive behaviour in the dog because having a psycho dog makes him feel like he has a bigger dick. A good owner could turn a pitbull into a great pet and a shitbird owner could turn an irish setter into a menace. Don't ban pitbulls, guns..etc; hold idiots responsible for their actions. My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,475 #50 August 26, 2007 >I guess you are OK with your local Mexican-American community building a >bull fighting ring down by the ball diamond. There IS a bullfighting ring down by the beach here. I don't like bullfighting and I wouldn't go to that arena - but it's their decision, not mine. >Should standards for wife beating, female circumcision and honour killing >also be variable depending on someone's upbringing? Yes - if you think that dogs have the same rights as humans. I don't think they do. They're animals. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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>bull fighting ring down by the ball diamond.
There IS a bullfighting ring down by the beach here. I don't like bullfighting and I wouldn't go to that arena - but it's their decision, not mine.
>Should standards for wife beating, female circumcision and honour killing
>also be variable depending on someone's upbringing?
Yes - if you think that dogs have the same rights as humans. I don't think they do. They're animals.
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