philh 0 #1 November 27, 2006 I have heard many time from religious people that religion is required for morality. The question is often posed to me as a non beliver, why dont I go out and kill if I do not believe in god? My answer is simple, that we have evolved brains that can work out that constant violence is not in our mutual interest. Morality evolves, it has been and will continue to do so. But on a dull day at work with nothing to do I decdied to put something to the test. If as theists claim adandoning god leads to ruin then there should be some direct evidence of this. I decided to corrleate non beliefe with the murder rate in the worlds 15 weaalthiest nations. In order to try and compare like with like I chose the top 15 wealtheist nations in the world, I ignored small banking islands by excluding any nation with less than 1 mio people and ignored countries who were not democracies. This I believe enables us to compare similar socio economic conditions. If the theists are right there should be a high correlation between unbelievers and the murder rate. I used data from Wipedia and average data from http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html what did I get? a negative correlation of -.317. I then thought maybe I can make my results more accurate. After all there is easyly accesible data on gdp per head rates. Its not unreasonbale to assume the richer one is the less likely one is to commit a murder. So I adjusted the crime rates to be wieghted by the differential gdp rates. That way I believe my comparsion is even more "like with like". What did I get then? -.37. So next time a theist says religion is needed for moralty ask them why I didnt get a high positive correlation, indeed why did I get a negative corrleation? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wuffo2 0 #2 November 27, 2006 QuoteI have heard many time from religious people that religion is required for morality. The question is often posed to me as a non beliver, why dont I go out and kill if I do not believe in god? My answer is simple, that we have evolved brains that can work out that constant violence is not in our mutual interest. Morality evolves, it has been and will continue to do so. But on a dull day at work with nothing to do I decdied to put something to the test. If as theists claim adandoning god leads to ruin then there should be some direct evidence of this. I decided to corrleate non beliefe with the murder rate in the worlds 15 weaalthiest nations. In order to try and compare like with like I chose the top 15 wealtheist nations in the world, I ignored small banking islands by excluding any nation with less than 1 mio people and ignored countries who were not democracies. This I believe enables us to compare similar socio economic conditions. If the theists are right there should be a high correlation between unbelievers and the murder rate. I used data from Wipedia and average data from http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html what did I get? a negative correlation of -.317. I then thought maybe I can make my results more accurate. After all there is easyly accesible data on gdp per head rates. Its not unreasonbale to assume the richer one is the less likely one is to commit a murder. So I adjusted the crime rates to be wieghted by the differential gdp rates. That way I believe my comparsion is even more "like with like". What did I get then? -.37. So next time a theist says religion is needed for moralty ask them why I didnt get a high positive correlation, indeed why did I get a negative corrleation?My god man. You're doing WAY to much thinking Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #3 November 27, 2006 Like my mothers holier than thou religous ex-partner that would preach christianity and morality and question my self an my brothers ethics for not attending church and the mother fucker blames my brother (that is open about his liking of porn) on the 'teen' porn found on my mums computer. he lied to try to cover his ass but didn't realise the honesty within our family and made himself look like a schmuck, he then dumped my old lady for another unsuspecting woman and still preaches his faith and morality. the bible can forgive any sin if it is interpreted in your favour. not all christians are like that but many are!"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #4 November 27, 2006 Very interesting. Thanks for posting this.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #5 November 27, 2006 Quotenot all christians are like that but many are! all that from a sample size of 1.... why aren't you working for MIT or CERN? Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #6 November 27, 2006 Religion is simply a roadmap. It is not necessarily needed for morality (people's standard). God's moral law is written on the hearts of all people whether they believe or not. However, ALL fall short of God's standard and are guilty (including Christians). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #7 November 27, 2006 Given that In Chrstian belief god created us and our nature maybe he set the standard too high if everyone falls short? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #8 November 27, 2006 QuoteGiven that In Chrstian belief god created us and our nature maybe he set the standard too high if everyone falls short? Why? So you could be equal with God? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #9 November 27, 2006 QuoteGiven that In Chrstian belief god created us and our nature maybe he set the standard too high if everyone falls short? Perhaps "The Designer" just did a rotten job.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #10 November 27, 2006 QuoteQuoteGiven that In Chrstian belief god created us and our nature maybe he set the standard too high if everyone falls short? Perhaps "The Designer" just did a rotten job. People make their own choices. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,257 #11 November 27, 2006 QuoteGod's moral law is written on the hearts of all people whether they believe or not. Thats lucky, 'cos a lot of the moral law written in the bible is atrocious.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #12 November 27, 2006 QuoteThats lucky, 'cos a lot of the moral law written in the bible is atrocious. There's civil, ceremonial, and moral law recorded in the Bible. They differ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,257 #13 November 27, 2006 QuoteQuoteThats lucky, 'cos a lot of the moral law written in the bible is atrocious. There's civil, ceremonial, and moral law recorded in the Bible. They differ. I seem to remember that god was hot on striking down those who disobeyed his moral laws back in those days. The israelites were never punished for their shockingly evil civil laws, ipso facto God approved of them. They may not be moral laws that the bible obliges us to follow today, but they are examples of behaviour that god finds morally acceptable.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #14 November 27, 2006 QuoteQuoteThats lucky, 'cos a lot of the moral law written in the bible is atrocious. There's civil, ceremonial, and moral law recorded in the Bible. They differ. Unfortunately they do not seem to be well differentiated, and different people differentiate them in different ways.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,257 #15 November 27, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteThats lucky, 'cos a lot of the moral law written in the bible is atrocious. There's civil, ceremonial, and moral law recorded in the Bible. They differ. Unfortunately they do not seem to well differentiated, and different people differentiate them in different ways. That too. As an aside to Paj - the hotel that hosts the British Parachute Ass'n AGM (and pissup) has a 10 foot high statue of Poseidon in their foyer. Is that one of the ten most immoral things they could do?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #16 November 27, 2006 This is a conversation I had with a religious person ... Person: Without religion, what is to stop you from killing someone? Me: The fact that I would be killing someone. Person: But there aren't any repercussions, you won't go to hell. It is frightening that there exist people who believe that without religion there would be no morality (and would kill someone if they didn't fear going to hell)."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #17 November 27, 2006 QuoteI seem to remember that god was hot on striking down those who disobeyed his moral laws back in those days. Still is. He's just withholding judgment now. QuoteThe israelites were never punished for their shockingly evil civil laws, ipso facto God approved of them. There's a difference between tolerance and approval. QuoteThey may not be moral laws that the bible obliges us to follow today, but they are examples of behaviour that god finds morally acceptable. It's an example of his long suffering patience. Not his acceptance. All sin will be punished. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #18 November 27, 2006 QuoteAs an aside to Paj - the hotel that hosts the British Parachute Ass'n AGM (and pissup) has a 10 foot high statue of Poseidon in their foyer. Is that one of the ten most immoral things they could do? Only if it represents what they worship above God. Is it an idol or just a statue? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,257 #19 November 27, 2006 QuoteThere's a difference between tolerance and approval. He chose the Israelites above all others to carry his message. He must have thought they were doing something right. And remember that those 'civil' laws of theirs were based on their religion.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #20 November 27, 2006 QuoteQuotenot all christians are like that but many are! all that from a sample size of 1.... why aren't you working for MIT or CERN? Either of those associated with CHAOS? (That is who I work for)." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #21 November 27, 2006 Quote God's moral law is written on the hearts of all people whether they believe or not. That's well put. Quote However, ALL fall short of God's standard and are guilty (including Christians). Argue for your own limitations, and they are yours to keep.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #22 November 27, 2006 Quote He's... God is a "He"? You're joking, right? If God is everywhere, don't you think it transcends gender? God makes much more sense as a verb, rather than a noun.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #23 November 27, 2006 Wait ... are you trying to say that God isn't an elderly white man with flowing white hair and beard ... blasphemy. "That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #24 November 27, 2006 QuoteArgue for your own limitations, and they are yours to keep. Why? Do you think you've lived up to God's moral law? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #25 November 27, 2006 QuoteGod is a "He"? You're joking, right? If God is everywhere, don't you think it transcends gender? God makes much more sense as a verb, rather than a noun. God has revealed Himself in three ways: In creation, in the Bible, and in Jesus (Rom. 1:18-20; 1 Cor. 15:3; John 5:39; Acts 10:43; Heb. 1:1-3; John 14:9). Jesus was a man. God does transcend gender. However, that's the reason we refer to him in the masculine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
