The 12-step program

[Darius11 12]

Here are the 12-steps.

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1. 1. We admitted we were powerless over our addiction - that our lives had become unmanageable
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood God
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character
7. Humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood God, praying only for knowledge of God's will for us and the power to carry that out
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other addicts, and to practice these principles in all our affairs

What is your feeling on this?
I have a friend who has been in one for the last month or so. He is very close to me and I am very disappointed that he could not control his alcohol or drug use that he now needs to admit he is powerless.

He called me about a few weeks ago and talked to me for more then an hour. I realized I held my opinions to my self and just gave him support.
Now I feel like I am a fraud, I am always honest with my friends. I have lost friends because I was honest with them, but this time I didn’t say anything.
I feel like I should have told him how I feel but then again I am not an addict.

Why don’t we try to teach people discipline? If you commit to this 12 steps group what are you achieving?

If you have ever seen the South Park episode when Stan’s dad joins a 12-step program that’s the way I feel about it. Specially the point that if you spend you’re whole life avoiding something it still has power over you.

The big If/what that keeps me from being honest with my friend is I don’t know if it is truly a disease or not? I think a cold or cancer is a disease not drinking or smoking too much, but if it is really a disease I don’t want to be responsible for him spiraling out of control. At the same time I feel I am oblagted to be honest with him so that maybe he realizes he can do it him self.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[steveorino 7]

The track record is better than those who wish to stop an addiction by themselves.

steveOrino

[waltappel 1]

I used to feel much like you but over the years I've realized that different things work for different people. If something helps someone break a substance addiction, then that's a good thing even though it might not fit in with my way of thinking.

Walt

[billvon 2,475]

If it works (and it does work for some people) then I think it's great.

I've known atheists who have kicked their addictions because they decided to. I've known religious types who have kicked their addictions by "putting their lives in the hands of Jesus" or otherwise taking a more passive approach. Both ways can work, and neither way is inherently inferior to the other.

[rehmwa 2]

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I realized I held my opinions to my self and just gave him support.
Now I feel like I am a fraud,

You did the right thing. Your friend may have found something that he needs. How is it your business to belittle his personal decisions? A real friend will support their friend's decisions, even (especially) if they disagree with them.

I think the 12 step is WAY, WAY too religiously based. But it might work for some. However, I think it could be easily formed for those that don't have that bent. And someone should offer a support system that's more secular but has the similar stages and sequenced benefits. The 12 step is a religious application of basic psychology to solve addiction, the basic psychology will still work within different structures. the keys are self awareness and public example during treatment and in sponsorship

1. We admitted we were powerless over our addiction - that our lives had become unmanageable
2. Came to believe that we can make a serious personal choice to restore us to sanity
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the improvement of self that we must achieve
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves
5. Admitted to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs
6. Were entirely ready to remove all these defects of character
7. Humbly commit to remove our shortcomings
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it
11. Sought through introspection ways to continue to make ourselve better and better
12. Committing to sharing our lesson with others that have similar issues by carrying this message to other addicts, and to practice these principles in all our affairs


It's not that big a deal, in this case, people triumphing over addiction is the main goal

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[ryoder 1,412]

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The track record is better than those who wish to stop an addiction by themselves.

According to the episode Penn & Teller's "Bullshit" show did on 12-step programs: No.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Darius11 12]

I guess you guys are right I should just keep my opinion on this matter to my self. If there is even any risk of him relapsing then it is not worth it.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[dorbie 0]

The AA's 12 steps has gained a lot of momentum, but it's not for everyone. There are other statistically more successful and less religious less dis-empowering programs.

One of the issues with 12 steps it the lack of hard evidence that it actually works better than other approaches to any significant degree (quite the contrary in fact), evidence given is mostly anecdotal but the few who manage to abstain while on it become ardent "true believers".

There are alternatives, depending on what your friend's problem is.

In summary 12 steps is closer to a cult that a treatment program, stay away and find a real solution. ad-populi is no way to evaluate any treatment.

From Google:

http://unhooked.com/sep/beyondaa.htm
http://www.uic.edu/orgs/convening/AA.htm
http://www.smartrecovery.org/
http://www.deanesmay.com/archives/006854.html
http://www.deanesmay.com/archives/006527.html
http://www.addictioninfo.org/articles/27/1/Addiction-Alternatives-or-Alcoholics-Anonymous/Page1.html

[dorbie 0]

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The track record is better than those who wish to stop an addiction by themselves.

You have no factual basis for that claim.

Moreover the program requires dis-empowerment and intense attendance of religeous oriented rituals that would put a priest to shame.

[beowulf 1]

Would you feel better if it were a Muslim based 12 step program?

[Darius11 12]

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In summary 12 steps is closer to a cult that a treatment program, stay away and find a real solution. ad-populi is no way to evaluate any treatment.

Thats how i feel about it.
What makes this very difficult is my opinion could alter his life in a very negative way. Makes the decision to shut my mouth the safe decision not necessarily the right one. I think that’s what I am struggling with.

As for what he has been addicted to, I guess from what he said. Weed, Meth, and I guess he said finally alcohol.

But he sounds like a zombie like someone put this shit in his head. I know him very well and I know he is not even much of a drinker but they have him convinced that it will lead to that.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[steveorino 7]

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I don’t know if it is truly a disease or not? I think a cold or cancer is a disease not drinking or smoking too much, but if it is really a disease

For what it is worth it is listed in the DSM-IV-TR

http://www.psychnet-uk.com/dsm_iv/_misc/complete_tables.htm

steveOrino

[Darius11 12]

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Would you feel better if it were a Muslim based 12 step program?

Oh not at all.

The religion is a non-issue for me and he is Christian, or I should say half Christian.
What I have the issue with is the cult mentality, and being powerless.
Also there is the selfish reason I feel like I am losing a friend as he has changed so much.
In the last conversation we had he mentioned he has a disease and is powerless like 50 times.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Lindsey 0]

Whatever works. I'm glad that there are places for people to turn when they need a hand up. People who do well in that program are far from powerless, imho, and religiosity isn't central to recovery as far as I can see.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[steveorino 7]

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The track record is better than those who wish to stop an addiction by themselves.

You have no factual basis for that claim.

Moreover the program requires dis-empowerment and intense attendance of religeous oriented rituals that would put a priest to shame.

My bad. That is the arguement they present. Pretty bias I guess. I have reservations about it because a fundamental belief it has is only those who are in recovery can lead a 12 step group. Or so we are told at the pyschiatric hospital where I do my practicum. Obvioulsy there are many pyschologist who would differ.

Apart from the step that recognizes a higher power (utterly undefined) there doesn't have to be a religous overtone. There is none at the local pysch hospital. Not was there any next door to a church I pastored. They couldn't even say "bible" in their meetings. It had to be the book, so neutral it could mean any book.

steveOrino

[beowulf 1]

Just be happy that he made a decision and is sticking to it. It's better then doing nothing.

[Darius11 12]

So only people who are recovering addict can lead a group?

I guess that’s good for understanding there issues but kind of narrows all ideas presented.
I would love to know if they also have to have a psychology degree, or some sort of training.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

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Just be happy that he made a decision and is sticking to it. It's better then doing nothing.

Thats what has kept my mough shut so far, But it is on my mind daily.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[steveorino 7]

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So only people who are recovering addict can lead a group?

I guess that’s good for understanding there issues but kind of narrows all ideas presented.
I would love to know if they also have to have a psychology degree, or some sort of training.

Most don't have a degree. Well, that has been my experience, but I'm not making an exclusive statement.

steveOrino

[Casurf1978 0]

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So only people who are recovering addict can lead a group?

I guess that’s good for understanding there issues but kind of narrows all ideas presented.
I would love to know if they also have to have a psychology degree, or some sort of training.

Most don't have a degree. Well, that has been my experience, but I'm not making an exclusive statement.

Very true. Would you also say that most people turn to the program because they cannot afford medical treatments. For example just checking the Betty Ford, a 30 day stay runs around 23K and 38k for a 90 day program.

[steveorino 7]

If I needed it, that would be a BIG deciding factor. Also may choose it because they tend to meet people who the 12 step program has worked for.

steveOrino

[beowulf 1]

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Just be happy that he made a decision and is sticking to it. It's better then doing nothing.

Thats what has kept my mough shut so far, But it is on my mind daily.

Your worrying about him, that's a good thing. Anything you say to criticize will probably not be taken very well. I wouldn't interfere, if I were you. He is going to change
you might not like the changes but that is his choice.

[dorbie 0]

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Just be happy that he made a decision and is sticking to it. It's better then doing nothing.

Thats what has kept my mough shut so far, But it is on my mind daily.

The assumption here is that 12 steps works.

There are other options that demonstrably work better. Do the research before you say anything and if you do decide to show him other options have your ducks in a row.

[Royd 0]

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think the 12 step is WAY, WAY too religiously based. But it might work for some. However, I think it could be easily formed for those that don't have that bent

The original 12 step program designed by AA is for those who have come to the reality that they are powerless over their addiction, therefore they must look to some source of strength greater than themselves to deal with the problem.

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And someone should offer a support system that's more secular but has the similar stages and sequenced benefits. The 12 step is a religious application of basic psychology to solve addiction, the basic psychology will still work within different structures. the keys are self awareness and public example during treatment and in sponsorship

The problem with secular thinking is that what much of what religious thinking considers wrongdoing is simply considered shades of gray by the secular world. If you think that stealing a few dollars from your mother's purse in order to support your habit is no big deal, then you can't face the fact that your habit is harming innocent people around you.

[beowulf 1]

Why would you think that "secular thinking" would consider that as a shade of gray? Just because you are religious doesn't mean you are a moral person. I have met plenty of religous people that did many immoral things. Religon does not equal good moral values.