Jack Valenti died!

[Thanatos340 1]

My first post in this thread.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2789524#2789524

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You Buy a CD.. YOU have a right to listen to it and SOME rights as to how you can back it up or transfer the contents to other media for personal use. If you dont like that.. DONT Buy it.

You sure you dont want say what Right have been stolen??

[dorbie 0]

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My first post in this thread.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2789524#2789524

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You Buy a CD.. YOU have a right to listen to it and SOME rights as to how you can back it up or transfer the contents to other media for personal use. If you dont like that.. DONT Buy it.

You sure you dont want say what Right have been stolen??

At best it was a non sequitur w.r.t. MPAA and the DMCA since it is inherently a non protected format, it merely highlights your lack of understanding of the issues being discussed.

I have described the rights that have been removed by the DMCA several times. One would think that you'd be embarrassed enough by now to do a little research, instead of disingenuously repeating the same mantra.

Have you stopped to think that DVD Jon's software is an essential open source component for any opensource DVD player (that would be essential to play LEGAL ORIGINAL DVDs)? Do you even know who the guy is or what happened to him thanks to pressure from the US state department?

Did you pause even for a moment to consider the ramifications of Kallend's remarks?

Of course not, because according to you no rights have been removed, by the DMCA, and damn the facts or any information to the contrary.

I suspect you'd have been guarding the crates of tea in Boston Harbor had you been there in 1773.

[DSE 3]

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No, DMR doesn't preclude you from ripping content/bypassing DMR for purposes of use in the classroom.

When software that might make fair use possible is illegal and the author branded a criminal and the code illegal to print on a T-shirt is every high school teacher supposed to reverse engineer content scrambling themselves?

Perhaps we should mail Sony our DVD along with a grovelling letter to ask that they allow us to exercise our rights whenever we encounter a fair use scenario.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong....If you follow the link I which was provided to Kallend's response, you'll see exactly how recent changes in the law have made it very much a legal endeavor to circumvent DRM for certain purposes. It's spelled out in plain English, not legalese.

You ask if one can buy a computer "unemcumbered by DRM costs." No, you can't. And you can't buy a candy bar or pair of jeans that are "unencumbered with shoplifting/shrink costs" either.

Shrink/theft is a huge consideration in ALL costs for everyone that owns a business regardless of what it is. The difference is, if you steal a pair of jeans from the store, you only have one pair of jeans. If you steal content from a DVD or CD, you now have dozens, hundreds, thousands, incalculable copies out in cyberspace that once released, can never, ever be recalled.
It's Pandora's Box, and once opened, you can never get the content back in the box.
C'mon...we've had PM's, I know you're smarter than your post positions make you sound on this subject.

Would you buy a house or car with no locks? Why not? Aren't you interested in protecting that which you have worked hard to earn?

When you create a piece of music, dance, sculpture, video, film, literature, painting, whatever...that you'd like to put into the public for their enjoyment, please come back and let us know how concerned you are that someone has stolen your piece of music, dance, sculpture, video, film, literature, painting, whatever. Just yesterday, watched a well known skydiver freak out because he found his photo work on a website about skydiving. Look at how most skydiving pro photographers protect themselves, they watermark their images. Why? Because they value their work and want people to pay for that quality of work.
If nothing else, this thread shows that no one else does.

[dorbie 0]

Shoplifters are arrested for the costs they impose on society, and so should the MPAA and the bastards like Valenti.

Jon Lech Johansen was placed on trial twice and finally cleared on all charges in December 2003 in a country that would not have given a shit were it not for presure from the US State Department after lobbying by the MPAA.

You also missed the obvious catch 22.

[Slappie 9]

I love how this thread can go 4 pages and not be moved. I post a little blurb and thread about Internet Radio fixing to get taxed to death and 5 posts into it, it's buried in SC.

as for the OP... Fuck Jack, that bastard is dead and I AM GLAD! I have no remorse for my feelings either.

"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them."

[DSE 3]

OK,...by your logic, then Bill Gates should be arrested for placing unlock codes on his software, so should I. My small company manufactures very niched software for producers/broadcasters. Small market. We pay around 15,000.00 a year for our copyguard protection, and even with that, we've still found where our software has been pirated and downloaded several thousand times. So, put me in jail for tossing the cost of copyprotection on my software.
Then put H. Lee Scott (CEO/Walmart) in jail for adding the cost of Sensormatic tags to products over $20.00, because you, I, and everyone else that shops at Walmart pays for those tags, as part of the price increases due to shrink.
Then we should arrest/jail the president of BMW, for building in the cost of electronic locks and lowjack on the cars they build and sell.
While we're at it, let's arrest anyone that makes any product in of those damn difficult to open plastic packages, because it hurts our teeth and fingers to open. It's difficult, because it helps slow shoplifters/thieves.
Let's put Laszlo, Norman, Joe, Mike, Greg, and other great aerial photographers in jail because they upload high resolution images with watermarks. Damn them for doing so, I'd like to print those out and put one on my shelf, especially the ones that have me in them.
Hell, while we're at it, let's put bankers in jail for putting our money in a big-ass safe too, because it makes it damn hard to get to our money 24/7.
Can you BELIEVE THE GALL of all these assholes?? They make it so hard for us to take what they've worked hard to create. Dammit, I breathe, and therefore I'm entitled to everything I want in this world for free. I was really pissed when I wasn't allowed to use my HDV camera in the theater last week when I was watching a movie, and it really chapped my ass when I was prevented from shooting the play "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels" last night. Christ, I PAID $75.00 for my seat, I think I'm entitled to videotape the performance, don't you?

[Thanatos340 1]

Let me see if I fully understand you points. What you are saying is:

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"Da man!! Da Man is out to get me!!". "He be takin my rights". "Down with da Man!!"

That evil corporate Bastard.. I want to make Copies of his stuff and he wont let me!! Whaaaa, Whaaa, Whaaa. I gots rights!! I gots Rights!! I paid him $10 for that CD.. I do what ever I want with the contents!! I got rights!! Whaaa, Whaaa, Whaaa.

Free Mumia I mean DVD Jon!!!!

Down with da Man!!

I think that about sums it up.

[dorbie 0]

P.S.

I have an large library of DVDs I paid for them all. I still think I should have the right to play them on linux devices and make fair use backups as was once a principal under the law. In vact I should be able to make a digital juke box of them if I choose (my own video iPod) you'll notice that the MPAA's attempts to kill an exciting startup company doing exactly this recently failed. No WHY would movie cartels ever attempt stop this? There's certainly no theft going on.

This technological explosion gifts huge earning potential to artists. It creates a market that never existed. I have no sympathy for artists and industry associations that are too busy defending against lost sales they don't make (and probably never would) to focus on growing & appreciating the sales they do and treating those legal customers with the respect they've earned. Their solution, to take a sledghammer to both the PC internals, the law and innocent software developers who've given more of value to the world than they ever will in a strategy that WILL NOT solve the problem and only abuses their legal customers is contemptible.

You're smarter than that.

[DSE 3]

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Their solution, to take a sledghammer to both the PC internals, the law and innocent software developers who've given more of value to the world than they ever will in a strategy that WILL NOT solve the problem and only abuses their legal customers is contemptible.

You're smarter than that.

I guess I'm not.
We've learned that the majority of people when behind closed doors, will steal. It sucks that as a result, we have to take measures that help slow down that theft, which I believe stops *most* people from stealing, just like a small, cheapo lock will prevent most thieves looking for an easy grab.
You're right...the thieves that *REALLY* want to break in, they're gonna get there.
Hell, with that logic, let's abolish the FBI, Homeland Security, the CIA, and Disneyland security, because regardless of what these guys do to prevent it, terrorists still get away with bombings.
Bastards taking our tax $$ and not preventing anything....

[billvon 2,400]

This all seems like much ado over nothing. Digital protection schemes WILL be broken by users of said schemes, and nothing manufacturers can do will stop them. Indeed, the ones who sink more money into such schemes are the ones that are going to become less competitive, and will be out-competed by companies that simply state "don't copy our stuff and sell it." Both will be copied by the unscrupulous, of course, but one will waste a lot more money trying to prevent that from happening.

[dorbie 0]

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Let me see if I fully understand you points. What you are saying is:

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I think that about sums it up.

Contrary to your characterization I'm not a leftie and don't subscribe to any of that "down with da man" nonsense. Valenti's actions earned my contempt, and the name calling is to disrespect the mouldering corpse of a fucking bastard who has done more than most to undermine our rights and freedoms. Take it more as a celebration of the asshole's death, may he burn in hell.

The PC I'm using would not have been possible without the reverse engineering of the BIOS that IBM fought in court and lost. Reflect on that once you learn more about what the DMCA did. I don't expect you to understand, your response is a knee-jerk political one rather than an informed one and ignorance is not a crime, not even under the DMCA.

........ and you said you weren't a troll.

[DSE 3]

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This all seems like much ado over nothing. Digital protection schemes WILL be broken by users of said schemes, and nothing manufacturers can do will stop them. Indeed, the ones who sink more money into such schemes are the ones that are going to become less competitive, and will be out-competed by companies that simply state "don't copy our stuff and sell it." Both will be copied by the unscrupulous, of course, but one will waste a lot more money trying to prevent that from happening.

Can't disagree with you for the most part. However, NO ONE with a product worth owning takes the position of "don't copy our stuff and sell it." Most small-time pirates don't sell what they pirate, they give it to their friends.
The biggest bulk of piracy is happening at grotesque levels in Russia, Canada, and China, but the small numbers add up to huge sums, and anywhere that this activity can be slowed, it's gonna be slowed.
Digital protection schemes will always be broken.
As a result, the locks get bigger/tougher. Remember when a cheap chain and barrel lock held a 10speed in place? Today, we have monster titanium whatevers that weigh as much as the bike.
Software/media content is no different.
Yes, copy protections will always be broken
Yes, pirates will always copy and sell out of their car at the flea market.
Yes, unscrupulous people will copy/rip songs and give them to their friends or upload to p2p sites.
Yes, DRM is a losing battle at the end of the day, particularly for honest people (BTW, I'm not defending the various schemes of DRM, I'm defending my rights as an artist to protect what I've created).
Yes, no matter how smart engineers are, there are always going to be those that will reverse engineer or use brute force to break code.
Yes, thieves will always try to break into your home or car.
You are correct in all your points.
So, should we simply quit locking our doors and let whatever happen?

What is ironic, funny, sad as hell, is that there are those that speak in these very same forums about how they've got guns and whatever else and will shoot to kill to protect their homes and property.
Yet those same people freak out about artists and studios trying to protect their property.
How stupid is that?

[dorbie 0]

Meanwhile the legitimate customers suffer.

Look at DRM on iTunes store songs. Can you imagine anything more asinine? Everyone else has a legitimate CD copy they can RIP. But the one person they can absolutely guarantee has bought it legally is DRM encumbered by these idiots.

DVDs are not much better. Casual pirates can casually rip, you'd have to be living in a cave to miss the cornucopia of software out there, mean time you can't actually get a DVD player on a distro, heck Windows can't play DVDs out the box thanks to CSS key licensing bullshit. It's not enough they protect the content they want to sell you the key to play your own stuff. A key to a lock you never wanted in the first place.

[billvon 2,400]

> However, NO ONE with a product worth owning takes the position of "don't
>copy our stuff and sell it."

Apple OSes do. The five-license installation CD is exactly the same as the one-license installation CD. No activation codes. Which is one reason that many people find Apple "cooler" than Microsoft.

>So, should we simply quit locking our doors and let whatever happen?

Nope.

Locking doors is a bad analogy, since if someone steals my TV he does not leave the original there. Wireless router access is a better analogy. Is there any harm in allowing your neighbors to use your router? It certainly means the phone company/cable company makes less money, and that cost may be passed on to you. And if he's downloading lots of videos, your connection may bog down and you may want to boot him while you do your stuff. But if you're OK with that, I don't see the moral problem.

>What is ironic, funny, sad as hell, is that there are those that speak
>in these very same forums about how they've got guns and whatever
>else and will shoot to kill to protect their homes and property.
>Yet those same people freak out about artists and studios trying to
>protect their property.
>How stupid is that?

A thief breaking into someone's house is a little different than someone who copies a CD.

[PLFXpert 0]

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What is ironic, funny, sad as hell, is that there are those that speak in these very same forums about how they've got guns and whatever else and will shoot to kill to protect their homes and property.
Yet those same people freak out about artists and studios trying to protect their property.
How stupid is that

Um, I think I agree with you. What is funny & sad to me is for some reason I have NO idea what I'm reading about in this thread and yet, though I don't read most threads in their entirety, I started following this one early on and am fully enthralled.

I haven't bothered researching what the hell ya'll are talking about. That would take away my fun.

But for the record, I'm pretty sure I'm the only person I know who still buys CDs, and I don't buy them often. More often I listen to satellite radio or the music channels on TV. I LOVE music, though. But the only "burned" CD I have is an Aerosmith mix some guy made me, even though he knew I had a boyfriend. Gotta love the mix CD. From a guy, that spells love. Or, "I'll go to extra lengths to fuck you". But alas, I said thank you, gave him a hug and haven't spoken to him since--it's one of my favorite CDs, though, even though I have every Aerosmith CD there is. His really does have all my favorite songs in one convenient compilation. That's cool. But, I'd never spend the time to do that myself. I'd rather be outside, in the ocean. Salt = bad news for electronics.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[DSE 3]

Someone using your wireless router isn't stealing something other than airspace/bandwidth. Taking intellectual property from a DVD, CD, HDD, or any other mechanical device, reproducing it on another mechanical device is theft. Pretty simple, I'm surprised you don't see it that way.
Sorry, I don't see stealing in different shades of grey. Either you steal, or you don't.
Like the old saying goes, "we've established what you are, now we're just negotiating the value."

The argument of "Taking a song from a CD and uploading it to the web doesn't hurt anyone" doesn't hold water, because the person who owns the content isn't aware he/she is being hurt, let alone that the song has been uploaded.

In so many threads here, I've read you and others state how experience is paramount, and/or how jump numbers plus physical/mental acuity is important when reading or formulating a response to a question regarding the sport of skydiving.

If you've never created a work that others want to enjoy and have enrich their lives, never registered a copyright, at the end of the day you don't know WTF you're talking about.
I might as well have a 2 jump AFF student lecturing me on how to freefly because just like the 3 jump AFF is clueless on why certain aspects of the sport exist, so is the person who doesn't understand why we have copyrights or what it means to create the content that needs protection whether it's legal, moral, or physical.

DRM is a pain in the ass. I wish my music, film, and software works didn't require some form of protection. IMO, this thread demonstrates the absolute need for it. People steal. Plain and simple.
Some would argue "I'll never pass the content along to someone else" and my only response to that is "bullshit."

I'd prefer a thief take my TV from my shelf before I'd feel good about some jerkoff replicating my work and flooding the market with thousands of copies.
but hell, it doesn't hurt me when some asswipe copies my work and sells it on Ebay, right? After all...no one would have purchased it anyway, right? Except for the unsuspecting sucker that bought it from Ebay.

Obviously we'll never agree on this subject; all I can say is that I'm saddened to see that people I respect would advocate for theft from creatives. It's unfortunate you feel it's OK to steal from me because my work product is intellectual, and someone else' work product is physical.

[billvon 2,400]

> Someone using your wireless router isn't stealing something other
>than airspace/bandwidth.

Right. Just as someone who is copying CD's isn't stealing anything other than some bits.

>Sorry, I don't see stealing in different shades of grey. Either you steal, or
>you don't.

Do you ever speed? Do you consider yourself a criminal?

Do you ever connect to a hotspot without verifying that it is free? Do you consider yourself a thief?

>If you've never created a work that others want to enjoy and have
>enrich their lives, never registered a copyright, at the end of the day you
>don't know WTF you're talking about.

I have, and indeed have been published in three other languages so far. (Seeing an article I wrote in Dutch was pretty trippy.) Since my objective is to help other people with skydiving, I am quite happy to let people use my work for free. Others may feel differently, and that's fine too. Copyright laws help protect their IP.

>all I can say is that I'm saddened to see that people I respect would
>advocate for theft from creatives. It's unfortunate you feel it's OK to steal
>from me because my work product is intellectual, and someone else' work
>product is physical.

I don't think that. I fear you are making some unfounded assumptions, based on your prejudices towards copy management.

[PLFXpert 0]

Recently I bought three colors of the same collared linen shirt from Banana Republic outlet.

They're just for me. The friends borrowing clothes thing ended in early college.

If I could have copied the first one I bought, I wouldn't have needed to buy the other two, thus Banana's profit would suffer. If everyone else was copying the first shirt, too, then Banana's profit would REALLY suffer. Soon the quality of Banana's products would surely suffer. And then I wouldn't buy shirts from Banana anymore.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[billvon 2,400]

>And then I wouldn't buy shirts from Banana anymore.

That would be bad. What's the best solution?

1) Tell people not to do that. Enforce copyright and trademark laws.

2) Implement a system whereby you have to enter a code into the shirt before you wear it, or the shirt will fall apart. If you lose the code, you have to pay to get a new one. You won't be able to wash the shirt because it will damage the lock unless you buy a special washing machine, available only from Banana Republic - and it works on gas only, no electric version is available. You won't be able to legally loan it to your sister unless you buy the special "family license" for an extra $5.

[PLFXpert 0]

I pick neither. What do I win?

Telling people not to do that wouldn't work. People are selfish. Sometimes that's a good thing.

It seems to me if the code were so important, I shouldn't loose it. But, if I did, like one can forget a password, I should have a secret question. I don't have sister and the shirt isn't for her anyways. And it seems if we're talking about buying a special washing machine that only works on gas, we're talking about Apple again, aren't we?

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[billvon 2,400]

>Telling people not to do that wouldn't work. People are selfish. Sometimes that's a good thing.

Right. But telling people not to do that and then prosecuting the people who violate copyright/trademark laws DOES work.

>It seems to me if the code were so important, I shouldn't loose it. But, if
>I did, like one can forget a password, I should have a secret question.

Sure! Just log into their website, enter your username (you DID register and pay for a year's support, right?) and they'll give you the code.

Now after you get that cleared up, you'll be able to start the completely separate procedure for getting the code for your underwear.

[Richards 0]

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You don't have the right to share the content with others, that would be stealing.
Just because something is in the digital domain doesn't make it acceptable to copy it.
You can think it's greed; I'll bet you have locks on your doors. Why? Because you want to have keys in your pocket? or do you want to protect the contents of your home and car? Is it greedy to want to protect what's yours, what you've worked hard to earn or create?
Pirates cost the world well over a billion dollars each year..........

We've worked hard to achieve the creative successes we've generated. It's exceptionally disheartening to find your work for sale on Ebay as pirated goods, or find your work in YouTube because some asswipe thought it might be fun to post it without your permission. Or to find some dickhead that copies your written works and posts them as though they were his own.
The creative process is similar to raising a child in that it has to be nurtured and pulled along until it's finished and can stand on it's own. The artist is paid by sales of the creative work. ..........

With the digital age, many people believe they're entitled to copy whatever the hell they want.
Take away the capital incentive, and art suffers. Even the Queen of Anne knew that back in 1700.
Do copyright protections on media suck? Absolutely. They're invasive and a pain in the ass. I hate them, I hate what it costs to create/manage protections. But they're necessary to at least slow the stem of piracy/thieves.
So are locks on doors.
but most people have em....I wonder why?

Amazingly, very few people recognize the obvious logic in what you have pointed out. I am staggered by people who will whine endlessly about theiving corporate executives and corrupt politicians, yet all their computer software is pirated, as are half their DVD's and CD's.

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[PLFXpert 0]

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Right. But telling people not to do that and then prosecuting the people who violate copyright/trademark laws DOES work.

Mmmm, I don't think to the extent that Banana wouldn't still be loosing quite a bit of profit and their quality would still eventually suffer. Sadly, if quality suffers a little, business suffers a lot. At least for me. I'm of the buy less & buy higher quality frame-of-mind. I only shop in bulk at Costco. And even then it's quality product in bulk. You can't beat pomegranate for $6 instead of $10.

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Sure! Just log into their website, enter your username (you DID register and pay for a year's support, right?) and they'll give you the code.

I always register for warranty's sake. I don't care much for having to pay for support, though. Depends on the product. They should give me the code if I loose it for free.

Undies I guess I'd just have to start making myself. No-one but Billy gets a code to those.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[billvon 2,400]

>Mmmm, I don't think to the extent that Banana wouldn't still be loosing
>quite a bit of profit and their quality would still eventually suffer.

Uh, you do realize that that IS what we have now, right? And Banana Republic seems to be doing fine - even though I am sure some people sometimes take a sewing machine and copy the occasional shirt.

>Undies I guess I'd just have to start making myself.

You're going straight to copyright hay-ull!

[PLFXpert 0]

I think Banana is doing well-enough b/c a lot less people have sewing machines than do "bits" and "CDieces".

I like you. But, I don't think I agree with you here on this subject I know nothing about.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.