dorbie 0 #51 February 22, 2007 QuoteQuote Why don't you let us all know whether you think it's OK for an officer to respond with deadly force when a home owner points a firearm at him. False dichotomy: there is a WORLD of other options between pointing a gun at a cop and putting your hands up when a cop approaches. You've ignored the question look again. I did not present a false dichotomy, when an officer is presented with an armed homeowner pointing a gun at him he's faced with a very real choice. Stop evading the central issue. Is the officer under these circumstances justified in shooting? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,683 #52 February 22, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuote Why don't you let us all know whether you think it's OK for an officer to respond with deadly force when a home owner points a firearm at him. False dichotomy: there is a WORLD of other options between pointing a gun at a cop and putting your hands up when a cop approaches. You've ignored the question look again. I did not present a false dichotomy, when an officer is presented with an armed homeowner pointing a gun at him he's faced with a very real choice. Stop evading the central issue. Is the officer under these circumstances justified in shooting? How is this RELEVANT to whether or not a homowner should come out with his hands up if a cop comes to his house, which is what I have been disputing. I have not taken any stand on what the cop should do, other than refrain from shooting folks armed only with their wallets, like Mr. Diallo.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #53 February 22, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Why don't you let us all know whether you think it's OK for an officer to respond with deadly force when a home owner points a firearm at him. False dichotomy: there is a WORLD of other options between pointing a gun at a cop and putting your hands up when a cop approaches. You've ignored the question look again. I did not present a false dichotomy, when an officer is presented with an armed homeowner pointing a gun at him he's faced with a very real choice. Stop evading the central issue. Is the officer under these circumstances justified in shooting? How is this RELEVANT to whether or not a homowner should come out with his hands up if a cop comes to his house, which is what I have been disputing. I have not taken any stand on what the cop should do, other than refrain from shooting folks armed only with their wallets, like Mr. Diallo. It's a lot more relevant to this thread than the prevalence of donut shops on GPS units. The homeowner had better choices and the suggestion that he should have to come out with his hands in the air is idiotic. The poster has already retracted in an exchange with billvon. Now quit evading the question. Why do you find a simple question about the actions of this cop so vexing? Do you think it is appropriate for a police officer to defend himself with deadly force when a homeowner points a gun at him? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,683 #54 February 22, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Why don't you let us all know whether you think it's OK for an officer to respond with deadly force when a home owner points a firearm at him. False dichotomy: there is a WORLD of other options between pointing a gun at a cop and putting your hands up when a cop approaches. You've ignored the question look again. I did not present a false dichotomy, when an officer is presented with an armed homeowner pointing a gun at him he's faced with a very real choice. Stop evading the central issue. Is the officer under these circumstances justified in shooting? How is this RELEVANT to whether or not a homowner should come out with his hands up if a cop comes to his house, which is what I have been disputing. I have not taken any stand on what the cop should do, other than refrain from shooting folks armed only with their wallets, like Mr. Diallo. It's a lot more relevant to this thread than the prevalence of donut shops on GPS units. The homeowner had better choices and the suggestion that he should have to come out with his hands in the air is idiotic. The poster has already retracted in an exchange with billvon. Now quit evading the question. Why do you find a simple question about the actions of this cop so vexing? Do you think it is appropriate for a police officer to defend himself with deadly force when a homeowner points a gun at him? I haven't commented on the actions of THIS COP because the entire set of facts is still unknown. I find the actions of the cops that shot Diallo 41 times "vexing". I find the actions of a guy going out of his house with a gun in hand "vexing". I find the actions of anyone thinking that having a handgun makes them safer "vexing". This guy's gun certainly didn't imrove his safety, did it? I find the suggestion that the way to approach a cop coming to your house is with hands up "vexing".... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #55 February 22, 2007 The cop screwed up. Went to the wrong address. Never announced he was the police (according to reports). Can't blame him for taking the shot. The guy screwed up by not staying inside and calling the police. If I were to step outside, I would not make an announcement. If the bad guy was out there he would know you are coming. Still the cop screwed up more IMO. Wrong address not making himself known..ect. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
willard 0 #57 February 22, 2007 QuoteThose law-abiding gun owners are just a bundle of fun, aren't they? Good job he wasn't armed with a loaded wallet like Amadou Diallo. Could have got REALLY nasty. Not knowing the entire set of facts didn't stop you frommaking that smart-aleck remark. QuoteI find the actions of the cops that shot Diallo 41 times "vexing". I find the number of times they missed "vexing". QuoteI find the actions of anyone thinking that having a handgun makes them safer "vexing". This guy's gun certainly didn't imrove his safety, did it? Nope, he fucked up. Me being alive must be "vexing" to you though since I wouldn't be if not for having a handgun with me on one occasion. So yeah, I do feel a hell of a lot safer when armed. Being defensless never did sheep much good. QuoteI find the suggestion that the way to approach a cop coming to your house is with hands up "vexing". Agreed. Unless that cop has identified himself first and tells me to do so and/or has his weapon pointed in my direction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jm951 0 #58 February 22, 2007 I'll post this again- think you're safe from the cops?? Read this report from the CATO Institute- http://www.cato.org/pubs/wtpapers/balko_whitepaper_2006.pdf Wrong address raids are NOT uncommon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
willard 0 #59 February 22, 2007 Don't I know it. My friends house was ransacked while they were at work. The cops had the right house number and almost had the right street. With humans running the system mistakes are bound to happen. Best we can do is make every effort to minimize the number. I am sure there cases where the cops get carried away and over zealous. As far as the case this thread is about I am not willing to place blame anywhere until all the facts are out, and that probably won't be for a while. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #60 February 22, 2007 I find the suggestion that the way to approach a cop coming to your house is with hands up "vexing". Quote I find it "vexing" that you so effortlessly take snippets of what people say and use them to further your argument by taking that out of context. If you read my original post you will see that I did not merely say put your hands up, actually if you look closer you will notice directly behind that where it says in a non-threatening position. Which basically means put you hands so he can see that there is nothing in them. Which would be exactly the same as putting your hands on the steering wheel when you are being approached after being pulled over. Regardless of the context of my original post though, why would approaching an officer searching your house with your hands above your head be unreasonable? Maybe to you it sounds like a way to approach the gestapo, but to the officer it takes one hell of a burden off their shoulders because they now know that they don't have to make the immedeate decision to use deadly force. Put yourself in the officers shoes for one second and try and do his/her job. I have personally been in a room barely larger than a walk-in closet with 10+ insurgents all carrying concealed weapons who wanted to kill me and if you could imagine how hard it was to make the decision to kill everyone of them or take them alive as I was trying to force their hands over their heads it was more than enough to make most people pull the trigger. That decision is one of the hardest a person can ever have to make, so why not take a few steps to make that decision a bit easier?History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,280 #61 February 22, 2007 QuoteOK let's see, cops get shot everyday doing routine work. countless cops have lost their lives when they were simply approaching a driver for a traffic stop and the driver pulled out a gun and shot. So it's easy to understand that regardless of the situation a cop wants to to on their guard and ready for anything. You know, here in the defenceless, anarchic UK drivers organisations still advise people to get out of their cars and meet cops by the side of the road when pulled over for a traffic stop. Some psychology about putting yourself on a level playing field from the get go and being less likely to recieve a ticket. Amazing isn't it - even though our traffic police don't carry guns they aren't actually afraid of being shot on a routine speeding bust! What a madhouse country i live in.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,683 #62 February 22, 2007 QuoteI find the suggestion that the way to approach a cop coming to your house is with hands up "vexing". Quote I find it "vexing" that you so effortlessly take snippets of what people say and use them to further your argument by taking that out of context. If you read my original post you will see that I did not merely say put your hands up, actually if you look closer you will notice directly behind that where it says in a non-threatening position. Which basically means put you hands so he can see that there is nothing in them. Which would be exactly the same as putting your hands on the steering wheel when you are being approached after being pulled over. Regardless of the context of my original post though, why would approaching an officer searching your house with your hands above your head be unreasonable? Maybe to you it sounds like a way to approach the gestapo, but to the officer it takes one hell of a burden off their shoulders because they now know that they don't have to make the immedeate decision to use deadly force. Put yourself in the officers shoes for one second and try and do his/her job. I have personally been in a room barely larger than a walk-in closet with 10+ insurgents all carrying concealed weapons who wanted to kill me and if you could imagine how hard it was to make the decision to kill everyone of them or take them alive as I was trying to force their hands over their heads it was more than enough to make most people pull the trigger. That decision is one of the hardest a person can ever have to make, so why not take a few steps to make that decision a bit easier? Everything you write suggests that citizens should approach cops as they would an adversary. This is an INAPPROPRIATE way of thinking about cops unless you are a criminal or living in a police state. Has the US become a police state?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NCclimber 0 #63 February 22, 2007 QuoteEverything you write suggests that citizens should approach cops as they would an adversary. Taking steps to assure a policeman that you are intentionally acting in a non-threatening manner means you're treating the policeman as an adversary? Okay. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites willard 0 #64 February 22, 2007 QuoteSimple solution, you see police officers approaching your house LOUDLY identify yourself put your hands up into a non-threatening position and follow the officers directions. The majority of these accidental shooting are the fault of the "victim". That's a pretty clear statement. Identify yourself (This is my house, can I help you?) and put your hands up into a non-threatening position. (Out from your sides in plain veiw would be good.) Nowhere does he suggest putting your hands up over your head like you were being robbed by Billy the Kid. That implication comes from your posts, if not directly then implied. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NCclimber 0 #65 February 22, 2007 Some people go to great lengths to miss the point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #66 February 22, 2007 QuoteSome people go to great lengths to miss the point. it is more fun that way ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,280 #67 February 22, 2007 QuoteTaking steps to assure a policeman that you are intentionally acting in a non-threatening manner means you're treating the policeman as an adversary? If you feel you have to do that in order to avoid being shot, then yes.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NCclimber 0 #68 February 22, 2007 Some people go to great lengths to miss the point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #69 February 22, 2007 QuoteI don't know about that. I think we can fairly conclude that having a gun in the home for self-defense may well backfire on you.Quote As previosly stated it wasn't simply the fact that the homeowner had a gun that caused the incident, the homeowner took the wrong actions and that is what caused the incident. Pretty weak argument you have there Kallend. So the cop did nothing wrong? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites warpedskydiver 0 #70 February 22, 2007 If he had it in his hand...no problem If he pointed it at an unidentified suspect after being alarmed by noises in a rural setting? no problem. If he pointed it at an officer who did not identify himself? Big problem for both of them. If the officer identified himself clearly there is a big problem for the homeowner. Do I believe any part of the story that the man came out wearing a ski mask and pointed it at a Police Officer? NO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #71 February 22, 2007 Everything you write suggests that citizens should approach cops as they would an adversary. This is an INAPPROPRIATE way of thinking about cops unless you are a criminal or living in a police state. Quote So what would the write answer be, you know the one that shows we aren't in a police state? Would approaching a police officer in a dark alley, unidentified, with your hand tacked into your jacket be a good way to ensure we aren't heading towards a police state? Tell me Kallend how many times have you been toe to toe with someone holding a gun to your head, how many times have you had to make the split second decision of whether or not to take a man's life? It's sad that you have such a disrespect for any type of authority figure that taking a few small steps to show them that you are a friend not a threat brings this country one step closer to being in a state of marshall law. And Livendive, I wasn't trying o say that the cop was completely innocent in this case, we don't know that yet. However his actions were greatly provoked by a homeowner approaching him with a firearm.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,683 #72 February 22, 2007 QuoteEverything you write suggests that citizens should approach cops as they would an adversary. This is an INAPPROPRIATE way of thinking about cops unless you are a criminal or living in a police state. Quote So what would the write answer be, you know the one that shows we aren't in a police state? Would approaching a police officer in a dark alley, unidentified, with your hand tacked into your jacket be a good way to ensure we aren't heading towards a police state? Tell me Kallend how many times have you been toe to toe with someone holding a gun to your head, how many times have you had to make the split second decision of whether or not to take a man's life? It's sad that you have such a disrespect for any type of authority figure that taking a few small steps to show them that you are a friend not a threat brings this country one step closer to being in a state of marshall law. And Livendive, I wasn't trying o say that the cop was completely innocent in this case, we don't know that yet. However his actions were greatly provoked by a homeowner approaching him with a firearm. I think that your view of things is distorted by your profession. Unlike the military, most of us are not trained to have adversarial relationships with the people we interact with on a daily basis, nor do we want such relationships. I certainly have never had an adversarial relationship with a cop, nor do I intend to start now. As far as judging this particular incident, I suggest we wait until some undisputed FACTS emerge.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,478 #73 February 22, 2007 >If he pointed it at an officer who did not identify himself? Big problem for both of them. ?? You would not point a gun at an intruder with a gun who acted threatening and did not identify himself? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Butters 0 #74 February 22, 2007 QuoteDo I believe any part of the story that the man came out wearing a ski mask and pointed it at a Police Officer? NO We make opinions based on what we have been told ... when what we have been told changes so will the opinions. (I don't belive it either but at this point it has not been denied.)"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #75 February 22, 2007 Unlike the military, most of us are not trained to have adversarial relationships with the people we interact with on a daily basis, nor do we want such relationships.Quote And you just proved that you have absolutely no idea how I interact with people on a daily basis while I am deployed downrange. You claim you don't want an adverserial relationship with a cop but refuse to show a little respect for the kind of mentality they could possibly have which is caused by people trying to kill them. It's not making them an adversary, its showing them respect, they have to make an assesment of every single person they approach and small step to help them make that assesment is not making them the bad guy, it's showing them you're willing to help. Tell me, what do you do when you are pulled over.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 3 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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jakee 1,280 #61 February 22, 2007 QuoteOK let's see, cops get shot everyday doing routine work. countless cops have lost their lives when they were simply approaching a driver for a traffic stop and the driver pulled out a gun and shot. So it's easy to understand that regardless of the situation a cop wants to to on their guard and ready for anything. You know, here in the defenceless, anarchic UK drivers organisations still advise people to get out of their cars and meet cops by the side of the road when pulled over for a traffic stop. Some psychology about putting yourself on a level playing field from the get go and being less likely to recieve a ticket. Amazing isn't it - even though our traffic police don't carry guns they aren't actually afraid of being shot on a routine speeding bust! What a madhouse country i live in.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,683 #62 February 22, 2007 QuoteI find the suggestion that the way to approach a cop coming to your house is with hands up "vexing". Quote I find it "vexing" that you so effortlessly take snippets of what people say and use them to further your argument by taking that out of context. If you read my original post you will see that I did not merely say put your hands up, actually if you look closer you will notice directly behind that where it says in a non-threatening position. Which basically means put you hands so he can see that there is nothing in them. Which would be exactly the same as putting your hands on the steering wheel when you are being approached after being pulled over. Regardless of the context of my original post though, why would approaching an officer searching your house with your hands above your head be unreasonable? Maybe to you it sounds like a way to approach the gestapo, but to the officer it takes one hell of a burden off their shoulders because they now know that they don't have to make the immedeate decision to use deadly force. Put yourself in the officers shoes for one second and try and do his/her job. I have personally been in a room barely larger than a walk-in closet with 10+ insurgents all carrying concealed weapons who wanted to kill me and if you could imagine how hard it was to make the decision to kill everyone of them or take them alive as I was trying to force their hands over their heads it was more than enough to make most people pull the trigger. That decision is one of the hardest a person can ever have to make, so why not take a few steps to make that decision a bit easier? Everything you write suggests that citizens should approach cops as they would an adversary. This is an INAPPROPRIATE way of thinking about cops unless you are a criminal or living in a police state. Has the US become a police state?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NCclimber 0 #63 February 22, 2007 QuoteEverything you write suggests that citizens should approach cops as they would an adversary. Taking steps to assure a policeman that you are intentionally acting in a non-threatening manner means you're treating the policeman as an adversary? Okay. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites willard 0 #64 February 22, 2007 QuoteSimple solution, you see police officers approaching your house LOUDLY identify yourself put your hands up into a non-threatening position and follow the officers directions. The majority of these accidental shooting are the fault of the "victim". That's a pretty clear statement. Identify yourself (This is my house, can I help you?) and put your hands up into a non-threatening position. (Out from your sides in plain veiw would be good.) Nowhere does he suggest putting your hands up over your head like you were being robbed by Billy the Kid. That implication comes from your posts, if not directly then implied. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NCclimber 0 #65 February 22, 2007 Some people go to great lengths to miss the point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #66 February 22, 2007 QuoteSome people go to great lengths to miss the point. it is more fun that way ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,280 #67 February 22, 2007 QuoteTaking steps to assure a policeman that you are intentionally acting in a non-threatening manner means you're treating the policeman as an adversary? If you feel you have to do that in order to avoid being shot, then yes.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NCclimber 0 #68 February 22, 2007 Some people go to great lengths to miss the point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #69 February 22, 2007 QuoteI don't know about that. I think we can fairly conclude that having a gun in the home for self-defense may well backfire on you.Quote As previosly stated it wasn't simply the fact that the homeowner had a gun that caused the incident, the homeowner took the wrong actions and that is what caused the incident. Pretty weak argument you have there Kallend. So the cop did nothing wrong? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites warpedskydiver 0 #70 February 22, 2007 If he had it in his hand...no problem If he pointed it at an unidentified suspect after being alarmed by noises in a rural setting? no problem. If he pointed it at an officer who did not identify himself? Big problem for both of them. If the officer identified himself clearly there is a big problem for the homeowner. Do I believe any part of the story that the man came out wearing a ski mask and pointed it at a Police Officer? NO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #71 February 22, 2007 Everything you write suggests that citizens should approach cops as they would an adversary. This is an INAPPROPRIATE way of thinking about cops unless you are a criminal or living in a police state. Quote So what would the write answer be, you know the one that shows we aren't in a police state? Would approaching a police officer in a dark alley, unidentified, with your hand tacked into your jacket be a good way to ensure we aren't heading towards a police state? Tell me Kallend how many times have you been toe to toe with someone holding a gun to your head, how many times have you had to make the split second decision of whether or not to take a man's life? It's sad that you have such a disrespect for any type of authority figure that taking a few small steps to show them that you are a friend not a threat brings this country one step closer to being in a state of marshall law. And Livendive, I wasn't trying o say that the cop was completely innocent in this case, we don't know that yet. However his actions were greatly provoked by a homeowner approaching him with a firearm.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,683 #72 February 22, 2007 QuoteEverything you write suggests that citizens should approach cops as they would an adversary. This is an INAPPROPRIATE way of thinking about cops unless you are a criminal or living in a police state. Quote So what would the write answer be, you know the one that shows we aren't in a police state? Would approaching a police officer in a dark alley, unidentified, with your hand tacked into your jacket be a good way to ensure we aren't heading towards a police state? Tell me Kallend how many times have you been toe to toe with someone holding a gun to your head, how many times have you had to make the split second decision of whether or not to take a man's life? It's sad that you have such a disrespect for any type of authority figure that taking a few small steps to show them that you are a friend not a threat brings this country one step closer to being in a state of marshall law. And Livendive, I wasn't trying o say that the cop was completely innocent in this case, we don't know that yet. However his actions were greatly provoked by a homeowner approaching him with a firearm. I think that your view of things is distorted by your profession. Unlike the military, most of us are not trained to have adversarial relationships with the people we interact with on a daily basis, nor do we want such relationships. I certainly have never had an adversarial relationship with a cop, nor do I intend to start now. As far as judging this particular incident, I suggest we wait until some undisputed FACTS emerge.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,478 #73 February 22, 2007 >If he pointed it at an officer who did not identify himself? Big problem for both of them. ?? You would not point a gun at an intruder with a gun who acted threatening and did not identify himself? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Butters 0 #74 February 22, 2007 QuoteDo I believe any part of the story that the man came out wearing a ski mask and pointed it at a Police Officer? NO We make opinions based on what we have been told ... when what we have been told changes so will the opinions. (I don't belive it either but at this point it has not been denied.)"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #75 February 22, 2007 Unlike the military, most of us are not trained to have adversarial relationships with the people we interact with on a daily basis, nor do we want such relationships.Quote And you just proved that you have absolutely no idea how I interact with people on a daily basis while I am deployed downrange. You claim you don't want an adverserial relationship with a cop but refuse to show a little respect for the kind of mentality they could possibly have which is caused by people trying to kill them. It's not making them an adversary, its showing them respect, they have to make an assesment of every single person they approach and small step to help them make that assesment is not making them the bad guy, it's showing them you're willing to help. Tell me, what do you do when you are pulled over.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 3 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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NCclimber 0 #63 February 22, 2007 QuoteEverything you write suggests that citizens should approach cops as they would an adversary. Taking steps to assure a policeman that you are intentionally acting in a non-threatening manner means you're treating the policeman as an adversary? Okay. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
willard 0 #64 February 22, 2007 QuoteSimple solution, you see police officers approaching your house LOUDLY identify yourself put your hands up into a non-threatening position and follow the officers directions. The majority of these accidental shooting are the fault of the "victim". That's a pretty clear statement. Identify yourself (This is my house, can I help you?) and put your hands up into a non-threatening position. (Out from your sides in plain veiw would be good.) Nowhere does he suggest putting your hands up over your head like you were being robbed by Billy the Kid. That implication comes from your posts, if not directly then implied. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #65 February 22, 2007 Some people go to great lengths to miss the point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #66 February 22, 2007 QuoteSome people go to great lengths to miss the point. it is more fun that way ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,280 #67 February 22, 2007 QuoteTaking steps to assure a policeman that you are intentionally acting in a non-threatening manner means you're treating the policeman as an adversary? If you feel you have to do that in order to avoid being shot, then yes.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #68 February 22, 2007 Some people go to great lengths to miss the point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #69 February 22, 2007 QuoteI don't know about that. I think we can fairly conclude that having a gun in the home for self-defense may well backfire on you.Quote As previosly stated it wasn't simply the fact that the homeowner had a gun that caused the incident, the homeowner took the wrong actions and that is what caused the incident. Pretty weak argument you have there Kallend. So the cop did nothing wrong? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites warpedskydiver 0 #70 February 22, 2007 If he had it in his hand...no problem If he pointed it at an unidentified suspect after being alarmed by noises in a rural setting? no problem. If he pointed it at an officer who did not identify himself? Big problem for both of them. If the officer identified himself clearly there is a big problem for the homeowner. Do I believe any part of the story that the man came out wearing a ski mask and pointed it at a Police Officer? NO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #71 February 22, 2007 Everything you write suggests that citizens should approach cops as they would an adversary. This is an INAPPROPRIATE way of thinking about cops unless you are a criminal or living in a police state. Quote So what would the write answer be, you know the one that shows we aren't in a police state? Would approaching a police officer in a dark alley, unidentified, with your hand tacked into your jacket be a good way to ensure we aren't heading towards a police state? Tell me Kallend how many times have you been toe to toe with someone holding a gun to your head, how many times have you had to make the split second decision of whether or not to take a man's life? It's sad that you have such a disrespect for any type of authority figure that taking a few small steps to show them that you are a friend not a threat brings this country one step closer to being in a state of marshall law. And Livendive, I wasn't trying o say that the cop was completely innocent in this case, we don't know that yet. However his actions were greatly provoked by a homeowner approaching him with a firearm.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,683 #72 February 22, 2007 QuoteEverything you write suggests that citizens should approach cops as they would an adversary. This is an INAPPROPRIATE way of thinking about cops unless you are a criminal or living in a police state. Quote So what would the write answer be, you know the one that shows we aren't in a police state? Would approaching a police officer in a dark alley, unidentified, with your hand tacked into your jacket be a good way to ensure we aren't heading towards a police state? Tell me Kallend how many times have you been toe to toe with someone holding a gun to your head, how many times have you had to make the split second decision of whether or not to take a man's life? It's sad that you have such a disrespect for any type of authority figure that taking a few small steps to show them that you are a friend not a threat brings this country one step closer to being in a state of marshall law. And Livendive, I wasn't trying o say that the cop was completely innocent in this case, we don't know that yet. However his actions were greatly provoked by a homeowner approaching him with a firearm. I think that your view of things is distorted by your profession. Unlike the military, most of us are not trained to have adversarial relationships with the people we interact with on a daily basis, nor do we want such relationships. I certainly have never had an adversarial relationship with a cop, nor do I intend to start now. As far as judging this particular incident, I suggest we wait until some undisputed FACTS emerge.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,478 #73 February 22, 2007 >If he pointed it at an officer who did not identify himself? Big problem for both of them. ?? You would not point a gun at an intruder with a gun who acted threatening and did not identify himself? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Butters 0 #74 February 22, 2007 QuoteDo I believe any part of the story that the man came out wearing a ski mask and pointed it at a Police Officer? NO We make opinions based on what we have been told ... when what we have been told changes so will the opinions. (I don't belive it either but at this point it has not been denied.)"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #75 February 22, 2007 Unlike the military, most of us are not trained to have adversarial relationships with the people we interact with on a daily basis, nor do we want such relationships.Quote And you just proved that you have absolutely no idea how I interact with people on a daily basis while I am deployed downrange. You claim you don't want an adverserial relationship with a cop but refuse to show a little respect for the kind of mentality they could possibly have which is caused by people trying to kill them. It's not making them an adversary, its showing them respect, they have to make an assesment of every single person they approach and small step to help them make that assesment is not making them the bad guy, it's showing them you're willing to help. Tell me, what do you do when you are pulled over.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 3 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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warpedskydiver 0 #70 February 22, 2007 If he had it in his hand...no problem If he pointed it at an unidentified suspect after being alarmed by noises in a rural setting? no problem. If he pointed it at an officer who did not identify himself? Big problem for both of them. If the officer identified himself clearly there is a big problem for the homeowner. Do I believe any part of the story that the man came out wearing a ski mask and pointed it at a Police Officer? NO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #71 February 22, 2007 Everything you write suggests that citizens should approach cops as they would an adversary. This is an INAPPROPRIATE way of thinking about cops unless you are a criminal or living in a police state. Quote So what would the write answer be, you know the one that shows we aren't in a police state? Would approaching a police officer in a dark alley, unidentified, with your hand tacked into your jacket be a good way to ensure we aren't heading towards a police state? Tell me Kallend how many times have you been toe to toe with someone holding a gun to your head, how many times have you had to make the split second decision of whether or not to take a man's life? It's sad that you have such a disrespect for any type of authority figure that taking a few small steps to show them that you are a friend not a threat brings this country one step closer to being in a state of marshall law. And Livendive, I wasn't trying o say that the cop was completely innocent in this case, we don't know that yet. However his actions were greatly provoked by a homeowner approaching him with a firearm.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,683 #72 February 22, 2007 QuoteEverything you write suggests that citizens should approach cops as they would an adversary. This is an INAPPROPRIATE way of thinking about cops unless you are a criminal or living in a police state. Quote So what would the write answer be, you know the one that shows we aren't in a police state? Would approaching a police officer in a dark alley, unidentified, with your hand tacked into your jacket be a good way to ensure we aren't heading towards a police state? Tell me Kallend how many times have you been toe to toe with someone holding a gun to your head, how many times have you had to make the split second decision of whether or not to take a man's life? It's sad that you have such a disrespect for any type of authority figure that taking a few small steps to show them that you are a friend not a threat brings this country one step closer to being in a state of marshall law. And Livendive, I wasn't trying o say that the cop was completely innocent in this case, we don't know that yet. However his actions were greatly provoked by a homeowner approaching him with a firearm. I think that your view of things is distorted by your profession. Unlike the military, most of us are not trained to have adversarial relationships with the people we interact with on a daily basis, nor do we want such relationships. I certainly have never had an adversarial relationship with a cop, nor do I intend to start now. As far as judging this particular incident, I suggest we wait until some undisputed FACTS emerge.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,478 #73 February 22, 2007 >If he pointed it at an officer who did not identify himself? Big problem for both of them. ?? You would not point a gun at an intruder with a gun who acted threatening and did not identify himself? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Butters 0 #74 February 22, 2007 QuoteDo I believe any part of the story that the man came out wearing a ski mask and pointed it at a Police Officer? NO We make opinions based on what we have been told ... when what we have been told changes so will the opinions. (I don't belive it either but at this point it has not been denied.)"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #75 February 22, 2007 Unlike the military, most of us are not trained to have adversarial relationships with the people we interact with on a daily basis, nor do we want such relationships.Quote And you just proved that you have absolutely no idea how I interact with people on a daily basis while I am deployed downrange. You claim you don't want an adverserial relationship with a cop but refuse to show a little respect for the kind of mentality they could possibly have which is caused by people trying to kill them. It's not making them an adversary, its showing them respect, they have to make an assesment of every single person they approach and small step to help them make that assesment is not making them the bad guy, it's showing them you're willing to help. Tell me, what do you do when you are pulled over.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 3 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
kallend 1,683 #72 February 22, 2007 QuoteEverything you write suggests that citizens should approach cops as they would an adversary. This is an INAPPROPRIATE way of thinking about cops unless you are a criminal or living in a police state. Quote So what would the write answer be, you know the one that shows we aren't in a police state? Would approaching a police officer in a dark alley, unidentified, with your hand tacked into your jacket be a good way to ensure we aren't heading towards a police state? Tell me Kallend how many times have you been toe to toe with someone holding a gun to your head, how many times have you had to make the split second decision of whether or not to take a man's life? It's sad that you have such a disrespect for any type of authority figure that taking a few small steps to show them that you are a friend not a threat brings this country one step closer to being in a state of marshall law. And Livendive, I wasn't trying o say that the cop was completely innocent in this case, we don't know that yet. However his actions were greatly provoked by a homeowner approaching him with a firearm. I think that your view of things is distorted by your profession. Unlike the military, most of us are not trained to have adversarial relationships with the people we interact with on a daily basis, nor do we want such relationships. I certainly have never had an adversarial relationship with a cop, nor do I intend to start now. As far as judging this particular incident, I suggest we wait until some undisputed FACTS emerge.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,478 #73 February 22, 2007 >If he pointed it at an officer who did not identify himself? Big problem for both of them. ?? You would not point a gun at an intruder with a gun who acted threatening and did not identify himself? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Butters 0 #74 February 22, 2007 QuoteDo I believe any part of the story that the man came out wearing a ski mask and pointed it at a Police Officer? NO We make opinions based on what we have been told ... when what we have been told changes so will the opinions. (I don't belive it either but at this point it has not been denied.)"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #75 February 22, 2007 Unlike the military, most of us are not trained to have adversarial relationships with the people we interact with on a daily basis, nor do we want such relationships.Quote And you just proved that you have absolutely no idea how I interact with people on a daily basis while I am deployed downrange. You claim you don't want an adverserial relationship with a cop but refuse to show a little respect for the kind of mentality they could possibly have which is caused by people trying to kill them. It's not making them an adversary, its showing them respect, they have to make an assesment of every single person they approach and small step to help them make that assesment is not making them the bad guy, it's showing them you're willing to help. Tell me, what do you do when you are pulled over.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 3 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
billvon 2,478 #73 February 22, 2007 >If he pointed it at an officer who did not identify himself? Big problem for both of them. ?? You would not point a gun at an intruder with a gun who acted threatening and did not identify himself? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #74 February 22, 2007 QuoteDo I believe any part of the story that the man came out wearing a ski mask and pointed it at a Police Officer? NO We make opinions based on what we have been told ... when what we have been told changes so will the opinions. (I don't belive it either but at this point it has not been denied.)"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #75 February 22, 2007 Unlike the military, most of us are not trained to have adversarial relationships with the people we interact with on a daily basis, nor do we want such relationships.Quote And you just proved that you have absolutely no idea how I interact with people on a daily basis while I am deployed downrange. You claim you don't want an adverserial relationship with a cop but refuse to show a little respect for the kind of mentality they could possibly have which is caused by people trying to kill them. It's not making them an adversary, its showing them respect, they have to make an assesment of every single person they approach and small step to help them make that assesment is not making them the bad guy, it's showing them you're willing to help. Tell me, what do you do when you are pulled over.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 3 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
