Guns and crime

[trigger 0]

I know the %'s are very small on the scale of things but like i said i'm of the opinion if you arm yourself to protect yourself from a threat the threat[criminals] will take measures to to counteract your defense.

i.e shoot first before you have a chance to access your weapon.

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[mnealtx 0]

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Like you say it's just an opinion but what makes you feel you have a need to arm yourself is your neighborhood a warzone.
Also if i was a criminal in the US given the right to defend philospthopy i'd remove the threat of being killed by shooting you first and then robbing you blind.
Point is as i see it two way street the criminals feel they must arm themselfs just as much as you do and that can't be good.

It comes down to force - if you want me to do something, you have two ways to ensure that behavior: reasoning, or force. Now - within the spectrum of 'force', you have many different levels, from verbal threats up to physical harm. If you no longer have the option of force, then you have no way to ensure my behavior.

A criminal is going to try to have overwhelming force from the outset. Why you would WANT to allow this and count on the criminal's good graces to escape harm is beyond me.

"Give them what they want" - when does THAT spectrum end? With your wallet? Your car? Your wife's/daughter's body? YOUR body? Your wife's/daughter's life? YOUR life?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[birdlike 0]

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Like you say it's just an opinion but what makes you feel you have a need to arm yourself is your neighborhood a warzone.

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In short, Yes

When TEN uncivilized inner city "kids" barge in with masks and guns and gang-rape a woman and her 12-year-old son, it's pretty much a war zone. Read the website for The Palm Beach Post once in a while online, you'll see what we deal with here, along with politicos and police who are powerless or unwilling to fix it.

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Also if i was a criminal in the US given the right to defend philospthopy i'd remove the threat of being killed by shooting you first and then robbing you blind.

Boy, it really begins to seem like all you advocate is rolling over for the criminals.

If we don't fight them, they get to take what's ours with our cooperation.

If we do fight them, they'll just kill us preemptively and take our stuff just the same.

Okay. What do you think we should do? OH, I remember, "we need more police."

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[mnealtx 0]

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I know the %'s are very small on the scale of things but like i said i'm of the opinion if you arm yourself to protect yourself from a threat the threat[criminals] will take measures to to counteract your defense.

i.e shoot first before you have a chance to access your weapon.

Your premise is incorrect, or you would see criminals shooting up police stations to get THEIR guns, or gunshops to rob them.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[trigger 0]

I can understand your point,but how common is the scenario you describe.
I'm of the opinion that most crime is about money as dirty as that.
And in a society that arms itself with a gun you can only expect the worse from the criminals that infest that society as i said its kill or be killed where guns are involved.

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[trigger 0]

Don't get me wrong i'm all for sadistically torturing criminals to death wherever they may be.
Does the tragic Palm beach article happen to mention wether or not the household held a firearm or not.

Dosn't really matter tho because i dont care who you are there's not alot anyone could have done vs the power of 12.

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[mnealtx 0]

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I can understand your point,but how common is the scenario you describe.
I'm of the opinion that most crime is about money as dirty as that.
And in a society that arms itself with a gun you can only expect the worse from the criminals that infest that society as i said its kill or be killed where guns are involved.

Ok...you're saying that here in the US, the criminals are armed because the citizens are... so why are criminals in the UK still arming themselves? Your theory doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rushmc 18]

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Like you say it's just an opinion but what makes you feel you have a need to arm yourself is your neighborhood a warzone.
Also if i was a criminal in the US given the right to defend philospthopy i'd remove the threat of being killed by shooting you first and then robbing you blind.
Point is as i see it two way street the criminals feel they must arm themselfs just as much as you do and that can't be good.

Oh ya!!! here we go, typical liberial leftt wing put words in you mouth, create a senario where I can't loose the debate shit.

Thank You!! I mean it. We all know now perfectly where you are coming from. Thanks again

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

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I know the %'s are very small on the scale of things but like i said i'm of the opinion if you arm yourself to protect yourself from a threat the threat[criminals] will take measures to to counteract your defense.

i.e shoot first before you have a chance to access your weapon.

YA, NOW THE FUCKING CRIMIANLS ARE THE VICTIMS
I should not own/get a gun cause a criminal might think 'the person/family I am goint to rob has a gun so I need one to make things even"!!!!! WTF Dam this is good stuff

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[nanook 1]

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I just believe that the socio-economic aspect is more fuel for the fire rather than the whole story. Put the would-be criminal in a better position, he or she may have less desire to commit the crime.

No no no no no.

Look, having a crappy life situation or not being able to make much money at a job is NOT a justification to go robbing people or stealing what's not yours.

So I don't want to hear, "Oh, the only reason I robbed and stole was because my economic status was in the gutter." SO? DEAL with it. Make it better. But don't you dare act as though simply because you don't have luxuries and leisure that you're ENTITLED to TAKE it without EARNING it.

So this bullshit about how we need to "put the would-be criminal in a better position" is really just succumbing to his extortion scheme: "GIVE me success, or I'll make myself into a criminal problem for you to deal with." No no no no no. You're not going to get me to dig into my OWN pocket to give you what I EARNED just because if I don't you'll go and be a criminal. Time to grow up and realize you're not entitled to success, you have to work for it.

What happens if we "put the would-be criminal in a better position" and he still is greedy and still wants more? This is like negotiating with terrorists or paying kidnapers ransom. Where does it end? Once you open the door to paying, you'll be bled dry, 'cause they'll know they can continually threaten you and you'll keep forking over.

Errr. . .Ummm....What?

You missed the point big time. My input has nothing to do with what to do to criminals, it was the why they commit crimes. I do not mean for the passage "put the criminal in a better position" to be read in a literal and how-to-fix-them sense, I meant it as a "for Example".

_____________________________

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[juanesky 0]

It reads like a Disney movie transcript . I remember one perv once said, but is your duty to run!!!.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[trigger 0]

Like i said in a previous post the UK gun problem seems to be predominately drug/gang related and i think you'll find it hard to come across a case in the uk where firearms have been used in a household burglary for example,fortunately or not guns appear to be the preserve of
the stupid 17yr old wanna be innercity gangsters and serious 'brinks matt'big risk,big reward type criminals.
If someone is so much as suspected of being in possession of an illegally held firearm in general the're going to find themselves in shit creek when so19 come a knocking..

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[trigger 0]

YEP...thats exactly what you have...criminals taking things to the extreme resulting in loss of life on both sides of the coin.

Hope sleep with that thing under your pillow..hope its big enough and more importantly i sincerely hope your hard enough should shit ever come a crawling.

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[birdlike 0]

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I know the %'s are very small on the scale of things but like i said i'm of the opinion if you arm yourself to protect yourself from a threat the threat[criminals] will take measures to to counteract your defense.

i.e shoot first before you have a chance to access your weapon.

There's been ample time for us to see that happen, but the fact remains that it has not.

The U.S. has seen more than 40 states pass laws allowing licensed concealed carry for people who meet objective licensing criteria, since Florida got the ball rolling in 1987.

Can you explain why, with literally millions of people licensed to carry guns (and carrying them), we haven't seen your prediction come to be the norm?

You are asserting that people who want to rob others are tantamount to cold-blooded killers, which is a specious claim you can't back up. Just because someone wants your wallet and cash, doesn't mean he necessarily wants to be a murderer, so he might carry a gun for the threat and the power of it but not necessarily desire to shoot you preemptively just because "so many Americans have guns."

Fact is, though, if shooting someone who was robbing me presented itself as the viable way to end his threat to me, I'd do it without hesitation.

I still don't see what alternative you're offering:
- Don't resist, and they get to have everything that's yours
- Do resist, and they'll just shoot you right away

Yay. Cheery, ain't you?

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[mnealtx 0]

Well, I *did* find something interesting, after all...(emphasis mine)

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In contrast to the falls, residential robberies1 rose by 30 per cent to 448, which is almost three
times the number recorded five years previously (Table 3.09). Robberies in ‘other premises and
open spaces’ rose by 38 per cent to 733.

I suppose that answers my question from before about 'hot' burglaries...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rushmc 18]

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YEP...thats exactly what you have...criminals taking things to the extreme resulting in loss of life on both sides of the coin.

Hope sleep with that thing under your pillow..hope its big enough and more importantly i sincerely hope your hard enough should shit ever come a crawling.

One thing is for sure, I don't have to worry about sleeping in any way shape or form. Cause you are so far out in left feild I may start replying to Amazon and ignore you

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[birdlike 0]

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Don't get me wrong i'm all for sadistically torturing criminals to death wherever they may be.
Does the tragic Palm beach article happen to mention wether or not the household held a firearm or not.

Dosn't really matter tho because i dont care who you are there's not alot anyone could have done vs the power of 12.

Well, there's always, "Check through the peephole in the door, and refuse to open it for anyone you don't recognize. And if they force the door, you can be around a corner in the house, firing at them coming through the bottleneck of the front door."

See, the lunacy of your position seems to be, "Since the odds are against you with a gun against 10 (not 12), might as well give up the gun and have NOTHING," as though that'd make you better off.

Here's the paradox: Are you saying that if we made a public spectacle of having all the good people give up the guns that you say make the criminals arm themselves, the criminals will then de-escalate their own weapons? Or would they just see it as a free-for-all, "Hey, those morons gave up their defensive guns thinking we'd make nice and give up our own -- but now we have even greater power against them comparatively!"

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[juanesky 0]

Don't you know is always the victim's fault?

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[birdlike 0]

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Like i said in a previous post the UK gun problem seems to be predominately drug/gang related and i think you'll find it hard to come across a case in the uk where firearms have been used in a household burglary for example...

Well, I apologize that it's not a "household burglary," but I found a rather conspicuous MURDER in which a gun was used in the U.K. that was not "gang-related."

It was the murder of television newscaster Jill Dando, on her doorstep

Now, the story says: "Barry George, 41, shot Miss Dando through the head with a single bullet on the doorstep of her home in Fulham, west London, on 26 April 1999.

George, a known sex offender, denied the killing, but a jury of six women and five men convicted him by a 10-1 majority after an Old Bailey trial lasting nearly two months."

Scary, to me, is that in british jurisprudence, you can be convicted of murder by a jury that is not unanimous. Kind of dicey for civil liberty, no? Not such wonderful protection against the innocent being wrongly found guilty...

I wonder, how did a known sex offender get a hold of an illegal gun two years after the ban took them away?

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[trigger 0]

I know you're talking sense in respect to the concealed carry point with regards to the us 2nd ammendment. But my point is that when you go to extremes 'guns' there will be a criminal element that may,given a situation like counter those extremes.

I know the uk example is different and far removed from the us situation as in the UK even pre 1997 gun laws we've never been permitted to carry or have loaded/ready weapons in our households.
And to be quite frank guns scare me and i think it's sad that so many of the us population feel the need to own such potentially nasty shit.

Maybe it would be fairer to discuss ways of preventing US criminals/mad people from having access to guns this may aliviate some of the percieved need to own a gun other than for sporting purposes in the first place.

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[trigger 0]

Most burglaries happen when the occupents of the household are away,hence more like 'cold'burglaries i should know i've been burgled twice good job i dont own any guns the fuckers would have nicked those as well.

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[juanesky 0]

But there are ways of preventing criminals from having guns. It's called laws.

Speaking of nasty shit, cars have more potential of even nastier shit, skydiving too, they should be illegal as well according to your views.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[birdlike 0]

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And to be quite frank guns scare me and i think it's sad that so many of the us population feel the need to own such potentially nasty shit.

Jeez, if guns scare you that bad, I hope you never become aware of how many people have cans of gasoline stored on hand! That'd probably make someone who's afraid of guns wet his pants!

Really, I have to ask, why are you afraid of guns? They're inanimate. No gun fires itself. It makes a bit more sense to be afraid of "criminals"; and beyond that, I'd say don't be so much "afraid" of them as "prepared" to recognize threats and deal with them.

Really. Are you afraid of the big booms they make? You can drill that out of yourself with practice, you know.

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Maybe it would be fairer to discuss ways of preventing US criminals/mad people from having access to guns this may aliviate some of the percieved need to own a gun other than for sporting purposes in the first place.

Well, what hasn't been tried, short of collecting them all up -- well, all the legal ones you know about, anyway? I mean, you keep arguing in favor of stuff that's been tried and has failed. The ultimate efforts to keep guns from criminals have been made in England, Washington D.C., Japan (where the mayor of Tokyo was murdered by a Yakuza boss recently, right on the street, over a traffic fine). We can see those efforts have failed. What do you recommend that would not include attempting to take everyone's guns away in the effort to keep them from criminals?

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

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[birdlike 0]

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Most burglaries happen when the occupents of the household are away,hence more like 'cold'burglaries i should know i've been burgled twice good job i dont own any guns the fuckers would have nicked those as well.

Make sure you don't own any jewelry, electronics, currency or anything else that those "fuckers" could nick. It sounds like you're so resigned to having the criminals rule the roost there that you simply have to be glad you didn't have something dangerous for them to acquire when they burglarized you. That's really sad. What a yoke to live under.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[trigger 0]

Your right cars are nasty if driven irresponsibly as for skydiving you're petty much in charge of your own destiny provided you dont jump with idiots.
But as you said cars are just as dangerous as guns if not more so when the 'idiots' are behind them.
Maybe we could discuss how to prevent idiots getting hold of dangerous shit any suggestions.

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.