pajarito 0 #676 January 15, 2007 QuoteThat's funny, you can't even say how you might react if you met some other god than yours when you die, but instead automatically revert to Jesus as fact with no possibility of any other religion being correct. That's because I no longer simply believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, I know it. It has become a reality in my life. Speculating on how I would react when faced with a false god would be make believe and a useless exercise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,279 #677 January 15, 2007 QuoteQuoteThat's funny, you can't even say how you might react if you met some other god than yours when you die, but instead automatically revert to Jesus as fact with no possibility of any other religion being correct. That's because I no longer simply believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, I know it. It has become a reality in my life. Speculating on how I would react when faced with a false god would be make believe and a useless exercise. Then why do you keep asking atheists and other non-christians how they'll react when they meet jesus? That question is just as pointless.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #678 January 15, 2007 QuoteCriteria for Biblical Canon 1. Apostolic authority 2. Age of text 3. Orthodoxy 4. Widespread acceptance You have got to be shitting me. None of these criteria provide any measure of the truth of the claims contained in the bible. It would be just as much use to stick "as seen on TV" in there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,679 #679 January 15, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteThe canonical and apocryphal books it distinguished in the following manner: in the house of God the books were placed down by the holy altar; then the council asked the Lord in prayer that the inspired works be found on top and--as in fact happened--the spurious on the bottom. Why would you object to this? Selections were made, and it seems that some system involving random chancewould at least give some avenue for divine selection if you believe in that sort of thing. I mean if you believe in divine guidance and the canonical "Word" including the translation process then why on earth would you get hot and bothered about the specifics of the mechanism. Criteria for Biblical Canon 1. Apostolic authority 2. Age of text 3. Orthodoxy 4. Widespread acceptance Pretty much the same criteria by which we know the Iliad is true and that Zeus exists. In 1500 years we can use it to show that the Gospel of the FSM is true too.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #680 January 15, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteThat's funny, you can't even say how you might react if you met some other god than yours when you die, but instead automatically revert to Jesus as fact with no possibility of any other religion being correct. That's because I no longer simply believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, I know it. It has become a reality in my life. Speculating on how I would react when faced with a false god would be make believe and a useless exercise. Then why do you keep asking atheists and other non-christians how they'll react when they meet jesus? That question is just as pointless. Have you ever told a lie, stolen, blasphemed, looked with lust at another woman (adultery of the heart), hated without cause (murderer at heart)? No false god of any other religion can save you from the penalty you must pay for your lawlessness. The Law convicts (that's its job) but it will not save you. When you meet Jesus, you will stand in righteous judgment for everything you have done. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unformed 0 #681 January 15, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThat's funny, you can't even say how you might react if you met some other god than yours when you die, but instead automatically revert to Jesus as fact with no possibility of any other religion being correct. That's because I no longer simply believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, I know it. It has become a reality in my life. Speculating on how I would react when faced with a false god would be make believe and a useless exercise. Then why do you keep asking atheists and other non-christians how they'll react when they meet jesus? That question is just as pointless. Have you ever told a lie, stolen, blasphemed, looked with lust at another woman (adultery of the heart), hated without cause (murderer at heart)? No false god of any other religion can save you from the penalty you must pay for your lawlessness. The Law convicts (that's its job) but it will not save you. When you meet Jesus, you will stand in righteous judgment for everything you have done. The Flying Spaghetti Monster is going to turn you into a meatball.This ad space for sale. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #682 January 15, 2007 QuotePretty much the same criteria by which we know the Iliad is true and that Zeus exists. In 1500 years we can use it to show that the Gospel of the FSM is true too. If you KNEW that the FSM was not true and that you just made it up, would you still hang on a cross for it in order to further your cause? You'd either have to be crazy (all of them?), insincere (no evidence for that), or sincere. These guys didn't just believe. They knew because they witnessed the fulfilled prophesy and miraculous events that occurred. 1. Peter – crucified 2. Andrew – crucified 3. Matthew – the sword 4. John – natural 5. James, son of Alphaeus – crucified 6. Philip – crucified 7. Simon – crucified 8. Thaddaeus – killed by arrows 9. James, brother of Jesus – stoned 10. Thomas – spear thrust 11. Bartholomew – crucified 12. James, son of Zebedee – the sword Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unformed 0 #683 January 15, 2007 QuoteQuotePretty much the same criteria by which we know the Iliad is true and that Zeus exists. In 1500 years we can use it to show that the Gospel of the FSM is true too. If you KNEW that the FSM was not true and that you just made it up, would you still hang on a cross for it in order to further your cause? You'd either have to be crazy or sincere. These guys didn't just believe. They knew because they witnessed the fulfilled prophesy and miraculous events that occurred. [a lit of martyrs]/reply] Heaven's Gate Just because people die for something doesn't mean that they're not deluded. Or the Heaven's Gate cult really was right.This ad space for sale. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,279 #684 January 15, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThat's funny, you can't even say how you might react if you met some other god than yours when you die, but instead automatically revert to Jesus as fact with no possibility of any other religion being correct. That's because I no longer simply believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, I know it. It has become a reality in my life. Speculating on how I would react when faced with a false god would be make believe and a useless exercise. Then why do you keep asking atheists and other non-christians how they'll react when they meet jesus? That question is just as pointless. Have you ever told a lie, stolen, blasphemed, looked with lust at another woman (adultery of the heart), hated without cause (murderer at heart)? No false god of any other religion can save you from the penalty you must pay for your lawlessness. The Law convicts (that's its job) but it will not save you. When you meet Jesus, you will stand in righteous judgment for everything you have done. You hear that wooshing sound? Thats the sound of the point flying clean over your head.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,279 #685 January 15, 2007 No no no, you see those people were only tricked into believing they were right. The disciples were different - the only explanation for their sacrifice is that Jesus really was the son of god - it would be ridiculous to suggest that they were also mistaken.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #686 January 15, 2007 QuoteJust because people die for something doesn't mean that they're not deluded. Or the Heaven's Gate cult really was right. I didn't say that. What I was trying to get across was that they were all sincere and that there is no evidence for the claim that they were all just crazy or dishonest (speaking of the apostles). They did not die for a lie. They "all" saw what they saw, held each other accountable to the truth, and died horrible deaths for it (didn't just drink the purple koolaide, if you will). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites unformed 0 #687 January 15, 2007 QuoteQuoteJust because people die for something doesn't mean that they're not deluded. Or the Heaven's Gate cult really was right. I didn't say that. What I was trying to get across was that they were all sincere and that there is no evidence for the claim that they were all just crazy or dishonest (speaking of the apostles). They did not die for a lie. They "all" saw what they saw, held each other accountable to the truth, and died horrible deaths for it (didn't just drink the purple koolaide, if you will). And the Heaven's Gate crowd truly, sincerely believed that they were going to be put on a spaceship when Haley's Comet flew by. Those people were good, hardworking people too. No evidence about them being crazy or dishonest at all. They were just looking for the truth where there was none to be found, and the guy who came to show them something (Marshall Applewhite) was just another delusional, charismatic fuck who had no intention to deceive them, but did anyways. Kind of like Jesus.This ad space for sale. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,679 #688 January 15, 2007 When you get to the bottom of the arguments about authenticity, martyrdom, age of evidence... There is STILL no proof that the Bible stories are a 100% accurate history (they can't be, given the contradictory nature of some of the stories), there is STILL no proof that they are divinely inspired, and there is STILL no evidence of supernatural intervention in the workings of the universe. THAT is why your religion involves FAITH. I have no objection whatsoever to faith, but don't try to pass it off as truth.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #689 January 15, 2007 QuoteAnd the Heaven's Gate crowd truly, sincerely believed that they were going to be put on a spaceship when Haley's Comet flew by. And the hijackers of the planes that flew into the World Trade Centers truly believed in what they were doing as well. I don’t doubt their sincerity. However, on what credible evidence did they base their beliefs? QuoteThose people were good, hardworking people too. No evidence about them being crazy or dishonest at all. How could you possibly know any of that? QuoteThey were just looking for the truth where there was none to be found, and the guy who came to show them something (Marshall Applewhite) was just another delusional, charismatic fuck who had no intention to deceive them, but did anyways. What did he have to back up his claims? What did he do in his life to back up his claims? QuoteKind of like Jesus. Not even close. Jesus was without sin, fulfilled prophesy, performed witnessed miracles, and defeated death which was also witnessed by many. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #690 January 15, 2007 QuoteHi, vpozzoli. I wanted to give you that analogy I was reminded of this afternoon that illustrates how comparing all those Greek manuscripts help scholars to know exactly what was contained in the original autographs. (This is an illustration a favorite teacher of mine uses.) OK. Suppose I write an entry in my journal, tear out the page and give it to you and ask you write a copy of it. When you're done, pass the original to someone else and ask them to copy it. And so on, until 10 handwritten copies (manuscripts) have been made. More than likely, every person will have made a mistake in copying. Perhaps an error in punctuation, omission of a word such as "the", a misspelling, or something. However, probably none of the copiers will have made the exact same mistake. If you were to take those 10 manuscripts and compare them, do you think you could reconstruct the original journal entry? Of course; if you run across an omitted word in one copy, all you have to do is look at the other 9 to see what word was omitted. This is why textual criticism can say that there is less than 1% unresolved variation among the thousands of Greek manuscripts, yet none of the differences are significant; they don't effect the doctrine taught in the bible. However, if there's a mistake in copy 1, chances are, the person copying it, if told to copy exactly, would copy that mistake. so, by the time you get to copy 10, all the mistakes from the prior copies are included, plus whatever mistake the last guy made. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #691 January 15, 2007 QuoteQuotePretty much the same criteria by which we know the Iliad is true and that Zeus exists. In 1500 years we can use it to show that the Gospel of the FSM is true too. If you KNEW that the FSM was not true and that you just made it up, would you still hang on a cross for it in order to further your cause? You'd either have to be crazy (all of them?), insincere (no evidence for that), or sincere. These guys didn't just believe. They knew because they witnessed the fulfilled prophesy and miraculous events that occurred. 1. Peter – crucified 2. Andrew – crucified 3. Matthew – the sword 4. John – natural 5. James, son of Alphaeus – crucified 6. Philip – crucified 7. Simon – crucified 8. Thaddaeus – killed by arrows 9. James, brother of Jesus – stoned 10. Thomas – spear thrust 11. Bartholomew – crucified 12. James, son of Zebedee – the sword 913 people died because they followed Jim Jones. I'd list the names, but there are just too many. You can find them here http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/AboutJonestown/WhoDied/whodied_list.php 39 people died because they followed Marshall Applewhite. 74 people died because they followed David Koresh. If they KNEW that what they were saying wasn't true and they just made it up, would they still have died for it in order to further their cause? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sweetmoose 0 #692 January 15, 2007 QuoteWell, with other gods it wouldn't really matter ... since they only care if you lived a good life. Part of the Hindu doctrine is that while praying daily and performing the religious rituals is important, taking care of yourself and your family is far more important, and if it came down to praying or going to work so you could feed our family, well, the choice is obvious. So, actually, if everybody believed in Christianity and followed Jesus' teachings, they'd be fine. Because, if Christianity is right, they'd be fine, and if the other religions are right, well, they lived a good life, so they'd be fine as well. I think fundamentalist Christianity is perfect for masochists who want to feel like they're really evil, naughty people and need to be constantly told that. Actually, if Islam is right, all the Christians will be going to hell for not believing in Allah, Mohammad, and the Koran. How does that make all you Christians feel, what will you say to Allah when you meet him, "I led a good life", sorry, you gotta be Muslim, ha ha, you lose!We die only once, but for such a very long time. I'll believe in ghosts when I catch one in my teeth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites unformed 0 #693 January 15, 2007 They're wrong.This ad space for sale. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sweetmoose 0 #694 January 15, 2007 I know they're wrong, you know they're wrong, I'm just saying, what if?We die only once, but for such a very long time. I'll believe in ghosts when I catch one in my teeth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,279 #695 January 15, 2007 QuoteAnd the hijackers of the planes that flew into the World Trade Centers truly believed in what they were doing as well. I don’t doubt their sincerity. However, on what credible evidence did they base their beliefs? Exactly!! I don't particularly doubt the sincerity of the gospel writers, but on what evidence did they base their beliefs? We know that many people these days can be willing to die for beliefs that have no observed basis in fact. We know that Charismatic 'faith healers' can convince entire congregations of witnesses that they are performing miracles on stage. We know that people are quite willing to continue to believe in lies even in the face of absolute proof positive that those beliefs are false (see the mormon forged documents thread for a start). In the face of this knowledge we absolutely cannot use the conviction of belief of the apostles as a measure of the truth of their beliefs. QuoteNot even close. Jesus was without sin, fulfilled prophesy, performed witnessed miracles, and defeated death which was also witnessed by many. Wooosh..... I think its getting higherDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #696 January 15, 2007 Quote913 people died because they followed Jim Jones. I'd list the names, but there are just too many. You can find them here http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/AboutJonestown/WhoDied/whodied_list.php 39 people died because they followed Marshall Applewhite. 74 people died because they followed David Koresh. There’s a big difference between the deaths of the Apostles and that of the countless of others we could mention who have given their lives for whatever cause they no doubt sincerely believed in. Eleven of the Apostles died martyrs deaths based on two things, the resurrection of Jesus Christ and their belief in him as the Son of God. What did they see and what would cause them to believe enough to endure the kind of death reserved for the worst criminals because it was so cruel and agonizing? If the resurrection did not occur, those who walked with Jesus certainly knew it. If they died how they did for a lie, then they knew it was a lie. That is hard to believe. One would have to be completely insane or deceived neither of which can be substantiated. You’d be hard pressed to find any number of people who would be willing to die for a lie if they knew it to be a lie. Therefore, it might be prudent for you to seriously consider their claims. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,279 #697 January 15, 2007 QuoteThere’s a big difference between the deaths of the Apostles and that of the countless of others we could mention who have given their lives for whatever cause they no doubt sincerely believed in. No there isn't. QuoteIf they died how they did for a lie, then they knew it was a lie. No they didn't.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #698 January 15, 2007 QuoteI don't particularly doubt the sincerity of the gospel writers, but on what evidence did they base their beliefs? They walked, talked, and lived with Jesus. They saw for themselves the torture, crucifixion, death, burial, resurrection, and ascension. That is the evidence on which they based their beliefs. That is the reason they were willing to die the way they did because they would not deny what they saw or speak about it. That is the reason why some took it to the extreme by requesting to be crucified head down because they didn’t feel worthy to die the way their Lord had died. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,679 #699 January 15, 2007 QuoteQuoteI don't particularly doubt the sincerity of the gospel writers, but on what evidence did they base their beliefs? They walked, talked, and lived with Jesus. They saw for themselves the torture, crucifixion, death, burial, resurrection, and ascension. That is the evidence on which they based their beliefs. That is the reason they were willing to die the way they did because they would not deny what they saw or speak about it. That is the reason why some took it to the extreme by requesting to be crucified head down because they didn’t feel worthy to die the way their Lord had died. So 21st century suicide bombers have divine inspiration too? Sorry, that's just not a valid argument for the truth of the Bible.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #700 January 15, 2007 QuoteSo 21st century suicide bombers have divine inspiration too? Sorry, that's just not a valid argument for the truth of the Bible. What are you talking about? 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jakee 1,279 #684 January 15, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThat's funny, you can't even say how you might react if you met some other god than yours when you die, but instead automatically revert to Jesus as fact with no possibility of any other religion being correct. That's because I no longer simply believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, I know it. It has become a reality in my life. Speculating on how I would react when faced with a false god would be make believe and a useless exercise. Then why do you keep asking atheists and other non-christians how they'll react when they meet jesus? That question is just as pointless. Have you ever told a lie, stolen, blasphemed, looked with lust at another woman (adultery of the heart), hated without cause (murderer at heart)? No false god of any other religion can save you from the penalty you must pay for your lawlessness. The Law convicts (that's its job) but it will not save you. When you meet Jesus, you will stand in righteous judgment for everything you have done. You hear that wooshing sound? Thats the sound of the point flying clean over your head.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,279 #685 January 15, 2007 No no no, you see those people were only tricked into believing they were right. The disciples were different - the only explanation for their sacrifice is that Jesus really was the son of god - it would be ridiculous to suggest that they were also mistaken.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #686 January 15, 2007 QuoteJust because people die for something doesn't mean that they're not deluded. Or the Heaven's Gate cult really was right. I didn't say that. What I was trying to get across was that they were all sincere and that there is no evidence for the claim that they were all just crazy or dishonest (speaking of the apostles). They did not die for a lie. They "all" saw what they saw, held each other accountable to the truth, and died horrible deaths for it (didn't just drink the purple koolaide, if you will). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unformed 0 #687 January 15, 2007 QuoteQuoteJust because people die for something doesn't mean that they're not deluded. Or the Heaven's Gate cult really was right. I didn't say that. What I was trying to get across was that they were all sincere and that there is no evidence for the claim that they were all just crazy or dishonest (speaking of the apostles). They did not die for a lie. They "all" saw what they saw, held each other accountable to the truth, and died horrible deaths for it (didn't just drink the purple koolaide, if you will). And the Heaven's Gate crowd truly, sincerely believed that they were going to be put on a spaceship when Haley's Comet flew by. Those people were good, hardworking people too. No evidence about them being crazy or dishonest at all. They were just looking for the truth where there was none to be found, and the guy who came to show them something (Marshall Applewhite) was just another delusional, charismatic fuck who had no intention to deceive them, but did anyways. Kind of like Jesus.This ad space for sale. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,679 #688 January 15, 2007 When you get to the bottom of the arguments about authenticity, martyrdom, age of evidence... There is STILL no proof that the Bible stories are a 100% accurate history (they can't be, given the contradictory nature of some of the stories), there is STILL no proof that they are divinely inspired, and there is STILL no evidence of supernatural intervention in the workings of the universe. THAT is why your religion involves FAITH. I have no objection whatsoever to faith, but don't try to pass it off as truth.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #689 January 15, 2007 QuoteAnd the Heaven's Gate crowd truly, sincerely believed that they were going to be put on a spaceship when Haley's Comet flew by. And the hijackers of the planes that flew into the World Trade Centers truly believed in what they were doing as well. I don’t doubt their sincerity. However, on what credible evidence did they base their beliefs? QuoteThose people were good, hardworking people too. No evidence about them being crazy or dishonest at all. How could you possibly know any of that? QuoteThey were just looking for the truth where there was none to be found, and the guy who came to show them something (Marshall Applewhite) was just another delusional, charismatic fuck who had no intention to deceive them, but did anyways. What did he have to back up his claims? What did he do in his life to back up his claims? QuoteKind of like Jesus. Not even close. Jesus was without sin, fulfilled prophesy, performed witnessed miracles, and defeated death which was also witnessed by many. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #690 January 15, 2007 QuoteHi, vpozzoli. I wanted to give you that analogy I was reminded of this afternoon that illustrates how comparing all those Greek manuscripts help scholars to know exactly what was contained in the original autographs. (This is an illustration a favorite teacher of mine uses.) OK. Suppose I write an entry in my journal, tear out the page and give it to you and ask you write a copy of it. When you're done, pass the original to someone else and ask them to copy it. And so on, until 10 handwritten copies (manuscripts) have been made. More than likely, every person will have made a mistake in copying. Perhaps an error in punctuation, omission of a word such as "the", a misspelling, or something. However, probably none of the copiers will have made the exact same mistake. If you were to take those 10 manuscripts and compare them, do you think you could reconstruct the original journal entry? Of course; if you run across an omitted word in one copy, all you have to do is look at the other 9 to see what word was omitted. This is why textual criticism can say that there is less than 1% unresolved variation among the thousands of Greek manuscripts, yet none of the differences are significant; they don't effect the doctrine taught in the bible. However, if there's a mistake in copy 1, chances are, the person copying it, if told to copy exactly, would copy that mistake. so, by the time you get to copy 10, all the mistakes from the prior copies are included, plus whatever mistake the last guy made. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #691 January 15, 2007 QuoteQuotePretty much the same criteria by which we know the Iliad is true and that Zeus exists. In 1500 years we can use it to show that the Gospel of the FSM is true too. If you KNEW that the FSM was not true and that you just made it up, would you still hang on a cross for it in order to further your cause? You'd either have to be crazy (all of them?), insincere (no evidence for that), or sincere. These guys didn't just believe. They knew because they witnessed the fulfilled prophesy and miraculous events that occurred. 1. Peter – crucified 2. Andrew – crucified 3. Matthew – the sword 4. John – natural 5. James, son of Alphaeus – crucified 6. Philip – crucified 7. Simon – crucified 8. Thaddaeus – killed by arrows 9. James, brother of Jesus – stoned 10. Thomas – spear thrust 11. Bartholomew – crucified 12. James, son of Zebedee – the sword 913 people died because they followed Jim Jones. I'd list the names, but there are just too many. You can find them here http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/AboutJonestown/WhoDied/whodied_list.php 39 people died because they followed Marshall Applewhite. 74 people died because they followed David Koresh. If they KNEW that what they were saying wasn't true and they just made it up, would they still have died for it in order to further their cause? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sweetmoose 0 #692 January 15, 2007 QuoteWell, with other gods it wouldn't really matter ... since they only care if you lived a good life. Part of the Hindu doctrine is that while praying daily and performing the religious rituals is important, taking care of yourself and your family is far more important, and if it came down to praying or going to work so you could feed our family, well, the choice is obvious. So, actually, if everybody believed in Christianity and followed Jesus' teachings, they'd be fine. Because, if Christianity is right, they'd be fine, and if the other religions are right, well, they lived a good life, so they'd be fine as well. I think fundamentalist Christianity is perfect for masochists who want to feel like they're really evil, naughty people and need to be constantly told that. Actually, if Islam is right, all the Christians will be going to hell for not believing in Allah, Mohammad, and the Koran. How does that make all you Christians feel, what will you say to Allah when you meet him, "I led a good life", sorry, you gotta be Muslim, ha ha, you lose!We die only once, but for such a very long time. I'll believe in ghosts when I catch one in my teeth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unformed 0 #693 January 15, 2007 They're wrong.This ad space for sale. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sweetmoose 0 #694 January 15, 2007 I know they're wrong, you know they're wrong, I'm just saying, what if?We die only once, but for such a very long time. I'll believe in ghosts when I catch one in my teeth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,279 #695 January 15, 2007 QuoteAnd the hijackers of the planes that flew into the World Trade Centers truly believed in what they were doing as well. I don’t doubt their sincerity. However, on what credible evidence did they base their beliefs? Exactly!! I don't particularly doubt the sincerity of the gospel writers, but on what evidence did they base their beliefs? We know that many people these days can be willing to die for beliefs that have no observed basis in fact. We know that Charismatic 'faith healers' can convince entire congregations of witnesses that they are performing miracles on stage. We know that people are quite willing to continue to believe in lies even in the face of absolute proof positive that those beliefs are false (see the mormon forged documents thread for a start). In the face of this knowledge we absolutely cannot use the conviction of belief of the apostles as a measure of the truth of their beliefs. QuoteNot even close. Jesus was without sin, fulfilled prophesy, performed witnessed miracles, and defeated death which was also witnessed by many. Wooosh..... I think its getting higherDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #696 January 15, 2007 Quote913 people died because they followed Jim Jones. I'd list the names, but there are just too many. You can find them here http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/AboutJonestown/WhoDied/whodied_list.php 39 people died because they followed Marshall Applewhite. 74 people died because they followed David Koresh. There’s a big difference between the deaths of the Apostles and that of the countless of others we could mention who have given their lives for whatever cause they no doubt sincerely believed in. Eleven of the Apostles died martyrs deaths based on two things, the resurrection of Jesus Christ and their belief in him as the Son of God. What did they see and what would cause them to believe enough to endure the kind of death reserved for the worst criminals because it was so cruel and agonizing? If the resurrection did not occur, those who walked with Jesus certainly knew it. If they died how they did for a lie, then they knew it was a lie. That is hard to believe. One would have to be completely insane or deceived neither of which can be substantiated. You’d be hard pressed to find any number of people who would be willing to die for a lie if they knew it to be a lie. Therefore, it might be prudent for you to seriously consider their claims. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,279 #697 January 15, 2007 QuoteThere’s a big difference between the deaths of the Apostles and that of the countless of others we could mention who have given their lives for whatever cause they no doubt sincerely believed in. No there isn't. QuoteIf they died how they did for a lie, then they knew it was a lie. No they didn't.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #698 January 15, 2007 QuoteI don't particularly doubt the sincerity of the gospel writers, but on what evidence did they base their beliefs? They walked, talked, and lived with Jesus. They saw for themselves the torture, crucifixion, death, burial, resurrection, and ascension. That is the evidence on which they based their beliefs. That is the reason they were willing to die the way they did because they would not deny what they saw or speak about it. That is the reason why some took it to the extreme by requesting to be crucified head down because they didn’t feel worthy to die the way their Lord had died. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,679 #699 January 15, 2007 QuoteQuoteI don't particularly doubt the sincerity of the gospel writers, but on what evidence did they base their beliefs? They walked, talked, and lived with Jesus. They saw for themselves the torture, crucifixion, death, burial, resurrection, and ascension. That is the evidence on which they based their beliefs. That is the reason they were willing to die the way they did because they would not deny what they saw or speak about it. That is the reason why some took it to the extreme by requesting to be crucified head down because they didn’t feel worthy to die the way their Lord had died. So 21st century suicide bombers have divine inspiration too? Sorry, that's just not a valid argument for the truth of the Bible.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #700 January 15, 2007 QuoteSo 21st century suicide bombers have divine inspiration too? Sorry, that's just not a valid argument for the truth of the Bible. What are you talking about? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
